Toyota/Subaru Lightweight Sports Car

chairmandave · 09-26-2007, 04:42 PM

May Sweet Zombie Jesus strike me dead if this is a re-post:

http://www.7tune.com/?p=112#more-112

Best Car Scoop - A few weeks ago on September 3rd, Daily Car Newspaper (Japan) reported on an interview with Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe and his announcement of a joint Toyota-Subaru ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ which is underway and in it’s initial development phase, with a test mule spotted on a test course at Toyota’s headquarters in Toyota City.

The Test Mule

The test mule is actually still very early in it’s development and in its experimental stage being based on a shortened Subaru Legacy chassis and running a SOHC 2.0L flat-four engine. Best Car isn’t aware of any wheelbase measurements at this time, but going by reports the test mule chassis is around 200mm shorter than it’s Legacy donor platform. The Legacy underpinnings are for experimental purposes only as the new Toyota Lightweight Sports Car will actually be based on a shortened Impreza 15S platform which is better suited to a smaller 1.5 - 2.0L (flat-four) engine and has ‘rear wheel drive friendly’ double wishbone rear suspension. The test mule is in very early stages with the car running the aforementioned 2.0L SOHC engine and a 4WD driveline (without front drive shafts) so it isn’t undergoing any serious performance driving tests at this point in time. Apparently Toyota has the ability to have this new lightweight sports car ready and on the market by the end of next year… if only they were so inclined. Instead, a lot of effort is being put into getting the most performance while keeping the retail price below 2,000,000 yen.

Why a 1.5L engine?

Price seems to be the limiting factor regarding the type of engine, and therefore total weight, of the Toyota Lightweight Sports Car. Best Car has been told that if a larger 2.0L engine were to be used, the cost of the car would definitely rise above the 2,000,000 yen limit and would then not live up to its ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ namesake. Also the rear differential sourced from Subaru (from the Impreza 15S) has been cited as a weak link, it being limited to engines of 2.0L capacity or under for reliability concerns. The 1.5L engine - named ‘EL15′ - is a DOHC flat-four powerplant and is also noted for producing less emissions than it’s larger SOHC sibling which is another important criteria that Toyota is trying to address. The EL15 only puts out 110ps @ 6,400rpm and 14.7kg/m @ 3,200rpm so Toyota is doing its best to lighten the chassis and body as much as possible in order to give the car a reasonable amount of performance. Just how much weight can be shed? Toyota is aiming for 1100kg and no more… this is another reason why the 2.0L engine was rejected as the larger engine would dictate a heavier chassis which in turn would exceed the 1100kg (total vehicle) weight limit by 100kg or more, even with considerable weight reduction. Only so much weight can be shed, and only so much can be done to keep the Lightweight Sports Car within the 2,000,000 yen limit so Toyota has a big job on its hands to address these issues and will certainly be an ongoing problem throughout the development cycle.

Possible WRC Challenger?

Best Car hints at a possible WRC challenger in the making! Toyota could easily use Subaru STi engines and 4WD chassis together with the lightweight FR body for an assault on the World Rally Championship. This is just wishful thinking at this stage but Best Car sees no reason why this wouldn’t be a possibility.

Main Target Market: Europe

Toyota hopes the Lightweight Sports Car will appeal to young European drivers by keeping prices low and giving it a sleek and sporty shape inspired by previous successful designs. The smaller capacity and light weight will put the new Toyota Sports Car up against some well established European competition, but the main focus will be excellent value for money, so we can expect prices to be between 1,800,000 and 2,000,000 yen (in Japan). In the future Toyota hopes the Lightweight Sports Car will be equally successful in China and other markets as well. If development progresses at a fast rate we could see the Toyota Lightweight Sports Car on the market by late 2009 or early 2010.

Text: Justin Karow
Images: Best Car

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

HB_Dad · 09-26-2007, 04:56 PM

The topic is a repost, but there is a lot of new info here, at least info I don't remember from before.

