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Old 09-17-2007, 07:06 PM   #1
whitemikecn
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Default Is the Hydra right for me?

I talked to Jonathon at World One today and discussed my plans for my STi. I am planning on slowly increasing my car to a stage 4+. I am currently bone stock and running the stock ECU. The first upgrade I have descided to do is an EMS whether it be a stand alone or a piggy back. My background is all RWD cars and I have no tuning expierence nor do I have a Reputable tuner in my area(Jacksonville, FL). There is someone who comes to Subaru of Jax every other month or so from Georgia and is a well known tuner (Forgot his name but Johnathon knew him). My question is with my history and also my future plans for the car should I get the Hydra? I dont wanna have to buy 2 EMS systems meaning buy a simple one now and then the stand alone later down the road. Let me know your opinions.

Thank you in advance,
Christopher M Peters
Jacksonville, FL
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Old 09-17-2007, 10:29 PM   #2
offset
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The info you provided doesn't really cover what is needed to make that decision. Some better info is what are your plans with the car in terms of driving (pure race track car, drag car, daily driver, auto-x, some combination, etc.). Do you aspire to tweak and tune your EMS yourself? Do you have alternate transportation if your Subie isn't running? Do you want to be able to pass any emissions tests (I don't think FL has any, but do you plan on moving or anything else)? Do you have the financial means to support your vision? Along with that, how long do you think it will take before you are at Stage 4+? Answers like that better help determine if it is right for you.

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Old 09-17-2007, 11:09 PM   #3
whitemikecn
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I plan to be at stage 4 in about 12 to 18 months....

Daily driver with some auto X thrown in.

Money is not an object.

I would like to be able to tweak and tune the car myself but honestly and bluntly i dont know how..... I would like to learn though but there isnt really anyone in Jacksonville to teach me.

No I dont plan on moving but if I did move it would be to NJ or Alabama. There are ways around emmissions.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:39 AM   #4
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"Is the Hydra right for me?"

"Daily driver with some auto X thrown in."

"Stage 4+ eventually"

"I have no tuning expierence nor do I have a Reputable tuner in my area(Jacksonville, FL)"

I see zero reason for you to get a Hydra.
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Old 09-18-2007, 11:35 AM   #5
whitemikecn
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First off I meant to say that I plan on being at stage 4 in 12-18 months.

Mind telling me what EMS you think I should get?

Chris
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:06 PM   #6
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UTEC Delta seems appropriate.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:05 PM   #7
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Accessport.
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Old 09-18-2007, 01:10 PM   #8
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But then you're limited to the stock MAF sensor range, that's why I suggested the Delta.
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:33 PM   #9
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Each computer option has it's pros and cons and of course everyone has their opinion. What it boils down to is you have to trust someone. Who do you trust when everyone has a different opinion?

I can tell you that the Element Hydra is not often the first choice but for almost all of our customers it's their final choice. About 90% of our customers have a UTEC, a reflash, or a combination of both. In every case it's not the power output that swings them towards a Hydra it's drivability issues or concerns of reliability. How can this be when everyone says the OEM ecu has the best drivability? It's because not all parts work together in harmony with reflashes and piggy back computers. A Hydra will not limit you and you will be able to make any parts work.

If money is really no object the Element Hydra is the clear choice because you can fly me in to tune your car It's awfully cold here in DC during the winter months

I literally had a customer I tuned this past weekend who has had a Hydra for about 1.5 years unused and he had a setup that was really ideal for this computer. A Legacy GT, with a big turbocharger, custom fuel system, big injectors, built engine, and various reflashes and piggy backs etc. Making power for him was not the problem it was nagging drivability issues off of idle, lack of crispness in response, and flatness when shifting. I worked with him to understand his desires and fears and wow did he have a ton but ultimately I didn't give him more power, I actually gave him a little less as I felt it would be more reliable and I addressed all those drivability issues. For once he was finally happy with how his car ran.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 09-21-2007, 04:01 PM   #10
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How is reliability a concern with a stock ECU? I just don't see there being a reliability issue, especially enough of one for you to use it as a selling point for your 'system'. The factory ECU is quite robust and you don't have to deal with an adaptor loom which is easily damaged.

