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Old 10-02-2007, 11:35 PM   #1
n2oiroc
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Default rod questions

does anyone know if the manley h beam rods are forged in china like the eagle rods? any other rods around $600 or less that arent forged in china?
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:10 AM   #2
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Why does it matter where they are made?
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiBottom View Post
Why does it matter where they are made?
i know eagle makes good rods, but i would just feel more comfortable with japanese or american made parts. petty? a little, but thats how i roll!
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Why does it matter where they are made?
Because the Chinese manufactures do not have a good handle on quality control especially for one of the most highly stressed parts in the engine.

Odds are if the part is unusually cheap (low end of the range) it is cast or forged in China or India. In some cases the parts are final machined in the U.S. but there have been some quality control horror stories with the low cost Chinese made cranks and rods. Many of the professional builders in the top levels of racing have seen some very expensive failures due to poor quality control.

I know of one engine builder that purchased 20 crankshafts from an American company he trusted, unknown to him the company had switched to a chinese import crank supplier. He installed 8 of the cranks 5 of that 8 have broken, (one only had 10 miles on it), one was bent 0.010 and another has one throw twisted far enough it is visible to the naked eye. All because the cranks were using cheap cast iron that was softer than the stock crankshaft. He is now dealing with some pissed off customers because he did not pretest the new cranks for hardness and discover the substitution before sending them out the door. He also had to recall the other 12 cranks.


They are also making lots of knock off counterfeit products that are so good even the real manufacture of the product cannot tell they are counterfeit without testing. If you find ARP fasteners on the web for a rediculous price I would not buy them as they are very likely counterfeit. For highly stressed components like rod bolts I would not buy them unless I bought them direct from ARP themselves.

As far as Chinese manufacture rods that purport to have ARP rod bolts -- toss the bolts unless you get them tested for hardness you will never know if they are real.

I wonder how many blown built engines that had (or were supposed to have) quality aftermarket rods really had counterfeit clones of unknown source that looked identical to the brand name they were patterned after.

http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroo....cfm?id=256574
http://www.llnl.gov/es_and_h/lessons...t_bolts_e.html
http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/public...ines/sl100.pdf
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/Argo...5/an050411.htm
http://webmain02.fire.ca.gov/Pubs/Is...700/fnf028.pdf
http://www.hanford.gov/RL/?page=659&parent=609
http://www.saftek.com/worksafe/bull82.txt
http://www.choice-distribution.com/bolts.htm
http://reviews.ebay.com/INFERIOR-Gra...00000001355465
http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...001/sl.224.htm
http://ipr.eucck.org/site/documents/...art=&pKeyword=
https://bni.bechtel.com/projects/wtp...ssTraining.pdf

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 10-03-2007 at 05:59 AM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:20 AM   #5
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I must say I never by chinese product if I have a choice, quality control? they dont have any. Alloy grades ext can be anything they want. chinese = crap or chinese = cheap and some times chinese = cheap crap
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:56 AM   #6
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Huh good to know
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:41 PM   #7
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Never heard of an eagle rod failing
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Old 10-03-2007, 01:13 PM   #8
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Sounds like paranoia but its a very intresting point that I would have definitely looked over.
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Old 10-03-2007, 02:12 PM   #9
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I had the similar quality problems with HELIX cams (Japan). You can get crap from anywhere but you are less likely to get it from the USA than China.
It caused the death of engine #2, now engine #3 is in the process of being built and I'm sticking with quality stuff like Brian Crower, Crawford, Cosworth, etc... It's just too expensive if something goes wrong with the build because of a suspect quality part.
Also, if something does fail I would imagine it's easier going to a vendor in the US to get them to stand behind their product than trying to contact some Chinese manufacturer.

Last edited by skimobile; 10-03-2007 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 02:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moboost4u View Post
Sounds like paranoia...
Paranoia? Heh, go ask the parents of kids who have been sucking on lead painted toys for the past 3 years about their take on that.

