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Old 10-29-2007, 03:01 PM   #1
jhargis
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Default 625cc Injectors: Getting settings right for tip-in fueling

Alight... So I got some denso 625cc injectors that aperantly nobody has heard of in preparation for my VF-39 install. I put them in, fit nicely, turned on the car and got black exhaust smoke and rough idle, so they're definitely much bigger than the stock injectors (but they look absolutely identical, even almost the same color: slightly darker blue vs. teal). They are definitely not any kind of modded stock injectors, as the color is far enough different and the "cap" has a slightly different spray hole pattern with slightly bigger holes.

Anyways, I hopped on enginunuity and got to tuning. I found that setting the scaling to 635cc got my A/F learning to hold at 0 most of the time and A/F doesn't fluctuate by more than ~3.54 in either direction (only saw a flutctuaion to .74 in the learning every now and again). The car idles as smooth as stock and runs pretty nicely through the power band. On stock fuel maps, A/F ratios stay about where they were w/ stock injectors based on the front O2 sensor reading (yes I know, it's bad juju and I will double check with a wideband before I push it, before you go flaming me). The injector duty cycles are pretty close proportionally to what the stock injectors were reading (Injectors are ~30% larger and the duty cycle is generally ~30% less than with stock injectors).

The single issue I have left to sort out *I think* is the setting for tip-in enrichment as I sometimes get a slight very quick bog in between. Half the time it's not even noticable and only at lower rpms as I am engaging the clutch (won't bog at all in neutral), but I would prefer to have it spot on. Cobb's tuning guide mentioned that tip-in setting should generally decrease with bigger injectors. SO... does anybody know the best way to get good tip-in enrichment? Otherwise, it's my usual guess and check method.

OR... the same guy that I got these from was selling a few sets in the classified a couple of months ago, does anybody have these 625cc injectors that can provide some insight?
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Last edited by jhargis; 10-29-2007 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:52 PM   #2
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First off you need a wideband to make sure a/f ratios ARE correct. Second just make small reductions in the first couple of cells in the tip in map to get rid of the bog.

just my 2 cents
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:54 PM   #3
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did you change any of the Injector Latency settigns as well? OR did you just change the injector flow scaling?

grabbing at straws, but why not change your tip in to be 30% less than what it is now?
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Old 10-29-2007, 04:18 PM   #4
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- Yes a wideband is preferable, and yes I will check it with one to be on the safe side. I mentioned this in my first post. All other signs are pointing to safe fueling, as I am not seeing any knock problems, and the stock sensor is at least reading roughly the same as it was reading with stock fueling on stock injectors. Not perfect insurance, but it's a start until I can get access to a wideband.

- The seller suggested leaving the latency stock. Impedance and injector type are identical to stock. I've noticed most people seem to leave this the same latency in for pinks as well. I tried a couple of sets of latency values that folks were posting on openecu/enginuity/nasioc forums for modded injectors and found that it did not run as well, so I went back to the stock latency values. The car runs great as far as I can tell except for that slight occasional hesitation when shifting. I'll try your suggestion on the bump the tip-in down 30%. I left it as is because I saw that a lot of other maps for pinks on the 2.0 left the tip-in as is, but I think the extra flow of these injectors may require a change. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:02 PM   #5
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OK, so I kinda combined the advice of both of you and kept it conservative at first. I brought the first 4 values down 20% and there's a definite improvement in throttle response while shifting. That still doesn't cover the last few percent of throttle position, as I looged my throttle position during shifts and see that I tend to put in maybe about 13-18% throttle while shifting, but I only tuned up to ~10% throttle position (don't remeber the exact figure on the map) I think I'll try to go down 20% across the board from the stock values and if it still doesn't seem perfect, I'll try a 30% decrease.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:23 PM   #6
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I did a survey of WRX and STI roms. Just to see if the latency setting varied. What I saw is that all the latencies for WRX's, even with different injectors were the same. On the STI's though, the latency numbers were fairly different per rom.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:24 PM   #7
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There is a thread on the Enginuity site that deals with MAF calibration and provides a nice spreadsheet with macros that will calculate the adjustments you need make to the MAF (you have to log a lot of data first). Assuming you are using the same air intake as before, you should adjust your injector scaling such that MAF is already calibrated (i.e. 0% change or close to it)-- the adjustment/correction values sum to zero.