Keep in mind if this is branded as a Toyota, Subaru would likely have their own branded version that is true to the brand (AWD) and would probably be suped up (inclusion of the Turboed 2.5 or possibly the Tribeca's 3.6 engine) as a premium sports car taking the place of the WRX-STI as the fastest Subaru.

Remember the B11S? This could fill the space that the B11S never took in the model line.

Psydotek · 09-26-2007, 04:57 PM

Almost a repost.

Could this be the next prototype revision for the rumored AE86 successor?

blk_wrx · 09-26-2007, 05:12 PM

^^^ Ding! Ding! Ding! Remember, the celica is dead... toyota needs a small car in its line up. Not sure how this plays out with scion and its small cars... i know fwd vs. rwd but most people don't care.

soulbazz · 09-26-2007, 05:18 PM

Why not beef up the diff and add a turbo?

soulbazz · 09-26-2007, 05:19 PM

Why not beef up the diff and add a turbo?

wrxtotoro · 09-26-2007, 05:20 PM

It may even come to NA as a scion tC replacement...

mountjonas · 09-26-2007, 05:36 PM

looks like they used a tc for the basis of those photoshops

dodiox · 09-26-2007, 05:41 PM

will it be RWD?
I don't think so but I hope so.

Jon [in CT] · 09-26-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodiox

will it be RWD?
I don't think so but I hope so.

You kinda suck at the reading part of forum participation.

r0bman · 09-26-2007, 06:18 PM

So this thing's actually becoming a reality. Freaking awesome!

I'd want it to be:

* <180 HP, NA
* RWD
* under 2800 pounds
* under $20K
* Illegal for anyone under the age of 20 that has seen Tokyo Drift to operate, thus keeping the insurance rates affordable

They seem to be getting the idea right, what with the < 2500 lb weight being the prime concern. Now if we could teach parents how to raise their kids to be good drivers in this damn country, we'd have a winner.

Daishi00 · 09-26-2007, 06:21 PM

Man, a 2400 lb RWD platform would be awesome...

MatthewMarchand · 09-26-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soulbazz

Why not beef up the diff and add a turbo?

lilneel12 · 09-26-2007, 06:32 PM

looks like a scion tc, but better

shemoves · 09-26-2007, 06:45 PM

I really like the way the car looks. It'd be cool if Toyota's model was a zippy, NA, RWD car, focusing more on being light weight, and Subaru's was AWD and turbo, those adding some weight, but more power.

soulbazz · 09-26-2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewMarchand

Toyota's got plenty of money they should just take one for the team

!

SQ3.0dotJP · 09-26-2007, 08:00 PM

ADD AWD for a version subie version and my P2 dream is damn near a reality!!!!!!!!

only1agam · 09-26-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel2.0

ADD AWD for a version subie version and my P2 dream is damn near a reality!!!!!!!!

we are on the same damn page man

BUT i will add that it better have a H4, AWD, the tribeca like interior with the family nose and i'm happy

pio!pio! · 09-26-2007, 08:43 PM

Naturally aspirated EJ25 + RWD + STi or WRX rear diff = awesome-o?

JoeyW · 09-26-2007, 08:46 PM

STi swap anyone?

l0pl0p · 09-26-2007, 09:01 PM

This was also in the new Car and Driver, although not nearly that amount of info.

"The Committee for Interesting Cars" has been busy. I am all over this thing. The first car I bought was a 1986 Toyota MR2, and it was one of the most fun cars I've ever owned. Perhaps not quite as good of a drifter as a Trueno, but I cut my teeth on that little tail-happy bastard. Fun stuff. That car was ~2350 lbs, 112hp, btw.

Big bonus if it comes with a boxer! I was thinking the new Corolla engine, but a nice 1.5L Boxer would make this thing really sing.

My wife said I could turn the STI into a track rat and buy a daily driver. This would be just the ticket. PLEASE make it, Toyota.