I agree with Larry - until Chinese manufacturers [across the board] get a better grip on QC, you're rolling the dice. It's one thing if a pair of shoes is poorly constructed, and it's another if a rod isn't up to par.
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Old 10-03-2007, 03:31 PM   #11
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This going to sound corney, but buy American, so little is being made in the states now, lets stand behind the boys that do.
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:32 PM   #12
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yea but pay over 600 for a set of 4 rods or pay 300 for a set of 4 rods (that ive never heard of failing before)
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:16 PM   #13
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The reason you don't see many cheap rod failures is likely because so few are at the limits of the factory part, much less an aftermarket rod. However, with oftentimes inconsistent (relative to a quality piece) sizing, taper, etc. you may be seeing failures because of the inferior part. For instance, sticking pins or bearing failures for the builders who may not have the time, equipment, or experience to ensure proper clearances across the board.

You may not always get what you pay for, but you certainly won't get what you don't pay for.
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Old 10-03-2007, 09:37 PM   #14
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Even some of the big name engine builders are getting burned by bogus parts that are finding their way into the supply system. Many of the high dollar engine builders are starting to do acceptence testing on critical parts and finding occasional ringers. Even operations like NASA and the airlines are getting burned. If they can't buy trustworthy parts, what do you think your odds are buying over the internet from some cut rate auction site?

Not zinging the vendors that are trying to do the right thing, but just because they ordered it from what they believe is reliable supplier, does not mean what arrives in the box orginated from the intended manufacturer.

If you are building a 450+ hp engine you are well advised to be very careful about where you buy the most critical parts like high stress fastners, rods, etc. that can easily be duplicated all the way down to manufactures brand names, boxing and labels.

Read some of the web stories about counterfeit computer parts where everything is duplicated right down to the copyright notice on the insert instruction pages and fine print on the lables of the boxes. This is a very big money business and some very sophisticated "organizations" are running some of these counterfeit and substitution scams.

For example Joe Blow vendor buys 100 sets of rods from a brand name company then buys 50 sets of counterfeit clone rods with the same exact appearence. He ends up selling 150 sets of rods with his over all cost equal to 120 sets of rods. If anyone asks he has paper work for a legitimate purchase. Most engine builders never reach power levels to break them so the substitution is rarely noticed. Even if it is noticed it is very hard to prove.

Mean while Joe Blow pockets the cost or 30 sets of rods at $400 -$600 a set or somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000 in under the table profit.

Larry
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:32 PM   #15
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In your example, Joe Blow is just another scumbag looking for victims. What worries me are the small guys who don't know they're selling bogus or counterfeit parts - they're victims too, but the end user gets just as burned.
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:45 PM   #16
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Manley rods are made in america. They are a few minutes from our shop. Just was there the other day picking up a few sets of rods. We have used them in our past 4 motors and they are doing very well. PM me if you need a set.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:28 AM   #17
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What worries me are the small guys who don't know they're selling bogus or counterfeit parts - they're victims too, but the end user gets just as burned.
Exactly ---- that is the situation with the engine build shop above and the crankshafts. He was trying to buy crankshafts from a shop he believed had quality products for his engine builds and got substituted goods without his knowledge when the jobber tried to cut some corners on cost. He is taking it in the shorts to make things good with his customers and may not ever recover his costs from the jobber who ripped him off by selling him inferior crankshafts.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 10-04-2007 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:34 AM   #18
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Certain elements of Chinese industry will forge anything. I've even heard of Cisco core routers with "bad" logic boards that turned out to be forgeries.
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Old 10-05-2007, 01:47 AM   #19
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so can we start a list of rods and where they are forged/machined? please make sure your info is correct when you post, some companies say made in the usa, but that could just mean the final machining.

cobb: usa/usa
eagle: china/usa
pauter: ?/?
crower: usa/usa
manley h-beam: ?/?
manley i-beam: ?/?
oliver: ?/?
carrillo: usa/usa
cosworth: ?/?
helix: ?/?
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Old 10-05-2007, 02:43 AM   #20
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Manley rods are made in America. They made their names in domestic cars and have been getting into imports. They are in my car.
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Old 10-05-2007, 04:02 AM   #21
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It is not as simple as it looks as many of these companies have multiple factories and produce products in multiple locations. The following is compiled from posts from another board I sometimes hang out on, that is very heavy on world class professional engine builders. I believe the info as accurate as you are likely to find as bad info rarely shows up there without being challenged.

