rod questions

n2oiroc · 10-02-2007, 11:35 PM

does anyone know if the manley h beam rods are forged in china like the eagle rods? any other rods around $600 or less that arent forged in china?

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

STiBottom · 10-03-2007, 12:10 AM

Why does it matter where they are made?

n2oiroc · 10-03-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STiBottom

Why does it matter where they are made?

i know eagle makes good rods, but i would just feel more comfortable with japanese or american made parts. petty? a little, but thats how i roll!

hotrod · 10-03-2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Why does it matter where they are made?

Because the Chinese manufactures do not have a good handle on quality control especially for one of the most highly stressed parts in the engine.

Odds are if the part is unusually cheap (low end of the range) it is cast or forged in China or India. In some cases the parts are final machined in the U.S. but there have been some quality control horror stories with the low cost Chinese made cranks and rods. Many of the professional builders in the top levels of racing have seen some very expensive failures due to poor quality control.

I know of one engine builder that purchased 20 crankshafts from an American company he trusted, unknown to him the company had switched to a chinese import crank supplier. He installed 8 of the cranks 5 of that 8 have broken, (one only had 10 miles on it), one was bent 0.010 and another has one throw twisted far enough it is visible to the naked eye. All because the cranks were using cheap cast iron that was softer than the stock crankshaft. He is now dealing with some pissed off customers because he did not pretest the new cranks for hardness and discover the substitution before sending them out the door. He also had to recall the other 12 cranks.

They are also making lots of knock off counterfeit products that are so good even the real manufacture of the product cannot tell they are counterfeit without testing. If you find ARP fasteners on the web for a rediculous price I would not buy them as they are very likely counterfeit. For highly stressed components like rod bolts I would not buy them unless I bought them direct from ARP themselves.

As far as Chinese manufacture rods that purport to have ARP rod bolts -- toss the bolts unless you get them tested for hardness you will never know if they are real.

I wonder how many blown built engines that had (or were supposed to have) quality aftermarket rods really had counterfeit clones of unknown source that looked identical to the brand name they were patterned after.

http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroo....cfm?id=256574
http://www.llnl.gov/es_and_h/lessons...t_bolts_e.html
http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/public...ines/sl100.pdf
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/Argo...5/an050411.htm
http://webmain02.fire.ca.gov/Pubs/Is...700/fnf028.pdf
http://www.hanford.gov/RL/?page=659&parent=609
http://www.saftek.com/worksafe/bull82.txt
http://www.choice-distribution.com/bolts.htm
http://reviews.ebay.com/INFERIOR-Gra...00000001355465
http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...001/sl.224.htm
http://ipr.eucck.org/site/documents/...art=&pKeyword=
https://bni.bechtel.com/projects/wtp...ssTraining.pdf

Larry

saintluciascooby · 10-03-2007, 06:20 AM

I must say I never by chinese product if I have a choice, quality control? they dont have any. Alloy grades ext can be anything they want. chinese = crap or chinese = cheap and some times chinese = cheap crap

STiBottom · 10-03-2007, 10:56 AM

Huh good to know

tonzo · 10-03-2007, 12:41 PM

Never heard of an eagle rod failing

moboost4u · 10-03-2007, 01:13 PM

Sounds like paranoia but its a very intresting point that I would have definitely looked over.

skimobile · 10-03-2007, 02:12 PM

I had the similar quality problems with HELIX cams (Japan). You can get crap from anywhere but you are less likely to get it from the USA than China.
It caused the death of engine #2, now engine #3 is in the process of being built and I'm sticking with quality stuff like Brian Crower, Crawford, Cosworth, etc... It's just too expensive if something goes wrong with the build because of a suspect quality part.
Also, if something does fail I would imagine it's easier going to a vendor in the US to get them to stand behind their product than trying to contact some Chinese manufacturer.

flycaster · 10-03-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moboost4u

Sounds like paranoia...

Paranoia? Heh, go ask the parents of kids who have been sucking on lead painted toys for the past 3 years about their take on that.

I agree with Larry - until Chinese manufacturers [across the board] get a better grip on QC, you're rolling the dice. It's one thing if a pair of shoes is poorly constructed, and it's another if a rod isn't up to par.

saintluciascooby · 10-03-2007, 03:31 PM

This going to sound corney, but buy American, so little is being made in the states now, lets stand behind the boys that do.

tonzo · 10-03-2007, 04:32 PM

yea but pay over 600 for a set of 4 rods or pay 300 for a set of 4 rods (that ive never heard of failing before)

_Ai_ · 10-03-2007, 07:16 PM

The reason you don't see many cheap rod failures is likely because so few are at the limits of the factory part, much less an aftermarket rod. However, with oftentimes inconsistent (relative to a quality piece) sizing, taper, etc. you may be seeing failures because of the inferior part. For instance, sticking pins or bearing failures for the builders who may not have the time, equipment, or experience to ensure proper clearances across the board.