SQ3.0dotJP · 09-26-2007, 09:02 PM

mememe

SQ3.0dotJP · 09-26-2007, 09:04 PM

thats an h4 in the pic, unless im THAT DRUNK

Quote:

Originally Posted by only1agam

we are on the same damn page man

BUT i will add that it better have a H4, AWD, the tribeca like interior with the family nose and i'm happy

NeoteriX · 09-26-2007, 09:05 PM

Doesn't it seem like back arseward (and a lot of wasted money and parts) to get RWD by using an shorted AWD platform, chopping off the front differentials, etc.?

As much as I like Subaru, there are qualities of its driveline layout that are compromises--like the boxer engine sticking out, the resulting overhang, etc. These are tradeoffs we generally accept because of the value of AWD, but now... we're taking it away?

I don't see why Toyota doesn't just take their RWD IS platform and make some cheap car based on that. If they want to cut more costs, just use last gen's IS chassis.

qtr_wrx · 09-26-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r0bman

So this thing's actually becoming a reality. Freaking awesome!

I'd want it to be:

* <180 HP, NA
* RWD
* under 2800 pounds
* under $20K
* Illegal for anyone under the age of 20 that has seen Tokyo Drift to operate, thus keeping the insurance rates affordable

They seem to be getting the idea right, what with the < 2500 lb weight being the prime concern. Now if we could teach parents how to raise their kids to be good drivers in this damn country, we'd have a winner.

180hp out of that SOHC ej20!! come on i'd be happy if they make it ~140hp (my 04 impreza is SOHC ej20, and it's makes 120hp @ 5600rpm)

09-26-2007, 04:42 PM	#1
chairmandave Scooby Newbie Member#: 31779 Join Date: Jan 2003 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, WA	Toyota/Subaru Lightweight Sports Car May Sweet Zombie Jesus strike me dead if this is a re-post: http://www.7tune.com/?p=112#more-112 Best Car Scoop - A few weeks ago on September 3rd, Daily Car Newspaper (Japan) reported on an interview with Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe and his announcement of a joint Toyota-Subaru ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ which is underway and in it’s initial development phase, with a test mule spotted on a test course at Toyota’s headquarters in Toyota City. The Test Mule The test mule is actually still very early in it’s development and in its experimental stage being based on a shortened Subaru Legacy chassis and running a SOHC 2.0L flat-four engine. Best Car isn’t aware of any wheelbase measurements at this time, but going by reports the test mule chassis is around 200mm shorter than it’s Legacy donor platform. The Legacy underpinnings are for experimental purposes only as the new Toyota Lightweight Sports Car will actually be based on a shortened Impreza 15S platform which is better suited to a smaller 1.5 - 2.0L (flat-four) engine and has ‘rear wheel drive friendly’ double wishbone rear suspension. The test mule is in very early stages with the car running the aforementioned 2.0L SOHC engine and a 4WD driveline (without front drive shafts) so it isn’t undergoing any serious performance driving tests at this point in time. Apparently Toyota has the ability to have this new lightweight sports car ready and on the market by the end of next year… if only they were so inclined. Instead, a lot of effort is being put into getting the most performance while keeping the retail price below 2,000,000 yen. Why a 1.5L engine? Price seems to be the limiting factor regarding the type of engine, and therefore total weight, of the Toyota Lightweight Sports Car. Best Car has been told that if a larger 2.0L engine were to be used, the cost of the car would definitely rise above the 2,000,000 yen limit and would then not live up to its ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ namesake. Also the rear differential sourced from Subaru (from the Impreza 15S) has been cited as a weak link, it being limited to engines of 2.0L capacity or under for reliability concerns. The 1.5L engine - named ‘EL15′ - is a DOHC flat-four powerplant and is also noted for producing less emissions than it’s larger SOHC sibling which is another important criteria that Toyota is trying to address. The EL15 only puts out 110ps @ 6,400rpm and 14.7kg/m @ 3,200rpm so Toyota is doing its best to lighten the chassis and body as much as possible in order to give the car a reasonable amount of performance. Just how much weight can be shed? Toyota is aiming for 1100kg and no more… this is another reason why the 2.0L engine was rejected as the larger engine would dictate a heavier chassis which in turn would exceed the 1100kg (total vehicle) weight limit by 100kg or more, even with considerable weight reduction. Only so much weight can be shed, and only so much can be done to keep the Lightweight Sports Car within the 2,000,000 yen limit so Toyota has a big job on its hands to address these issues and will certainly be an ongoing problem throughout the development cycle. Possible WRC Challenger? Best Car hints at a possible WRC challenger in the making! Toyota could easily use Subaru STi engines and 4WD chassis together with the lightweight FR body for an assault on the World Rally Championship. This is just wishful thinking at this stage but Best Car sees no reason why this wouldn’t be a possibility. Main Target Market: Europe Toyota hopes the Lightweight Sports Car will appeal to young European drivers by keeping prices low and giving it a sleek and sporty shape inspired by previous successful designs. The smaller capacity and light weight will put the new Toyota Sports Car up against some well established European competition, but the main focus will be excellent value for money, so we can expect prices to be between 1,800,000 and 2,000,000 yen (in Japan). In the future Toyota hopes the Lightweight Sports Car will be equally successful in China and other markets as well. If development progresses at a fast rate we could see the Toyota Lightweight Sports Car on the market by late 2009 or early 2010. Text: Justin Karow Images: Best Car * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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09-26-2007, 04:56 PM	#2
HB_Dad Scooby Specialist Member#: 45190 Join Date: Oct 2003 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Huntington Beach, CA Vehicle: 2006 Tribeca LTD Atlantic Blue Pearl	The topic is a repost, but there is a lot of new info here, at least info I don't remember from before. Keep in mind if this is branded as a Toyota, Subaru would likely have their own branded version that is true to the brand (AWD) and would probably be suped up (inclusion of the Turboed 2.5 or possibly the Tribeca's 3.6 engine) as a premium sports car taking the place of the WRX-STI as the fastest Subaru. Remember the B11S? This could fill the space that the B11S never took in the model line.