If you entered 625 or 635 as the scaling factor and it came close to working, I'd say your injectors are not 625, maybe more like 650-700 cc/min. For instance, 565 injectors scale at 505 value and 860 injectors scale at 775--it's not even close to the actual flow number at 43.5 psi and 80% duty. Now.....you can make it so the injector scalar is exactly the value, but then you have to rescale the MAF.

Find out more about the injectors. That is the place to start.
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Old 10-30-2007, 02:58 PM   #8
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I'm really pretty happy with the setup right now, I was expecting the turbo and injector swap to be more of a pain in the neck, but other than getting the tip-in spot on, everything seems to be pretty going smooth. And man, that vf-39 makes a world of difference in higher rpm performance, really changes the character of the car. I was disappointed at how it was pulling the first time I got on it until the needle crossed 4500rpm and the engine woke up all of a sudden

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I did a survey of WRX and STI roms. Just to see if the latency setting varied. What I saw is that all the latencies for WRX's, even with different injectors were the same. On the STI's though, the latency numbers were fairly different per rom.
That's pretty much what I found. I dug up various 2.0 maps I could find and it seemd that the vast majority of maps that I found with any denso injector (stock, pink, etc.) had the stock latency value in there. So I'm guessing that as long as the injector is the same style denso type, then latency is not quite as important as it might be when you change to a different brand? Or maybe the ecu is just good enough at hiding it... I don't know.

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Originally Posted by bboy View Post
There is a thread on the Enginuity site that deals with MAF calibration and provides a nice spreadsheet with macros that will calculate the adjustments you need make to the MAF (you have to log a lot of data first). Assuming you are using the same air intake as before, you should adjust your injector scaling such that MAF is already calibrated (i.e. 0% change or close to it)-- the adjustment/correction values sum to zero.

If you entered 625 or 635 as the scaling factor and it came close to working, I'd say your injectors are not 625, maybe more like 650-700 cc/min. For instance, 565 injectors scale at 505 value and 860 injectors scale at 775--it's not even close to the actual flow number at 43.5 psi and 80% duty. Now.....you can make it so the injector scalar is exactly the value, but then you have to rescale the MAF.

Find out more about the injectors. That is the place to start.
The interesting thing is that with the injectors at ~33% bigger in rated flow than stock and set at 635cc in the ecu, the duty cycle floats right around the 33% decrease throughout the powerband in relation to the stock injectors. Maybe they flow a bit more, but it seems like it wouldn't be running right if the duty cycles were where I'd expect while the flow is ~50cc+ higher than rated. And the most A/F learning I see is like .74, but sits at 0 most of the time, does that sound about right?

I switched to ev8sive's vf fuel/boost maps and the boost is rock solid at 16 psi (right where it's supposed to be) without any tweaking. And even with that and stock timing I could not get a negative KC value in the logs in any gear at any throttle position. In fact it was up to a positive 6 in some areas. So I'm guessing the tune is fairly safe, at least from a knock standpoint. My engine just crossed 100k miles, so I'd rather keep the fuel and timing on the safe side, even if it costs me a few horses, especially with the bigger turbo.

For now I think I'll leave most of the tune right where it is. But I still need to do some tweaking to the tip-in values to get optimal throttle response.
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Old 10-30-2007, 03:43 PM   #9
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What about the AF correction? You need both learning and correction and you need to log under many load conditions not just at idle.

VF39 on a WRX means rescaling the fuel and timing tables for more load. I don't know where you got your maps, but you don't want to run off the map. You say things like "stock timing" and it makes me wonder.
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Old 10-30-2007, 04:05 PM   #10
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You mean "run off the edge of the map"? Like running the load up and beyond the load sites in the map?
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Old 10-30-2007, 05:01 PM   #11
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I've based much of mine off of Ev8siv3's (XPT) VF/pinks 91 octane map. It seemed to be getting good reviews so I figured it would be a good place to start. I checked through all the fuel/timing/maf/boost related maps specifically for any major changes, and to my surprize not much was really drastically changed outside of what I would expect even as somewhat of a novice at this. No major re-scaling of anything that I could detect other than maybe injector scaling.

