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Old 10-02-2007, 01:11 PM   #1
Chad W
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Default Using Enginuity to datalog and find more power for a 2.5i

I'm working on getting some more power out of my gf's '07 2.5i and I'm hoping I can use Enginuity datalogging to help evaluate the best hardware changes, and I have a few questions...

1. Can I use g/s as a way of evaulating different intake and exhaust set-ups? Is this basically an effective way of determining if my engine is pumping more air through it a given RPM? Higher is always better? Exhaust changes should show up here (if they show up anywhere)

2. I was hoping to use the IAT value as a way of determining if the car was running optimal timing on 87 octane...or if it would benefit from some higher octane. It seems like IAT is not a selectable value in the logger, what value should I use to test this?

I am not going to dyno the car, but I do want to chart my performance. My plan is do some third gear runs from 50-75 mph with time stamp on the datalogger, to get some baseline acceleration times. After I'm done with all the modifications, I will redo these runs to measure the improvements and post it all here.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad W View Post
1. Can I use g/s as a way of evaulating different intake and exhaust set-ups? Is this basically an effective way of determining if my engine is pumping more air through it a given RPM? Higher is always better? Exhaust changes should show up here (if they show up anywhere)
Yes, g/s of air should translate into horsepower assuming the car maintains proper AFR and doesn't muck about with timing. g/s will increase with both better flow and colder air. Big assumptions, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad W View Post
2. I was hoping to use the IAT value as a way of determining if the car was running optimal timing on 87 octane...or if it would benefit from some higher octane. It seems like IAT is not a selectable value in the logger, what value should I use to test this?
You mean IAM, Ignition Advance Multiplier. IAT is Intake Air Temperature. IAM is NOT loggable on the NA cars yet. It is supposed to be included in the next release. They say. Yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad W View Post
I am not going to dyno the car, but I do want to chart my performance. My plan is do some third gear runs from 50-75 mph with time stamp on the datalogger, to get some baseline acceleration times. After I'm done with all the modifications, I will redo these runs to measure the improvements and post it all here.
To chart performance, you have to log RPM AND NOTHING ELSE. Otherwise, the sampling frequency isn't high enough. The plots of horsepower and torque that you can generate from this log is a pretty picture and not much else. It's not repeatable enough for tuning. If you want a graph you can use to compare states of tune, you need to use RPM v. Time, or dRPM/dT v. RPM.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:48 PM   #3
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Thanks for the help. The endgame for me as far as logging the g/s goes is primarily for evaluating the whether it's worth it to make a true ram air system (using a PRM Intake) or leave it a bit open, so cold air is getting feed in, but not forced....the concern being the filter becoming saturated with water in heavy rain.

Good call on the RPM, its seems to be a much more granular measure than MPH which hops skips and jumps. I was thinking 50mph-75mph because it's a common value, but realistically I could just calculate fairly accurate mph from the rpm.
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Old 10-02-2007, 03:52 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad W View Post
Thanks for the help. The endgame for me as far as logging the g/s goes is primarily for evaluating the whether it's worth it to make a true ram air system (using a PRM Intake) or leave it a bit open, so cold air is getting feed in, but not forced....the concern being the filter becoming saturated with water in heavy rain.

Good call on the RPM, its seems to be a much more granular measure than MPH which hops skips and jumps. I was thinking 50mph-75mph because it's a common value, but realistically I could just calculate fairly accurate mph from the rpm.
Honestly, with a 2.5i, the (actual) dyno results strongly support just slapping a SRI on there an calling it a day. I wouldn't mess about with the intake more than that unless you feel like doing it as a hobby after you've got everything else about the car sorted.


To log a "dyno pull" in Enginuity, you want to set up the logger to log just RPM. Then set it to trigger off the defrost button. Get the car in 3rd gear at about 2k RPM (basically guaranteed to be in closed loop). Pop the defrost button, floor it a second later, then run it into the fuel cut and pop the defrost button again to stop the log. Import into Excel and graph.
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Old 10-02-2007, 04:02 PM   #5
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Yeah but, think about it, with a true ram air system I could easily net 1.5 to 1.6 more whp than those SRI guys....

My pie in the sky hope is that through simple, but optimal bolts on and basic tuning to optimize timing for 93 octane, the car could hit the magical, mythical 200chp grail...but realistically suspension, brakes, interior, stereo, looks and wheels/tires are going to get a lot more attention than power.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:38 PM   #6
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Ok, so I don't have the exact numbers calculated yet, but I do have some rough data.