09-26-2007, 04:57 PM	#3
Psydotek Scooby Guru Member#: 44168 Join Date: Sep 2003 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: In your pant[ie]s. Vehicle: 2003 Yellow WRX with too many lights...	Almost a repost. Could this be the next prototype revision for the rumored AE86 successor?

09-26-2007, 05:12 PM	#4
blk_wrx Scooby Newbie Member#: 83125 Join Date: Mar 2005 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: SoCal Vehicle: 2010 EV0 X Wicked White	^^^ Ding! Ding! Ding! Remember, the celica is dead... toyota needs a small car in its line up. Not sure how this plays out with scion and its small cars... i know fwd vs. rwd but most people don't care.

09-26-2007, 05:18 PM	#5
soulbazz Scooby Newbie Member#: 95916 Join Date: Sep 2005 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Rhode Island Vehicle: 2004 Impreza WRX White	Why not beef up the diff and add a turbo?

09-26-2007, 05:19 PM	#6
soulbazz Scooby Newbie Member#: 95916 Join Date: Sep 2005 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Rhode Island Vehicle: 2004 Impreza WRX White	Why not beef up the diff and add a turbo?

09-26-2007, 05:20 PM	#7
wrxtotoro Scooby Newbie Member#: 113259 Join Date: Apr 2006 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NNJ (NJM owned Geico BIG time) Vehicle: 06 WRX White	It may even come to NA as a scion tC replacement...

09-26-2007, 05:36 PM	#8
mountjonas Scooby Specialist Member#: 93859 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: SCIC Vehicle: 2012 Appliance 6MT	looks like they used a tc for the basis of those photoshops

09-26-2007, 05:41 PM	#9
dodiox Visiting NASIOC Timeout Member#: 85718 Join Date: Apr 2005 Vehicle: 06 WRX Cobb Stage 2	will it be RWD? I don't think so but I hope so.