To the OP, I agree with jblaine, there is no reason for you to spend the loot on a Hydra. Save your clams and have a good tuner calibrate your factory ECU.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:53 PM   #11
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I was referring to the reliability in the tuning and not in the hardware. The Hydra has better knock detection due to a fully tunable knock detection curve with adjustable ignition timing pull and fuel add per knock count and "tune" stability over the OEM ecu. The OEM ecu uses dynamic ignition timing coupled with a knock system that cannot differentiate between noise and knock at high rpm yet uses this to determine ignition timing which is not reliable for a high output engine. Also some of the versions of the OEM ecu have to wait a full pull before it will react to the detonation and switch its timing curve after a certain RPM.

If an individual is planning on a STG4 setup (800cc+, 35R) a Hydra is absolutely something to consider now avoiding having to switch products in the future.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:38 PM   #12
no-coast-punk
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An accessport tuned correctly with a blow through MAF will support enough power for 130mph trap speeds (500 -> 550 whp on a dyno dynamics). Past that it is maxed out.

As for the knock correction on the top end. You have just as much timing/knock control with the factory ECU if you know which tables to play with.

Other things to consider with the AP. Factory drivability. No stupid ass idle issues with the A/C on. Fault code readout. Dare i say *gasp* cruise control. Car starts instantly. Much less expensive. Great support. Constant *free* updates. None of the other headaches that come with a standalone.

If you really want a standalone wait until the p&p Autronics are out.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:17 PM   #13
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My thoughts are if you are plan'n on going stage 4+ the Hydra isn't a bad investment

I have a built motor, rods, pistons, cams, 30R size turbo
Phil has my car idle'n like stock and Daily driving is also stock like

I'm kinda like you, except I went Utec first, intake & exhuast. I bought a FMIC, now I was going to purchase the Hydra when I purchased my Upgraded turbo. Well I was driving home from work and one of the pipes pop'd off and my car died going about 70mph NOT COOL and I couldn't find the pipe that came off because at a glance it appeared that it was still on, so I had to get my car Towed. Had I bought the Hydra before hand my car would have simply just not be able to produce boost and I would have been able to drive home and save myself the $150 tow fee
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk View Post
An accessport tuned correctly with a blow through MAF will support enough power for 130mph trap speeds (500 -> 550 whp on a dyno dynamics). Past that it is maxed out.

As for the knock correction on the top end. You have just as much timing/knock control with the factory ECU if you know which tables to play with.

Other things to consider with the AP. Factory drivability. No stupid ass idle issues with the A/C on. Fault code readout. Dare i say *gasp* cruise control. Car starts instantly. Much less expensive. Great support. Constant *free* updates. None of the other headaches that come with a standalone.

If you really want a standalone wait until the p&p Autronics are out.
Maybe if you had purchased your Hydra through Element Tuning or had someone who knew how to tune a Hydra correctly you wouldn't have had these issues.

You do not have nearly the same control with the OEM ecu as you have with the Hydra. Explain to me in detail with a side by side comparison so I can be enlightened. Please don't forget I helped develop the Unichip and the UTEC when I worked for TurboXS and I had one of the very first Ecutek programs in the US before it was released to the public. I currently still tune UTECs, I keep up to date with current reflashing software to stay abreast of changes, I have tuned AEM on 700 hp Skylines, Haltechs, Link, and Autronic (which doesn't have any knock control by the way).

You're basically a one man badmouthing show and it's clearly obvious it's your mission to go out of your way to bad mouth the Hydra regardless of everyone else's success with the product. If you think the Subaru community can't see right through you, you are sadly mistaken and marketing another company's product by badmouthing another is hardly effective. We've sold over 1000 Hydras to the Subaru community and we've only had a handful of problems that were dealt with promptly. Nothing is perfect but we are listening to the community to make it even better.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 09-26-2007, 12:54 PM   #15
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Phil I have a little challenge for you.

You really believe in this system and the new software that much? Let me know when the new firmware is out in the final public release form.

