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Old 09-28-2007, 05:39 PM   #1
spoolinred
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Default crower says there is no breakin?

i am gettin ready to start my engine for the first time this sat. so i called crower to ask them about the breakin on their cams and how it should be done. to my surprise they said that they require no breakin in time. i have done a search on this and came up with nothing but proper motor breakin. so does anyone have any suggestions on this?
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:50 PM   #2
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If you talked to the manufacturer I'd believe them.

Most of the time though, after installing cams when you first start the engine you hold the rpms at a certain range for several minutes and that is all the break in that is needed. I don't know the specifics as I am not an engine builder.
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Old 09-28-2007, 07:12 PM   #3
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who did you speak with at Crower?...
I sell BC goodies...I'll make a call and will let you know what I find out
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Old 09-28-2007, 07:19 PM   #4
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2,000 rpms for 20 minutes using cam break-in additive.
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Old 09-28-2007, 09:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJU1983 View Post
...using cam break-in additive.
What exactly is that? Is this something you mix in with the assembly lube, or an oil additive? Why not just run it and then drop the oil?
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Old 09-28-2007, 10:52 PM   #6
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with kelford cams I was told run it for 20 minutes at 2,000 rpm. also if it's a new motor make sure you have reasonable AFR's, nothing too lean or rich.
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Old 09-28-2007, 11:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
who did you speak with at Crower?...
I sell BC goodies...I'll make a call and will let you know what I find out
sorry i didn't get the guys name. but any info you can get would be great. yeah i was going to go with the bc cams but i waited for about 2 months but they still never got them in so i went with the crower cams...
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Old 09-29-2007, 12:13 AM   #8
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I recently bought a motor from Ron @ axis he said 20min at 2000 rpms b4 u start driving the car but I'm also breaking in a new short block so i'm not sure if you need to anything else like u were breaking in a new motor but he said not idling for the 20 min will destroy the buckets and cams.
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Old 09-29-2007, 02:57 AM   #9
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Bearings may need "break in", but steel has a very high micro-yield strength, so there's no need for the rod itself to be broken-in, just its bearings, on both ends.
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Old 09-29-2007, 09:32 PM   #10
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...I still want to know what "cam break-in additive" is...
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:05 PM   #11
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Its not the fact that you need to "break in" the cams. Its the fact that you need to give the ecu some time to adapt to the change in lift and/or duration. If you called BC and they said the cams don't need a break in then I would trust them considering they made them.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiBottom
Its not the fact that you need to "break in" the cams. Its the fact that you need to give the ecu some time to adapt to the change in lift and/or duration. If you called BC and they said the cams don't need a break in then I would trust them considering they made them.
That should take less than 2 minutes, not 20.
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:43 AM   #13
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No its because you need to break in the cam and lifters and ensure they get adequate oil.
Cam manufactures have been recommending 1500-2000 rpm for 15 - 30 minutes for 40+ years.

The cam lobes and lifters (buckets) are the most highly stressed part in the engine for lubrication, and you need to quickly get the engine up to 1500-2000 rpm to get adequate oil to the cams and lifters to prevent wiping the nose off the cam lobes.

Assembly lube has also been recommended for a the same time, it is typically an extreme pressure lubricant like a MOS2 based paste that is dabed on the cam lobes and lifters during engine assembly.

I second all the above, fire it up and hold it at a fast idle for an extended period of time to protect the cam and bearings by getting the oil pump spinning fast enough to reach full oil pressure and purge air out of the oil gallery's quickly. On some engines with high pressure valve springs they even install low tension valve springs start and run the engine and then put the high tension springs back in.


On those engines extended cranking of the engine without starting can kill a cam. On a stock cam it may not be absolutely necessary but it is good practice on all engines.

Newer engine oils have had much of the Zinc and other high pressure lubrication additives removed so it is more necessary now than it was 10 years ago.

Larry
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
No its because you need to break in the cam and lifters and ensure they get adequate oil.
Cam manufactures have been recommending 1500-2000 rpm for 15 - 30 minutes for 40+ years.

The cam lobes and lifters (buckets) are the most highly stressed part in the engine for lubrication, and you need to quickly get the engine up to 1500-2000 rpm to get adequate oil to the cams and lifters to prevent wiping the nose off the cam lobes.

Assembly lube has also been recommended for a the same time, it is typically an extreme pressure lubricant like a MOS2 based paste that is dabed on the cam lobes and lifters during engine assembly.

I second all the above, fire it up and hold it at a fast idle for an extended period of time to protect the cam and bearings by getting the oil pump spinning fast enough to reach full oil pressure and purge air out of the oil gallery's quickly. On some engines with high pressure valve springs they even install low tension valve springs start and run the engine and then put the high tension springs back in.


On those engines extended cranking of the engine without starting can kill a cam. On a stock cam it may not be absolutely necessary but it is good practice on all engines.

Newer engine oils have had much of the Zinc and other high pressure lubrication additives removed so it is more necessary now than it was 10 years ago.

Larry

ok that sounds all good. so what if you crank the car and it runs for maybe a min or less and you realize you have a leak or maybe some other problem. then you have to shut the engine down and fix the problem and restart. will this affect the breakin period of the cams or the buckets?
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Old 09-30-2007, 06:24 PM   #15
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Usually not, our engines have pretty moderate valve spring pressures and the cam lobes are not all that agressive when compared to racing cams with 0.600 inch lift. Extended no start cranking is the worst on a new cam, so that is the thing to avoid --- just make sure you don't just grind on the starter for ever on a new engine if you can avoid it.