You may not always get what you pay for, but you certainly won't get what you don't pay for.

hotrod · 10-03-2007, 09:37 PM

Even some of the big name engine builders are getting burned by bogus parts that are finding their way into the supply system. Many of the high dollar engine builders are starting to do acceptence testing on critical parts and finding occasional ringers. Even operations like NASA and the airlines are getting burned. If they can't buy trustworthy parts, what do you think your odds are buying over the internet from some cut rate auction site?

Not zinging the vendors that are trying to do the right thing, but just because they ordered it from what they believe is reliable supplier, does not mean what arrives in the box orginated from the intended manufacturer.

If you are building a 450+ hp engine you are well advised to be very careful about where you buy the most critical parts like high stress fastners, rods, etc. that can easily be duplicated all the way down to manufactures brand names, boxing and labels.

Read some of the web stories about counterfeit computer parts where everything is duplicated right down to the copyright notice on the insert instruction pages and fine print on the lables of the boxes. This is a very big money business and some very sophisticated "organizations" are running some of these counterfeit and substitution scams.

For example Joe Blow vendor buys 100 sets of rods from a brand name company then buys 50 sets of counterfeit clone rods with the same exact appearence. He ends up selling 150 sets of rods with his over all cost equal to 120 sets of rods. If anyone asks he has paper work for a legitimate purchase. Most engine builders never reach power levels to break them so the substitution is rarely noticed. Even if it is noticed it is very hard to prove.

Mean while Joe Blow pockets the cost or 30 sets of rods at $400 -$600 a set or somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000 in under the table profit.

Larry

flycaster · 10-03-2007, 10:32 PM

In your example, Joe Blow is just another scumbag looking for victims. What worries me are the small guys who don't know they're selling bogus or counterfeit parts - they're victims too, but the end user gets just as burned.

norexyet · 10-03-2007, 11:45 PM

Manley rods are made in america. They are a few minutes from our shop. Just was there the other day picking up a few sets of rods. We have used them in our past 4 motors and they are doing very well. PM me if you need a set.

hotrod · 10-04-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

What worries me are the small guys who don't know they're selling bogus or counterfeit parts - they're victims too, but the end user gets just as burned.

Exactly ---- that is the situation with the engine build shop above and the crankshafts. He was trying to buy crankshafts from a shop he believed had quality products for his engine builds and got substituted goods without his knowledge when the jobber tried to cut some corners on cost. He is taking it in the shorts to make things good with his customers and may not ever recover his costs from the jobber who ripped him off by selling him inferior crankshafts.

Larry

fogdor · 10-04-2007, 12:34 AM

Certain elements of Chinese industry will forge anything. I've even heard of Cisco core routers with "bad" logic boards that turned out to be forgeries.

n2oiroc · 10-05-2007, 01:47 AM

so can we start a list of rods and where they are forged/machined? please make sure your info is correct when you post, some companies say made in the usa, but that could just mean the final machining.

cobb: usa/usa
eagle: china/usa
pauter: ?/?
crower: usa/usa
manley h-beam: ?/?
manley i-beam: ?/?
oliver: ?/?
carrillo: usa/usa
cosworth: ?/?
helix: ?/?

wrxwhat · 10-05-2007, 02:43 AM

Manley rods are made in America. They made their names in domestic cars and have been getting into imports. They are in my car.

hotrod · 10-05-2007, 04:02 AM

It is not as simple as it looks as many of these companies have multiple factories and produce products in multiple locations. The following is compiled from posts from another board I sometimes hang out on, that is very heavy on world class professional engine builders. I believe the info as accurate as you are likely to find as bad info rarely shows up there without being challenged.

Some of these only produce products for domestic markets.
It is very difficult to pin down exactly where a specific item is made. I have no problem with a company that for cost competitiveness reasons has raw materials cast or rough forged in China, if they are serious about managing quality control and stand behind their brand name. Casting is very difficult to do in the U.S. for cost reasons as it is a very labor intensive industry and quite frankly much of the work does not require much skilled labor other than the management.

