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Old 08-06-2013, 09:32 PM   #1
Justin V
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Default Engine builder/ vendor cust serv opinion on motor failure after 40 miles

I recently spun a bearing on my motor and had a shortblock sent to me and headwork done on my heads. I'll leave the vendor's name a mystery until this is resolved, but I wanted other opinions on how other builders and vendors would rectify this situation.

all parts were shipped to me and assembled by me. Second build I've done this year/ month, other car is at 3000 miles and 25psi of boost with no problems.

I got my motor installed last Thursday and started it Friday morning, 15 miles in it threw CEL P0021 for timing advanced bank 2

I check AVCS solenoid and oil flow on both heads. Both are good. Grab my laptop to do some datalogs and monitor AVCS in Romraider, Passenger's side advancing as it should Driver's side between 0-2 the whole time.

I pulled the motor Saturday and disassembled the cam gear to find metal shavings in the chambers, upon removing the oil pan there are metal shavings there too.

The shavings look to be aluminum and not copper or brass like the material from the spun bearings.

My thoughts retraced the oil system, everything was new or cleaned and the only aluminum I thought it could be are the shavings from the bowls being blended and the surfaces decked. Meaning that the galleys were not thoroughly cleaned.

If I bought this motor from you how would you make things right?

Keep in mind my new parts have been compromised and my turbo will need a cleaning or rebuild.
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Last edited by Justin V; 08-06-2013 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:48 PM   #2
toph
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Last edited by toph; 08-07-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:44 PM   #3
kakarot09
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There are very few possible scenarios where I would help cover any costs. The assembler should thoroughly clean everything. If it was metal in the heads then you should have caught it during assembly. If I were to sell a long block and install it then I would tear it down and find out what I thought happened and barring anything that was clearly not my fault happening I would rebuild it for free, however I'd be reusing parts if they were salvageable. If there was some sort of part failure like an oil pump, then I would do labor for a discounted rate like 50% of normal shop rate but you'd be paying for any parts. I would only charge you my cost for parts. This is all assuming I wasn't reading this thread at this point.

In this case, I think if you trusted this person to build a short block over all the other options available for short blocks(There are quite a few of them with good track records) then you had quite a bit of faith that person knew what they were doing. Now that you had a failure you should absolutely not start blaming them without even fully tearing down the engine. That would make me hesitant to want to help you at all.
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:59 PM   #4
Justin V
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakarot09 View Post
There are very few possible scenarios where I would help cover any costs. The assembler should thoroughly clean everything. If it was metal in the heads then you should have caught it during assembly. If I were to sell a long block and install it then I would tear it down and find out what I thought happened and barring anything that was clearly not my fault happening I would rebuild it for free, however I'd be reusing parts if they were salvageable. If there was some sort of part failure like an oil pump, then I would do labor for a discounted rate like 50% of normal shop rate but you'd be paying for any parts. I would only charge you my cost for parts. This is all assuming I wasn't reading this thread at this point.

In this case, I think if you trusted this person to build a short block over all the other options available for short blocks(There are quite a few of them with good track records) then you had quite a bit of faith that person knew what they were doing. Now that you had a failure you should absolutely not start blaming them without even fully tearing down the engine. That would make me hesitant to want to help you at all.

I was the assembler, lets say it was metal in the oil passages of the heads. I should have caught that or cleaned it? I guess it was my expectation that I paid them for the valve job, hot tanking, resurfacing and final assembly. When I got the heads the galley plugs were reinstalled and the heads were ready to install.

Aside from one little hiccup I had with one side. (different valve from the rest)

I did and still do trust the builder unless they are feeling somewhat vengeful towards me (the reason I have not associated their name with any of my posts). Things that came to light after purchase regarding the heads: the replacement valve had to be sent off to be ground to the seat angle. I don't know how much of the head work was outsourced but was told final assembly and cleaning happens in house. My QC concern is that the heads left the shop with a noticeably different valve from all the rest. So I wonder if something else may have been over looked.

My greatest frustration comes from the cost. I had a completed build, I should be done spending money on this but now have to have my turbo rebuilt and inspected ($585 is what it cost me last month), all my new parts may have been scarred from debris, but still within spec and useable.

That just doesn't provide me the piece of mind I originally paid for.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin V View Post
I was the assembler, lets say it was metal in the oil passages of the heads. I should have caught that or cleaned it? I guess it was my expectation that I paid them for the valve job, hot tanking, resurfacing and final assembly. When I got the heads the galley plugs were reinstalled and the heads were ready to install.