I did several runs, but only really have repeatable data from 3K to 6K. The average runtime was ~10 seconds in 3rd gear. Does anyone know off hand the mph/revs in third gear (stock tires)?

I only managed a single g/s run, and saw a peak number of 133 at 6K.

I'll get more granular info in here when I get a chance to crunch the numbers


What is the importance of going into closed loop? The ecu won't play around with timing based on a/f then?
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:20 PM   #7
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Closed loop and open loop is probably the single most misunderstood topic in all of Subaru tuning.

An EXTREMELY simplified version of what's going on is that in closed loop, the ECU is monitoring the AFR sensor and adjusting the amount of fueling to match the intended AFR. The average correction required to match the desired AFR is then stored as AF learning. In open loop, conditions are such that the ECU knows it can't trust the data from the AFR sensor. It will then take the AF learning percentage from closed loop, apply that correction to the fueling targets set by the factory, and make its best guess about how much fuel to dump in.

As far as converting RPM to MPH, yes, there's a spreadsheet to do it. It's in the Transmission forum somewhere. However, your tires vary enough that that's useless for tuning. You want to graph RPM vs time and rate of change or RPM vs RPM.

So for basic tuning, your goals are to adjust hardware to maximize MAF voltage (and therefore g/s), adjust fueling in open loop to achieve sane AFRs (for which you'll NEED an aftermarket wide-band O2 sensor such as the Innovate LC-1), and advance timing as much as possible without causing knock.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:53 AM   #8
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Thanks Will, I never thought closed was the learning mode, I thought the opposite in fact. I understand the basics of timing and fueling tuning, and I do plan on getting an Innovate LC-1, is making the wideband bung just in front of the cat a good idea? Basically after I get the breathing squared away, I'm just waiting for Enginuity to crack into the ecu so I can play....in the meantime I'm reading Jeff Hartman's book to learn up on the details.
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:25 AM   #9
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1) Contact Innovate, they'll tell you the best place to put the sensor, they're REALCY cool/helpful people.

2) Tea cups, the guy making the defs, just said 2-3 weeks on the NA defs release

3) I just finished the Hartman book. It was actually disappointing after all the hype about it. I'm actually 90% sure I learned more about carburetion from it than I did about EFI. It's a lot of listing about facts, but no advice about how to actually take a car and successfully tune it. The last half of the book (all the case studies) is totally useless.
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:36 AM   #10
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So far it's got me excited to make a muscle car and put EFI on a crate motor, but I haven't gotten too far into it...any other reads you recommend?
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:34 PM   #11
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I have some rough updates, but I know I need to chart the data to effectively analyze it, but here the basic results...which are a bit weird....

The intake system is a simple 3" pipe from the throttle body going into a PRM Filter (the same one Cobb used to sell) after the MAF. The filter housing end with a velocity stack that gets feed cold air from an open fog light housing.

My butt dyno says that this mod has made the car quicker, in a very noticable way. It seems much more responive and just to pull harder, especically in the 3K-5K range. My brain tells me that the pleasing intake noise may be making my butt exagerate the results.

The data logger tells me conflicting story. Running the same stretch of asphalt from under 3K rpm to over 6K rpm, I logged the 3K-6K time. Average times have dropped from ~10.1 to ~9.6 seconds. Not a huge difference, but noticable and seemingly repeatable.

However I am now peaking at about 136 g/s versus about 141 g/s prior to the install. Doing very basic graphing, that 5 g/s less seems to be consistent across the entire measured rev range.

Could I be making more power with less air? How much would temperature play into this? Both readings where cool night time air and not humid. The lower g/s was actually measured with air temps about 10 degrees lower. Is my MAF confused (I am using the stock housing)?
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:35 PM   #12
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PS I have did recent the ECU and put about 200 miles on the car since the intake swap.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:19 PM   #13
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The intake system is a simple 3" pipe from the throttle body going into a PRM Filter (the same one Cobb used to sell) after the MAF. The filter housing end with a velocity stack that gets feed cold air from an open fog light housing.
Did you preserve the stock "torque box"?

Quote:
My butt dyno says that this mod has made the car quicker, in a very noticable way. It seems much more responive and just to pull harder, especically in the 3K-5K range. My brain tells me that the pleasing intake noise may be making my butt exagerate the results.
Thank god you acknowledge that.