Some of these only produce products for domestic markets.
It is very difficult to pin down exactly where a specific item is made. I have no problem with a company that for cost competitiveness reasons has raw materials cast or rough forged in China, if they are serious about managing quality control and stand behind their brand name. Casting is very difficult to do in the U.S. for cost reasons as it is a very labor intensive industry and quite frankly much of the work does not require much skilled labor other than the management.

Manley rods, Callies(Compstar) cranks, and Mahle pistons are not "American" as the do have product produced overseas but they have good reputations of producing qualtity products. Mahle for example has 22 factories around the world. The Clevite Group has 16 factories world wide. Mahle pistons are produced in germany, tennensee, brazil, and from mexico. Clevite uses taiwan gaskets in their kits but mostly minor stuff like o-rings and stamped paper gaskets. Many so called American parts have part of their manufacturing process in Mexico or some other location if that step of production is labor intensive. In short the idea of "Made in America" is out of date and nearly impossible to define in todays multinational markets. The big companies like AC Delco etc. make products where ever it is cheapest both due to labor costs but also import export tarrifs taxes etc. What is important is does the brand produce a quality product? Do they have a U.S. office you can go to if you have a problem? Will they stand behind their products if they screw up.
It was only about 40 years ago that "made in Japan" ment made out of junk! Markets and manufacturing changes with time, and due to changes in tax laws, environmental laws, shipping costs, etc. etc.

ACL bearings made in Australia
Eagle Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Scat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Cat Forged in China w/Chinese Steel - Machined in USA
Eaton Valves=China
King Brgs=Israel
Sealed Power Valves=S.Africa
Mahle Pistons=Mexico/China

Manley Rods= (home office Lakewood, New Jersey, pro series rods machined in NJ)
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...20-valves.html
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/...ej20-rods.html
http://www.manleyperformance.com/sc/

S.I. Valves=China
Eagle/Scat=China
Ferreas Valves=Argentina
Speed-Pro Race Valves=Brazil
Zoom Clutches=China
Delco Parts=Singapore
K-B Pistons=Mexico
Callies=Japan
Ferrea and Engine Pro branded valves are made in Argentina.


Finally just because it is made in America does not mean it is good or American. Many times the corporation is headquartered in some other country and has bought out a traditional American brand name and are maintaining it for brand identity purposes (B.F. Goodrich tires owned by Michelin). Then you have the car manufactures like Subaru and Toyota etc. that make some of their product lines or at least assemble them in a different country than the base components are produced in.


http://www.eepcindia.org/bulletin/b2...APIUSA0838.pdf

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 10-05-2007 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 10-05-2007, 12:23 PM   #22
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Oliver is USA
Cosworth is NZ
Pauter is USA

I own the Oliver "light" rods. They are old skool to look at, but strong and well made. 115g lighter than stock per rod.
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Old 10-05-2007, 05:29 PM   #23
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Default very close..

Quote:
Originally Posted by norexyet View Post
Manley rods are made in america. They are a few minutes from our shop. Just was there the other day picking up a few sets of rods. We have used them in our past 4 motors and they are doing very well. PM me if you need a set.
just a heads up..your post might get you into some trouble..

vendor status to peddle parts...
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Old 10-05-2007, 05:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
just a heads up..your post might get you into some trouble..

vendor status to peddle parts...
you're right. I should have made the post under my shop's name since we are a vendor.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:04 AM   #25
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funny just like rusky comunisum is "bad" we went to war with SO MANY countries when we shouldnt have we ilegalized cuban stuff and now we are throwing money to the american auto engineers. the ones who make the worst cars in the world... "patriotism" its likely they r either pricey as hell or are made by illegal immigrants. another example of how "great" we are: spent milions on dev of space pen that cud write upside down. ruskies used a pencil. good job us! now japan i can understnd but america..EagleFTW!
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