Aside from one little hiccup I had with one side. (different valve from the rest)

I did and still do trust the builder unless they are feeling somewhat vengeful towards me (the reason I have not associated their name with any of my posts). Things that came to light after purchase regarding the heads: the replacement valve had to be sent off to be ground to the seat angle. I don't know how much of the head work was outsourced but was told final assembly and cleaning happens in house. My QC concern is that the heads left the shop with a noticeably different valve from all the rest. So I wonder if something else may have been over looked.

My greatest frustration comes from the cost. I had a completed build, I should be done spending money on this but now have to have my turbo rebuilt and inspected ($585 is what it cost me last month), all my new parts may have been scarred from debris, but still within spec and useable.

That just doesn't provide me the piece of mind I originally paid for.
Well, now more info is here, the valve wasn't the same as the rest. That is obvious to the naked eye. I would have a hard time trusting them at that point. However, I would then be extra cautious assembling the engine because of it. I would also be more weary when I found out that the same people who did the machining did not also do the assembly. That's two sets of hands prior to yours that were in the heads. If anything goes wrong it's the blame game between 3 people now.

As far as catching/cleaning the heads, I think you should at a minimum be blowing compressed air through the passages you can get to before final assembly.

From the shops perspective, something could have gotten into the heads after they left the shop so why should he want to cover the cost?
It is possible you had some other issue that caused the cams to rub the journals in the heads. If so that could be aluminum you see.

From your perspective they screwed up once and it was on an issue that they should have caught before the heads even left the shop. Ended up that you caught it and then had a failure later too. So if I were you I would probably be blaming the shop too. Pretty bad to have a mismatched valve go through two sets of hands and not get caught before getting to you. Then even worse to have a failure after the fact.

The sad thing is I doubt there's a shop that will willingly pay for you to go to another shop now. At best you might get a rebuilt engine from them and you'd be wondering if it is okay. At worst you're on your own.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:38 AM   #6
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Might want to link to other thread to tie everything together.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:36 AM   #7
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Sucks when a situation like this happens, but look at it in the shops perspective. This stuff happens probably a lot. Machine shop does all this work then the assembler screws up and they get an angry phone call saying you did x wrong I want my money back. They are protecting themselves, which I understand, but as those have said...break down the block inspect whats wrong and if the issue faults to their work then they should help you out. I've had to cut my losses before because it's not worth the effort of having them avoid you as you try to come to a solution for months over a couple grand (which is still a nice hefty chunk of change to me and I'm sure 99 % of people). Assuming the other parts are in spec and good I would say just rebuild the thing correctly once you find the actual issue and repair it. Racecars man, everyone who has this hobby has gone through this at one point.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:14 PM   #8
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I can assure you it was not Outfront's block that was dirty. I've never seen someone clean a block so clean. They cup brush all exterior surfaces, brush all passages, and then put it in the jet washer. They replate every bolt and everything goes straight into the engine building room. They are one of the few that actually remove every single bolt and clean all passages then bag the blocks when done.

My bet is the people who did you heads did not disassemble all the oil gallies and clean them out. But then again, that is maybe something you should have checked before putting the heads together.
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
I can assure you it was not Outfront's block that was dirty. I've never seen someone clean a block so clean. They cup brush all exterior surfaces, brush all passages, and then put it in the jet washer. They replate every bolt and everything goes straight into the engine building room. They are one of the few that actually remove every single bolt and clean all passages then bag the blocks when done.

My bet is the people who did you heads did not disassemble all the oil gallies and clean them out. But then again, that is maybe something you should have checked before putting the heads together.
Sounds like yours was cleaner then mine. Mine the was a new block so the outside was clean and new bolts but it had shavings and some type of green liquid (loctite?) at the deck plate in the water jacket around the cylinders. Shoulda took pics but I just cleaned it all out and rolled with it
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:09 PM   #10
Justin V
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Granted I was the assembler, I can't figure out what I would have installed that had shavings.

I cleaned the head stud holes, installed the heads, then set the cams in, put the blocks on and torqued them down and finally valve covers.

On the bottom it was just the oil baffle, pickup and then the pan.

only other thing was the oil pump which was new.

Any accessories, turbo (rebuilt), lines new or cleaned, AVCS gears, cleaned and rebuilt, AOS cleaned with new lines.
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:03 PM   #11
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Did you get a new oil cooler?
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:15 PM   #12
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its been deleted, new filter bung, block plugged and 08 wrx waterpump
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