Put your money where your mouth is. I will send you the unit out of my RS. You update it to the newest firmware at no charge (why the hell should customers have to pay for updates anyway). You change any configuration issues that I am locked out of that you think were done in-correctly. You tell me EXACTLY which USB adapter to use (I currently use an IO-gear GUC232a and a shiny new dual core laptop with 0 issues with every other standalone made).

I will play with the unit for a month (I have after all been playing with this system going on 3 years now and have learned a few things). I will report objectively what I find. If I can't get it running correctly I will call my MR2 guy that loves the system just to eliminate the possibility that I don't know what I'm doing.

If the new firmware elevates this unit out of the realm of steaming piles of doggy waste and it turns out to be a good viable system I will change my ways. I will publicly apologize. I will go back and edit EVERY single one of my posts that ever said anything bad about the unit and I will tell people on the internet and in person that it is a viable system.

If the unit and interface is no better and I'm still fighting hiccups and intermittent drivability/stability issues I won't be happy. I am going to punch a few holes in it with a high powered rifle on video just to vent years of frustration with the system. Post the pictures and video far and wide with my findings and convert the RS to an autronic. I will also continue to voice my opinions here. I will also get the other behind the scenes tuners I know to begin voicing their opinions as well.

**************
Everything below this point is meaningless and should not be read by those who have already formed an opinion either way
**************

Hmm... unichips and Utec's.... another pair of stellar engine management systems renowned for their smooth hiccup free drivability and total lack of reliability issues. Back in the day when they were the only options... ok great.

Lets not turn this into personal attacks. I've never said anything in public or private other than you were a nice guy that knew what you were doing. You just had the misfortune of becoming hitched to a really bad system. With time you have found ways to sort of kludge things together to make it work ok.

I tried buying a system through you years ago ('04) when I did the STi thing in my RS. You would have none of it so I had to turn to a few back channel means to get a box. I really sincerely believed that it was the way to go based on the whisperings I had read on the forums at the time. I am really not a close minded person and try every promising thing once. After taking delivery of my box I was awestruck at how truly bad a software package could be.

After screwing with trying to get my box running right for over a year I called in a local Colorado guy who has been dealing with these on the MR2's longer than you have been dealing with these systems on the subies.

After a quick road tuning session he basically turned to me and said "so what's the problem? I can't make any improvements. This is as good as it gets". I was like "what about the throttle response, or the idle issues, or etc." He was basically like... well... live with it.

Bottom line is that somehow the community has been duped into believing through the years that they need to make sacrifices in drivability and deal with little hiccups. That a certain degree of "just living with it" needs to be reached.

As for being able to deal with issues promptly... I personally know this to be absolutely un-true after dealing with a handful of cars from out of state that dealt with lingering issues for MONTHS.

I wrote an e-mail to you after a frustrating 7 hours trying to get a car to start and idle correctly. This was after a week of going back and forth with various unlocked maps just to get the car to communicate. Your response was basically "You will never be able to get a car to idle at anything but 1,500 at a 10:1 AFR with big cams and big injectors on this system". This was the car that finally broke the camels back for me. After dealing with this car I vowed to never touch a Hydra system. We sold the customer an Autronic and the thing runs peachey.

I know I go out of my way to badmouth the system. Because I'm tired of seeing cars that have tons of money dumped into them that won't bloody run right or as well as they could.

Sure many people have great success with the system. Would their cars run better on a different system? I believe so. Are they willing to just "live with it". Yeah.

Nobody really says boo when things go wrong because they assume they are a totally unique case. When they do say they are having issues they basically get told "**** N00B".

When I do speak up I get a flood of PM's. Or like in that other idle/throttle issue thread. Half the posts are "hey, yeah! Me too!"

I don't care about how much control a system offers or all the gee whiz features it has or what other people have to say. I don't care about knock control. Dig up some of the arguments Drac9 and I get into with clark on that topic. If knock control is really that big of an issue... you can build knock correction maps for an autronic and use an input from a knock sensor.

The ONLY thing I care about is if a car runs correctly with 0 issues from idle to full boost under all throttle conditions for years to come on 100% of the cars it's running. Will this ever happen? No. But the Hydra has done nothing but prove to me that it will not fit this bill.