Manley rods, Callies(Compstar) cranks, and Mahle pistons are not "American" as the do have product produced overseas but they have good reputations of producing qualtity products. Mahle for example has 22 factories around the world. The Clevite Group has 16 factories world wide. Mahle pistons are produced in germany, tennensee, brazil, and from mexico. Clevite uses taiwan gaskets in their kits but mostly minor stuff like o-rings and stamped paper gaskets. Many so called American parts have part of their manufacturing process in Mexico or some other location if that step of production is labor intensive. In short the idea of "Made in America" is out of date and nearly impossible to define in todays multinational markets. The big companies like AC Delco etc. make products where ever it is cheapest both due to labor costs but also import export tarrifs taxes etc. What is important is does the brand produce a quality product? Do they have a U.S. office you can go to if you have a problem? Will they stand behind their products if they screw up.
It was only about 40 years ago that "made in Japan" ment made out of junk! Markets and manufacturing changes with time, and due to changes in tax laws, environmental laws, shipping costs, etc. etc.

ACL bearings made in Australia
Eagle Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Scat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Cat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Eaton Valves=China
King Brgs=Israel
Sealed Power Valves=S.Africa
Mahle Pistons=Mexico/China

Manley Rods= (home office Lakewood, New Jersey, pro series rods machined in NJ)
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...20-valves.html
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...ej20-rods.html
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/

S.I. Valves=China
Eagle/Scat=China
Ferreas Valves=Argentina
Speed-Pro Race Valves=Brazil
Zoom Clutches=China
Delco Parts=Singapore
K-B Pistons=Mexico
Callies=Japan
Ferrea and Engine Pro branded valves are made in Argentina.

Finally just because it is made in America does not mean it is good or American. Many times the corporation is headquartered in some other country and has bought out a traditional American brand name and are maintaining it for brand identity purposes (B.F. Goodrich tires owned by Michelin). Then you have the car manufactures like Subaru and Toyota etc. that make some of their product lines or at least assemble them in a different country than the base components are produced in.

http://www.eepcindia.org/bulletin/b2...APIUSA0838.pdf

Larry

bboy · 10-05-2007, 12:23 PM

Oliver is USA
Cosworth is NZ
Pauter is USA

I own the Oliver "light" rods. They are old skool to look at, but strong and well made. 115g lighter than stock per rod.

jaxscuby · 10-05-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norexyet

Manley rods are made in america. They are a few minutes from our shop. Just was there the other day picking up a few sets of rods. We have used them in our past 4 motors and they are doing very well. PM me if you need a set.

just a heads up..your post might get you into some trouble..

vendor status to peddle parts...

norexyet · 10-05-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxscuby

just a heads up..your post might get you into some trouble..

vendor status to peddle parts...

you're right. I should have made the post under my shop's name since we are a vendor.

0to60 man · 10-08-2007, 04:04 AM

funny just like rusky comunisum is "bad" we went to war with SO MANY countries when we shouldnt have we ilegalized cuban stuff and now we are throwing money to the american auto engineers. the ones who make the worst cars in the world... "patriotism" its likely they r either pricey as hell or are made by illegal immigrants. another example of how "great" we are: spent milions on dev of space pen that cud write upside down. ruskies used a pencil. good job us! now japan i can understnd but america..EagleFTW!

10-02-2007, 11:35 PM	#1
n2oiroc Scooby Specialist Member#: 141952 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: milwaukee, wi Vehicle: 03 emo 8/2011 wrx	rod questions does anyone know if the manley h beam rods are forged in china like the eagle rods? any other rods around $600 or less that arent forged in china? * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

10-03-2007, 02:12 PM	#9
skimobile Scooby Specialist Member#: 92114 Join Date: Jul 2005 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Westerly, RI Vehicle: 03 WRX Bugeye 2.61L Hybrid Track Toy	I had the similar quality problems with HELIX cams (Japan). You can get crap from anywhere but you are less likely to get it from the USA than China. It caused the death of engine #2, now engine #3 is in the process of being built and I'm sticking with quality stuff like Brian Crower, Crawford, Cosworth, etc... It's just too expensive if something goes wrong with the build because of a suspect quality part. Also, if something does fail I would imagine it's easier going to a vendor in the US to get them to stand behind their product than trying to contact some Chinese manufacturer. Last edited by skimobile; 10-03-2007 at 02:18 PM.