09-26-2007, 06:18 PM	#11
r0bman Scooby Specialist Member#: 87015 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mos Eisley, TA 85281	So this thing's actually becoming a reality. Freaking awesome! I'd want it to be: * <180 HP, NA * RWD * under 2800 pounds * under $20K * Illegal for anyone under the age of 20 that has seen Tokyo Drift to operate, thus keeping the insurance rates affordable They seem to be getting the idea right, what with the < 2500 lb weight being the prime concern. Now if we could teach parents how to raise their kids to be good drivers in this damn country, we'd have a winner.

09-26-2007, 06:21 PM	#12
Daishi00 Scooby Guru Member#: 78952 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: BSG junkie Vehicle: 2005 WRX CGM	Man, a 2400 lb RWD platform would be awesome...

09-26-2007, 06:32 PM	#14
lilneel12 Scooby Specialist Member#: 114019 Join Date: May 2006 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Vehicle: 2006 WRX WRB	looks like a scion tc, but better

09-26-2007, 06:45 PM	#15
shemoves Scooby Guru Member#: 80663 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: SWIC Location: Glendale, AZ Vehicle: 1997 Outback	I really like the way the car looks. It'd be cool if Toyota's model was a zippy, NA, RWD car, focusing more on being light weight, and Subaru's was AWD and turbo, those adding some weight, but more power.

09-26-2007, 08:00 PM	#17
SQ3.0dotJP Scooby Specialist Member#: 136330 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: International Location: Nippon, Yeay Vehicle: # OCCUPY	ADD AWD for a version subie version and my P2 dream is damn near a reality!!!!!!!!

09-26-2007, 08:43 PM	#19
pio!pio! Scooby Specialist Member#: 4190 Join Date: Feb 2001 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: San Jose, CA Vehicle: 2008 Impreza WRX STi Aspen White	Naturally aspirated EJ25 + RWD + STi or WRX rear diff = awesome-o?

09-26-2007, 08:46 PM	#20
JoeyW Scooby Newbie Member#: 100192 Join Date: Nov 2005	STi swap anyone?

09-26-2007, 09:01 PM	#21
l0pl0p Scooby Newbie Member#: 157588 Join Date: Aug 2007 Vehicle: 2007 STI	This was also in the new Car and Driver, although not nearly that amount of info. "The Committee for Interesting Cars" has been busy. I am all over this thing. The first car I bought was a 1986 Toyota MR2, and it was one of the most fun cars I've ever owned. Perhaps not quite as good of a drifter as a Trueno, but I cut my teeth on that little tail-happy bastard. Fun stuff. That car was ~2350 lbs, 112hp, btw. Big bonus if it comes with a boxer! I was thinking the new Corolla engine, but a nice 1.5L Boxer would make this thing really sing. My wife said I could turn the STI into a track rat and buy a daily driver. This would be just the ticket. PLEASE make it, Toyota.

09-26-2007, 09:02 PM	#22
SQ3.0dotJP Scooby Specialist Member#: 136330 Join Date: Jan 2007 Chapter/Region: International Location: Nippon, Yeay Vehicle: # OCCUPY	mememe

09-26-2007, 09:05 PM	#24
NeoteriX Scooby Specialist Member#: 20999 Join Date: Jul 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: NJ Vehicle: 2002 PSM WRX Stg 2 knee - Aw - teh - rix	Doesn't it seem like back arseward (and a lot of wasted money and parts) to get RWD by using an shorted AWD platform, chopping off the front differentials, etc.? As much as I like Subaru, there are qualities of its driveline layout that are compromises--like the boxer engine sticking out, the resulting overhang, etc. These are tradeoffs we generally accept because of the value of AWD, but now... we're taking it away? I don't see why Toyota doesn't just take their RWD IS platform and make some cheap car based on that. If they want to cut more costs, just use last gen's IS chassis.