This is why I use AP's on any car making enough power to run high 10's. Not because of all the gee whiz features. But because it's cheap and the cars run perfectly for a very long time. Hell... the 4wd rally class winner at the pikes peak hill climb this year was running an AP. All the open class rally guys in this country run an Autronic or something on the Motec/Pectel level. You will not see one single Hydra because reliability issues are not acceptable.

There is a reason I like certain systems. That is because they have proven themselves to work predictably under whatever condition is thrown at them. Is the Autronic perfect? God no. Is the AP perfect? God no. Do they work way better and more consistently than the Hydra? God yes.

CN: I have nothing against Phil or the Hydra because they are Phil or the Hydra. I just don't like the Hydra in its current form because it's a buggy steaming pile of garbage and there are better cheaper alternatives out there. I would be doing the community a big disservice to not speak up about these better cheaper alternatives.

Last edited by no-coast-punk; 09-26-2007 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 09-26-2007, 02:28 PM   #16
jblaine
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Mind elaborating on your (not your friend's friend's) troubles with the Hydra on 2002+ Subarus?

You purchased a custom Hydra setup from Andrew Nam @ HydraEMS-NA for an RS, which Phil outright told you he could not help you with whatsoever. That is, you pointedly walked into a brand new platform's 1st generation for a car that was unsupported by anyone with any experience on it whatsoever.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=174
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=175

* Then you talked to some MR2 guy who fed you an answer you took at face value as truth, because frankly, you had nobody else to talk to about your one-off setup.

* You had some sort of IAT voltage issue in 4/2006. The outcome of that situation was never verbalized. I would certainly imagine that could cause some effed-up drivability, but perhaps you got it all sorted out.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=993865

There are, however, clearly people who got it to work and were happy with the results on their RSes.

"The car runs amazingly well" : http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1246027

And user "HOK" went through a lot of "single guy wandering in the dark" issues but got it all working just fine and was very happy with it. That was in 2004 no less.

But in the end, none of this matters. We all understand very clearly that you are very unhappy with your 1st generation Hydra or whatever you seem to have. Your connectivity issue is retarded and totally irrelevant to keep bringing up. There is CLEARLY something wrong with the Hydra in question and this is easily tested with any laptop having an actual serial port (should fail for you). That you think it is a chronic "Hydra problem" when however many people have told you theirs works fine, even with USB-to-serial adapters, is really reaching and kind of sad.

By all means, if you could construct an accurate depiction of exactly the problems you had and exactly what you tried to fix them that failed, I'm sure a lot more people would take your ex-customer ranting seriously.

Customer 1:
What car?
What engine mods?
What problems?
What did you try?

Customer 2:
What car?
What engine mods?
What problems?
What did you try?

Customer 2:
What car?
What engine mods?
What problems?
What did you try?
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Old 09-26-2007, 04:07 PM   #17
NvisionSTI
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well refering to the topic of the thread a ap ecutek or something along those lines should be sufficient enough for what you want.
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Old 09-26-2007, 05:43 PM   #18
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no-coast-punk,

Send me an PM or an email with your real name and your email address because I don't know who you are (I will not make your information public). I will dig up any old email correspondence between us so I can wrap my head around your history of problems and contact with me. I have never refused a sale inside the US unless I truly felt the customer was incapable of tuning the product given a lack of base maps on our part.

I'm not disputing you've had problems but you're making huge generalizations about a product, that has thousands of happy customers, but in the end it's merely a tool. Set up correctly and in the right hands it can do wonders, setup incorrectly and put in the wrong hands it's as useless as the next product will be.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:03 PM   #19
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well do your research , cuz there is a great tuner in JAX FL PDP right next to jax. subaru .
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Old 10-03-2007, 01:11 AM   #20
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I think its easier to pay Phil his technical support fee since the Hydra was not purchased from him. It would save you a lot of time setting up your car correctly and in writing these HUGE posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by no-coast-punk View Post
Phil I have a little challenge for you.

You really believe in this system and the new software that much? Let me know when the new firmware is out in the final public release form.