10-05-2007, 04:02 AM	#21
hotrod Scooby Specialist Member#: 14141 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 13.239@102.85 @ 5800 ft on 13T Vehicle: 2002 Impreza WRX e85forum.net	It is not as simple as it looks as many of these companies have multiple factories and produce products in multiple locations. The following is compiled from posts from another board I sometimes hang out on, that is very heavy on world class professional engine builders. I believe the info as accurate as you are likely to find as bad info rarely shows up there without being challenged. Some of these only produce products for domestic markets. It is very difficult to pin down exactly where a specific item is made. I have no problem with a company that for cost competitiveness reasons has raw materials cast or rough forged in China, if they are serious about managing quality control and stand behind their brand name. Casting is very difficult to do in the U.S. for cost reasons as it is a very labor intensive industry and quite frankly much of the work does not require much skilled labor other than the management. Manley rods, Callies(Compstar) cranks, and Mahle pistons are not "American" as the do have product produced overseas but they have good reputations of producing qualtity products. Mahle for example has 22 factories around the world. The Clevite Group has 16 factories world wide. Mahle pistons are produced in germany, tennensee, brazil, and from mexico. Clevite uses taiwan gaskets in their kits but mostly minor stuff like o-rings and stamped paper gaskets. Many so called American parts have part of their manufacturing process in Mexico or some other location if that step of production is labor intensive. In short the idea of "Made in America" is out of date and nearly impossible to define in todays multinational markets. The big companies like AC Delco etc. make products where ever it is cheapest both due to labor costs but also import export tarrifs taxes etc. What is important is does the brand produce a quality product? Do they have a U.S. office you can go to if you have a problem? Will they stand behind their products if they screw up. It was only about 40 years ago that "made in Japan" ment made out of junk! Markets and manufacturing changes with time, and due to changes in tax laws, environmental laws, shipping costs, etc. etc. ACL bearings made in Australia Eagle Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA Scat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA Cat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA Eaton Valves=China King Brgs=Israel Sealed Power Valves=S.Africa Mahle Pistons=Mexico/China Manley Rods= (home office Lakewood, New Jersey, pro series rods machined in NJ) http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...20-valves.html http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...ej20-rods.html http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/ S.I. Valves=China Eagle/Scat=China Ferreas Valves=Argentina Speed-Pro Race Valves=Brazil Zoom Clutches=China Delco Parts=Singapore K-B Pistons=Mexico Callies=Japan Ferrea and Engine Pro branded valves are made in Argentina. Finally just because it is made in America does not mean it is good or American. Many times the corporation is headquartered in some other country and has bought out a traditional American brand name and are maintaining it for brand identity purposes (B.F. Goodrich tires owned by Michelin). Then you have the car manufactures like Subaru and Toyota etc. that make some of their product lines or at least assemble them in a different country than the base components are produced in. http://www.eepcindia.org/bulletin/b2...APIUSA0838.pdf Larry Last edited by hotrod; 10-05-2007 at 05:11 AM.

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10-03-2007, 12:10 AM	#2
STiBottom Scooby Specialist Member#: 127041 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Marietta, GA Vehicle: 02 WRX Midnight Blue Pearl	Why does it matter where they are made?

10-03-2007, 06:20 AM	#5
saintluciascooby Scooby Specialist Member#: 109527 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Vehicle: 1997 GC8 8.38@165Mph blue	I must say I never by chinese product if I have a choice, quality control? they dont have any. Alloy grades ext can be anything they want. chinese = crap or chinese = cheap and some times chinese = cheap crap

10-03-2007, 10:56 AM	#6
STiBottom Scooby Specialist Member#: 127041 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Marietta, GA Vehicle: 02 WRX Midnight Blue Pearl	Huh good to know

10-03-2007, 12:41 PM	#7
tonzo Scooby Specialist Member#: 94903 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NY Vehicle: 1996 Impreza Wagon! Satin Black	Never heard of an eagle rod failing

10-03-2007, 01:13 PM	#8
moboost4u Scooby Newbie Member#: 160429 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Buffalo Vehicle: 2005 STi JBP	Sounds like paranoia but its a very intresting point that I would have definitely looked over.

10-03-2007, 03:31 PM	#11
saintluciascooby Scooby Specialist Member#: 109527 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Vehicle: 1997 GC8 8.38@165Mph blue	This going to sound corney, but buy American, so little is being made in the states now, lets stand behind the boys that do.

10-03-2007, 04:32 PM	#12
tonzo Scooby Specialist Member#: 94903 Join Date: Aug 2005 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: NY Vehicle: 1996 Impreza Wagon! Satin Black	yea but pay over 600 for a set of 4 rods or pay 300 for a set of 4 rods (that ive never heard of failing before)

10-03-2007, 07:16 PM	#13
_Ai_ Scooby Newbie Member#: 70714 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Charlotte, NC Vehicle: 2005 STi Crystal Grey	The reason you don't see many cheap rod failures is likely because so few are at the limits of the factory part, much less an aftermarket rod. However, with oftentimes inconsistent (relative to a quality piece) sizing, taper, etc. you may be seeing failures because of the inferior part. For instance, sticking pins or bearing failures for the builders who may not have the time, equipment, or experience to ensure proper clearances across the board. You may not always get what you pay for, but you certainly won't get what you don't pay for.