The most problems of that sort come on the big V-8's that have stupid valve seat pressures to run very agressive cams at high rpm. On some of those you can destroy a cam and lifters with a couple short starts like that. That is the reason many of them are fired and run in on light valve springs first, or they pre-pressurize the oil system each time they try to start it with an accusump or by spinning the oilpump with an electric drill first.

You should be fine with a normal start and check for leaks.

Larry
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
The most problems of that sort come on the big V-8's that have stupid valve seat pressures to run very agressive cams at high rpm. On some of those you can destroy a cam and lifters with a couple short starts like that...
This is a very interesting discussion. I realize this is off-topic, however, you have me thinking about my partner whose ZL1 racing engine is eating cams every 12-15 hours, about double the rate of the normal TBO. He's very careful, no throttle blips until it's warm, but I have to wonder...
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:04 PM   #17
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so if you've got a brand new engine with cams... what do you do then ???

I'm assuming idling for 20 minutes with brand new piston rings would be a bad idea
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:11 PM   #18
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Not at all. SOP is to start a new motor, let it idle all the way to full warm, shut it down, let it cool off, get it up in the air and thoroughly check for leaks/problems/issues. Some mechanics will even drop the oil for the first time right then to flush the assembly lube and first bits 'n pieces. So, by the time you have it warmed up the second time and are ready to drive it out the door to start your break-in, you've got your 15-20 minutes of initial low rpm running time. Good practice and common sense: after investing all that money, you don't leave the shop until you know it's all tight.
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Old 10-01-2007, 07:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
I'm assuming idling for 20 minutes with brand new piston rings would be a bad idea
Not really, in fact that is how I started my breakin on my WRX when I bought it. Car had 7 miles on the clock when I picked it up. When they gave me the keys I started it pulled into a parking spot at the dealer and held it at a fast idle (not just let it idle) of about 1500-2000 rpm for 30 minutes while I thumbed through the engine manual.

After 30 minutes I let it go to normal idle while I popped the hood to look for anything odd, took a look under the hood and then pulled out of the dealers parking lot and took a blast up to the speed limit short shifting at 4000 rpm.

Car has never used any oil -- in 64,000 miles I have only had to top off the oil 2 times with about 1/2 a quart of oil when I was running a very thin racing oil.

The key is to let it run at a high idle speed. It is fast enough to get good coolant flow and good oil flow and gets the engine up to full operational temperature for the first time under no load and with good cooling and lubrication. You are correct extended time at slow idle would be harder on it than a faster idle. On carburated cars it was easy because you could set the throttle on the fast idle cam on the carburator linkage and then get out and crawl around the car with a flash light and watch for leaks and such.

Quote:
you have me thinking about my partner whose ZL1 racing engine is eating cams every 12-15 hours, about double the rate of the normal TBO. He's very careful, no throttle blips until it's warm, but I have to wonder...
It could be several things. Sometimes the problem is the lifters being too soft for the cam pressures the lifter starts to score and then it kills the cam lobe. If he is running very agressive valve spring pressures he could try several things. Build the head with low pressure springs (if useing doubles only use the outer springs) then start the cam and without going to high rpm let it run in for a while to make the parts happy with each other. Then pull the valve covers and pull things apart with an air hold to keep the valves in place and put in the full valve springs. Some guys use low ratio rockerarms until the cam has some time on it then go to the higher ratio rockers as a way to take load off the cam until it is run in a bit. He should also look into anti friction coatings for the lifters and cam.


Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 10-02-2007 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:09 PM   #20
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I'll send him your suggestions, thanks.
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Old 10-02-2007, 06:00 PM   #21
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+12345 on 20minute high-idle (2000rpm) break-in for the cams.

i did this after i installed my Crower's. the motor ticked and knocked like mad for ~ 8-10minutes (checked w/ stethoscope, not bearings, they were silent, all valvetrain noise). after that ~ 10minute mark, it got quieter. after 20 minutes....it got SILENT.




then i got massive misfire codes. 5 days of diagnosis later, i realize my coolant lines were hooked up backwards, and i was basically making the water pump work against itself. goodbye headgasket.

replaced em w/ stock-thickness Cometic's. when i pulled the heads, there wasnt a BIT of abnormal wear on the new cams. the break-in procedute worked flawlessly (even if the motor didnt lol)
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Old 10-02-2007, 06:39 PM   #22
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Larry, I always enjoy reading your posts.

-Mike
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper View Post
+12345 on 20minute high-idle (2000rpm) break-in for the cams.

i did this after i installed my Crower's. the motor ticked and knocked like mad for ~ 8-10minutes (checked w/ stethoscope, not bearings, they were silent, all valvetrain noise). after that ~ 10minute mark, it got quieter. after 20 minutes....it got SILENT.




then i got massive misfire codes. 5 days of diagnosis later, i realize my coolant lines were hooked up backwards, and i was basically making the water pump work against itself. goodbye headgasket.

replaced em w/ stock-thickness Cometic's. when i pulled the heads, there wasnt a BIT of abnormal wear on the new cams. the break-in procedute worked flawlessly (even if the motor didnt lol)
doh ! Don't you hate that **** !

lets hope I've got my head pulled out of my ass enough to get my car running right the first time
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