Put your money where your mouth is. I will send you the unit out of my RS. You update it to the newest firmware at no charge (why the hell should customers have to pay for updates anyway). You change any configuration issues that I am locked out of that you think were done in-correctly. You tell me EXACTLY which USB adapter to use (I currently use an IO-gear GUC232a and a shiny new dual core laptop with 0 issues with every other standalone made).

I will play with the unit for a month (I have after all been playing with this system going on 3 years now and have learned a few things). I will report objectively what I find. If I can't get it running correctly I will call my MR2 guy that loves the system just to eliminate the possibility that I don't know what I'm doing.

If the new firmware elevates this unit out of the realm of steaming piles of doggy waste and it turns out to be a good viable system I will change my ways. I will publicly apologize. I will go back and edit EVERY single one of my posts that ever said anything bad about the unit and I will tell people on the internet and in person that it is a viable system.

If the unit and interface is no better and I'm still fighting hiccups and intermittent drivability/stability issues I won't be happy. I am going to punch a few holes in it with a high powered rifle on video just to vent years of frustration with the system. Post the pictures and video far and wide with my findings and convert the RS to an autronic. I will also continue to voice my opinions here. I will also get the other behind the scenes tuners I know to begin voicing their opinions as well.

**************
Everything below this point is meaningless and should not be read by those who have already formed an opinion either way
**************

Hmm... unichips and Utec's.... another pair of stellar engine management systems renowned for their smooth hiccup free drivability and total lack of reliability issues. Back in the day when they were the only options... ok great.

Lets not turn this into personal attacks. I've never said anything in public or private other than you were a nice guy that knew what you were doing. You just had the misfortune of becoming hitched to a really bad system. With time you have found ways to sort of kludge things together to make it work ok.

I tried buying a system through you years ago ('04) when I did the STi thing in my RS. You would have none of it so I had to turn to a few back channel means to get a box. I really sincerely believed that it was the way to go based on the whisperings I had read on the forums at the time. I am really not a close minded person and try every promising thing once. After taking delivery of my box I was awestruck at how truly bad a software package could be.

After screwing with trying to get my box running right for over a year I called in a local Colorado guy who has been dealing with these on the MR2's longer than you have been dealing with these systems on the subies.

After a quick road tuning session he basically turned to me and said "so what's the problem? I can't make any improvements. This is as good as it gets". I was like "what about the throttle response, or the idle issues, or etc." He was basically like... well... live with it.

Bottom line is that somehow the community has been duped into believing through the years that they need to make sacrifices in drivability and deal with little hiccups. That a certain degree of "just living with it" needs to be reached.

As for being able to deal with issues promptly... I personally know this to be absolutely un-true after dealing with a handful of cars from out of state that dealt with lingering issues for MONTHS.

I wrote an e-mail to you after a frustrating 7 hours trying to get a car to start and idle correctly. This was after a week of going back and forth with various unlocked maps just to get the car to communicate. Your response was basically "You will never be able to get a car to idle at anything but 1,500 at a 10:1 AFR with big cams and big injectors on this system". This was the car that finally broke the camels back for me. After dealing with this car I vowed to never touch a Hydra system. We sold the customer an Autronic and the thing runs peachey.

I know I go out of my way to badmouth the system. Because I'm tired of seeing cars that have tons of money dumped into them that won't bloody run right or as well as they could.

Sure many people have great success with the system. Would their cars run better on a different system? I believe so. Are they willing to just "live with it". Yeah.

Nobody really says boo when things go wrong because they assume they are a totally unique case. When they do say they are having issues they basically get told "**** N00B".

When I do speak up I get a flood of PM's. Or like in that other idle/throttle issue thread. Half the posts are "hey, yeah! Me too!"

I don't care about how much control a system offers or all the gee whiz features it has or what other people have to say. I don't care about knock control. Dig up some of the arguments Drac9 and I get into with clark on that topic. If knock control is really that big of an issue... you can build knock correction maps for an autronic and use an input from a knock sensor.

The ONLY thing I care about is if a car runs correctly with 0 issues from idle to full boost under all throttle conditions for years to come on 100% of the cars it's running. Will this ever happen? No. But the Hydra has done nothing but prove to me that it will not fit this bill.