Quote:
The data logger tells me conflicting story. Running the same stretch of asphalt from under 3K rpm to over 6K rpm, I logged the 3K-6K time. Average times have dropped from ~10.1 to ~9.6 seconds. Not a huge difference, but noticable and seemingly repeatable.
How precisely did you equalize conditions (temp, baro press, humidity, gas, weight, etc) and how many runs did you make in each configuration?

Quote:
However I am now peaking at about 136 g/s versus about 141 g/s prior to the install. Doing very basic graphing, that 5 g/s less seems to be consistent across the entire measured rev range.

Could I be making more power with less air? How much would temperature play into this? Both readings where cool night time air and not humid. The lower g/s was actually measured with air temps about 10 degrees lower. Is my MAF confused (I am using the stock housing)?
No. Less air is ALWAYS less power UNLESSS you got "lucky" and the MAF reading dropped because it hates the situation it's in now but the actual airflow stayed steady. Before the ECU learns around it, that would cause the high end to run leaner after the OL/CL transition, which would help on an RS. However, the ECU will notice it's running lean in CL and start adding fuel to OL as well after a few hundred miles. However, if conditions are causing the MAF to give incorrect readings to the low side, you're going to be plagued with knock, which isn't worth any amount of power (Boom.).
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:41 PM   #14
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Did you preserve the stock "torque box"?

Nope, it is gone.


How precisely did you equalize conditions (temp, baro press, humidity, gas, weight, etc) and how many runs did you make in each configuration?

Temp, weight and gas are all very close. humidity and baro, I don't really have any readings on. I used the three cleanest runs from each outing.


Are there any conditions which could commonly cause issues with the MAF reading? Everything is well put together and leak free.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:50 PM   #15
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Temp, weight and gas are all very close. humidity and baro, I don't really have any readings on. I used the three cleanest runs from each outing.


Are there any conditions which could commonly cause issues with the MAF reading? Everything is well put together and leak free.
Humidity and baro will have a large effect on a NA car, could feel faster because of nothing more than that.

MAFs get pissy about EVERYTHING. Even slightly different diameter tubing. Different turbulence, upstream or downstream curves in the piping, resonance effects from the intake manifold (that's what the appendix on the stock piping is for, btw)... the list goes on...
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:56 PM   #16
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I see, well the current intake resonates like a MOFO right around 5250. I was planning on moving the velocity stack a farther away from the fitler, because for some reason I think with will help. I am going to play around it a bunch more. In the end I think my fancy enclosed filter was probably a waste of cash, but some more experimenting is definitely in order.

Are you pro torque box or against?
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Old 11-07-2007, 02:25 PM   #17
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Against. It doesn't serve any purpose. Pat Olsen dynoed with and without and saw nothing.
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Old 11-07-2007, 02:40 PM   #18
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Cool, I thought if anything it might be a bottle neck.

I'm starting to think that a smooth 3" pipe from the TB to the stock air box, high flow drop-in, velocity stack from fender well to box, remove all other stock pieces, add fender wall plug and feed cold air from open foglight housing would be the best way to go....

The PRM filter set-up was originally designed for MAP cars. Though it was successful for that, the resonance issues may be negative for MAF.....
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:49 AM   #19
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Okay so a little more testing and a little more playing around and I think the PRM filter is crap, or at least not good for my set-up. I did three runs, 40 degrees with the PRM filter and had an average peak g/s of 132. Swapped out the PRM for a regular conical k&n style filter and retested, ran on the exact same place on the highway, though temp had dipped to 35 degrees at this point and I saw and average peak g/s of 153. Temp variable may have made a small difference, but the 15% + increase must primarily be attributed to a less restrictive filter. I did not log IAT, as I was trying to get the most detail on g/s (I did run RPM so I could compare to other runs). Before finalizing my set-up I am going to run a stock box, with a smooth pipe to the TB and a drop in K&N, no snorkus and a velocity stack going into the box from the fender well. It would be great to compare all the set-ups on the same day with the same temp, but at least now I know where the PRM stands next to the current filter and can eliminate it. The reason I want to try to the stock box set-up is that I think it will yield to most consistant IAT's in the summer. If I go with the open filter, I will at least feed it air from the open foglight surround and possibly build a heat shield for it.
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