10-03-2007, 09:37 PM	#14
hotrod Scooby Specialist Member#: 14141 Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 13.239@102.85 @ 5800 ft on 13T Vehicle: 2002 Impreza WRX e85forum.net	Even some of the big name engine builders are getting burned by bogus parts that are finding their way into the supply system. Many of the high dollar engine builders are starting to do acceptence testing on critical parts and finding occasional ringers. Even operations like NASA and the airlines are getting burned. If they can't buy trustworthy parts, what do you think your odds are buying over the internet from some cut rate auction site? Not zinging the vendors that are trying to do the right thing, but just because they ordered it from what they believe is reliable supplier, does not mean what arrives in the box orginated from the intended manufacturer. If you are building a 450+ hp engine you are well advised to be very careful about where you buy the most critical parts like high stress fastners, rods, etc. that can easily be duplicated all the way down to manufactures brand names, boxing and labels. Read some of the web stories about counterfeit computer parts where everything is duplicated right down to the copyright notice on the insert instruction pages and fine print on the lables of the boxes. This is a very big money business and some very sophisticated "organizations" are running some of these counterfeit and substitution scams. For example Joe Blow vendor buys 100 sets of rods from a brand name company then buys 50 sets of counterfeit clone rods with the same exact appearence. He ends up selling 150 sets of rods with his over all cost equal to 120 sets of rods. If anyone asks he has paper work for a legitimate purchase. Most engine builders never reach power levels to break them so the substitution is rarely noticed. Even if it is noticed it is very hard to prove. Mean while Joe Blow pockets the cost or 30 sets of rods at $400 -$600 a set or somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000 in under the table profit. Larry

10-03-2007, 10:32 PM	#15
flycaster Scooby Specialist Member#: 60142 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bend, OR Vehicle: 2011 WRX Grey	In your example, Joe Blow is just another scumbag looking for victims. What worries me are the small guys who don't know they're selling bogus or counterfeit parts - they're victims too, but the end user gets just as burned.

10-03-2007, 11:45 PM	#16
norexyet Scooby Specialist Member#: 39149 Join Date: Jun 2003 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Wild Rides Race Cars Vehicle: 11 elantra yea i said elantra	Manley rods are made in america. They are a few minutes from our shop. Just was there the other day picking up a few sets of rods. We have used them in our past 4 motors and they are doing very well. PM me if you need a set.

10-04-2007, 12:34 AM	#18
fogdor Scooby Specialist Member#: 45726 Join Date: Oct 2003 Vehicle: 2007 Mazdaspeed3 Cosmic Blue	Certain elements of Chinese industry will forge anything. I've even heard of Cisco core routers with "bad" logic boards that turned out to be forgeries.

10-05-2007, 01:47 AM	#19
n2oiroc Scooby Specialist Member#: 141952 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: milwaukee, wi Vehicle: 03 emo 8/2011 wrx	so can we start a list of rods and where they are forged/machined? please make sure your info is correct when you post, some companies say made in the usa, but that could just mean the final machining. cobb: usa/usa eagle: china/usa pauter: ?/? crower: usa/usa manley h-beam: ?/? manley i-beam: ?/? oliver: ?/? carrillo: usa/usa cosworth: ?/? helix: ?/?

10-05-2007, 02:43 AM	#20
wrxwhat Scooby Specialist Member#: 87653 Join Date: May 2005 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Orlando, FL Vehicle: 07 STI / 97 Supra 1700whp of fun	Manley rods are made in America. They made their names in domestic cars and have been getting into imports. They are in my car.

10-05-2007, 12:23 PM	#22
bboy Scooby Specialist Member#: 56468 Join Date: Mar 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Seattle, WA Vehicle: 04 Improved STI Dirty White	Oliver is USA Cosworth is NZ Pauter is USA I own the Oliver "light" rods. They are old skool to look at, but strong and well made. 115g lighter than stock per rod.

10-08-2007, 04:04 AM	#25
0to60 man Scooby Newbie Member#: 161205 Join Date: Oct 2007	funny just like rusky comunisum is "bad" we went to war with SO MANY countries when we shouldnt have we ilegalized cuban stuff and now we are throwing money to the american auto engineers. the ones who make the worst cars in the world... "patriotism" its likely they r either pricey as hell or are made by illegal immigrants. another example of how "great" we are: spent milions on dev of space pen that cud write upside down. ruskies used a pencil. good job us! now japan i can understnd but america..EagleFTW!