This is why I use AP's on any car making enough power to run high 10's. Not because of all the gee whiz features. But because it's cheap and the cars run perfectly for a very long time. Hell... the 4wd rally class winner at the pikes peak hill climb this year was running an AP. All the open class rally guys in this country run an Autronic or something on the Motec/Pectel level. You will not see one single Hydra because reliability issues are not acceptable.

There is a reason I like certain systems. That is because they have proven themselves to work predictably under whatever condition is thrown at them. Is the Autronic perfect? God no. Is the AP perfect? God no. Do they work way better and more consistently than the Hydra? God yes.

CN: I have nothing against Phil or the Hydra because they are Phil or the Hydra. I just don't like the Hydra in its current form because it's a buggy steaming pile of garbage and there are better cheaper alternatives out there. I would be doing the community a big disservice to not speak up about these better cheaper alternatives.
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Old 10-03-2007, 01:25 AM   #21
El Gato
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BTW, the interface of the Hydra, I find it much easier to understand and manage, than the UTEC. Maps have more resolution and software is windows based, and more options. Element Tuning Hydras come pretty much setup by Phil out of the box, and he has available several maps tuned for different size injectors for every day driving. All EMS have to be tuned at WOT no matter what they are. If you can tune a UTEC, you can certainly tune a Hydra with a very small learning curve, as I have done so myself (although I could not tune the UTEC, but then the Hydra has the fuel autotune and long term learning, in which case I did not do much there either). UTEC is a great EMS but the Hydra is so much smoother for everyday driving, in my opinion, and I can place my air flow meter in my pocket if I wanted to.
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Old 10-18-2007, 10:20 PM   #22
no-coast-punk
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PM sent to Phil quite awhile ago with the information requested. Have yet to hear a reply. Was going to see what he had to say before I replied to this thread. Got tired of waiting.

Yes, my unit was a custom one off unit from andrew @ hydra EMS. It shouldn't matter where the box comes from. The hardware is all the same. The software is all the same. The only difference is the base config. stuff like cam/crank trigger profiles that the end user doesn't have access to. I would have happily purchased an Element box if Phil had faith in the versatility of the system to do what I wanted it to.

I have been doing the standalone EFI thing for a VERY long time. Just about every system I have ever used has been one that I've "pointedly walked into without any support without anybody to talk to". It's NEVER been an issue until I stumbled into this system. Seeing as I've been dealing in Subies making over 20lbs of boost before the WRX was even available on these shores I wasn't really hesitant about exploring yet another undocumented EFI system that seemed to have solid hardware and a solid reputation among other groups (miata's, MR2's, etc.). Until I started my own business I had the free time to constantly push the boundaries of what people were doing with these cars.... like... I have yet to hear of another GC in the country that was running a 6mt with functioning center diff. before mine. The undocumented and unknown has really never been an issue.

Yes, I had an IAT issue. Mailed the box to Hydra EMS and it came back working just fine.

The thing is... everyone has a different definition of "working great". There are thousands of people running Utecs that think they "work great" and "run fine". They sorta somehow glass over the rough open/closed loop transitions and the like. Same goes for lots of sub-par systems. People just assume "well... I spent lots of money... so it must be good".

My RS really doesn't run THAT badly. Most people would think it runs just fine. I've seen several Hydra cars come through the shop for various issues and they all run about the same as my RS.... thing is I just know with a better system they could all run much better with far fewer issues.

So yeah... there are happy customers out there running the system. However most of those people haven't driven anything but a stock car or a car on Hydra or something worse and just don't really know better.

Now also keep in mind that the "other EMS" sub forum is currently loaded with topics about Hydra issues.

Last edited by no-coast-punk; 10-18-2007 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 10-18-2007, 11:29 PM   #23
marc l
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i got microtec on my car


everything you want

nothing you dont need... works great
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Old 10-18-2007, 11:55 PM   #24
scrappydoo
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Depends how long you're willing to wait for em. It's been 5 months and I still haven't gotten my Hydra.
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrappydoo View Post
Depends how long you're willing to wait for em. It's been 5 months and I still haven't gotten my Hydra.
Who did you order it from? We have been shipping unit's every month since March.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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