Admittedly, my subaru is the first car I've really gotten into computer tuning with. Before that it was dialing in carbs and changing distributor timing weights on twin-turbocharged V8s. While this is quite a departure from jetting a carb, I'd imagine the same basics apply. Good power increase on a car that runs nicely + no evidence of knock + seemingly reasonable fuel economy for the setup is pretty much what I'm getting... I'd figure that's at least a decent start. Though I'd like to get a wideband on there and maybe a good pyrometer to make sure eveything is as it seems. I'm really not looking to squeeze every last drop of power that I can get out of this setup... just looking for a reaosnably safe and driveable tune.

Last edited by jhargis; 10-30-2007 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:13 PM   #12
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Yeah, I'm not going any further without a wideband. J, have you looked at the tip-in maps for the Suby's with larger injectors? Like the 02/03 JDM STI maps?
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Old 10-30-2007, 09:10 PM   #13
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Hmmm... no I haven't, but that's a darn good idea.

As for "falling off the edge of the map" I see what you're talking about. I copied over the row of load values as well for fuel and timing from ev8siv3's maps when I began, now the load goes up to 5.00... so that shouldn't be a problem. For some reason I was drawing a blank on that until looking at changes I've made now that I'm on my laptop at home. Brainfart I suppose.

I'm about to reflash with all of the tip in-values decreased by 25% and see how that goes. If it's not to my liking, then I very well may take your advice on looking at tip in values from other maps with similarly sized injectors. May look to see if can't find any other differences in latency and such as well. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:03 PM   #14
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OK... so I reduced all tip-in values by 25%, then by 30% and it is running rather nicely, seems like the bog is pretty much gone. I might play around with the values a tiny bit more to see if I can get throttle even more responsive, but I'm pretty happy with it now. I compared my tip-in map to the 2003 JDM STi and was pleased to see that my reduced values were very close to the STi, maybe I'll give those values a try just to see what happens. And the latency values were identical, looks like they just changed the scaling, though the maf scaling was slightly different... not sure if they did that to accomdate the larger injectors, but with different emissions standards and a twin scroll turbo, I'd think the intake/airbox/maf is likely physically different from my USDM '02 anyway.
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Old 11-01-2007, 10:22 AM   #15
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ive been trying to get my tip in values right for my 850 injectors, and its been a process of 4 weeks and counting.. its not easy
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Old 11-01-2007, 11:01 AM   #16
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I was looking at my logs and noticing I'm pulling timing on rapid movement of the accelerator. If I roll into the accelerator, it works great. If I nail it, I see signs of knock. If it goes from say 20 to 100% in under a second, I see knock. It I do it in 2 seconds, there's none.
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
OK... so I reduced all tip-in values by 25%, then by 30% and it is running rather nicely, seems like the bog is pretty much gone. I might play around with the values a tiny bit more to see if I can get throttle even more responsive, but I'm pretty happy with it now. I compared my tip-in map to the 2003 JDM STi and was pleased to see that my reduced values were very close to the STi, maybe I'll give those values a try just to see what happens. And the latency values were identical, looks like they just changed the scaling, though the maf scaling was slightly different... not sure if they did that to accomdate the larger injectors, but with different emissions standards and a twin scroll turbo, I'd think the intake/airbox/maf is likely physically different from my USDM '02 anyway.
Could you link me to where you found the jdm sti maps?
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Old 11-01-2007, 01:10 PM   #18
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OSECU has them.
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:55 PM   #19
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If you don't have one, get an account w/ www.osecuroms.org

It won't show the downloadable maps on the forum until you can log in. They are categorized by model year and type (stock or modified). Dig around in there...

From my experience and MasterKwan's advice, I'd say a good place to start on tip-in values is to reduce the entire range of tip-in values by the percentage increase of injector size. In this case my injectors are roughly 30%ish larger. So reducing the tip in values by 30% seems to have given me very acceptable throttle response. Anybody can feel to let me know if I'm wrong, don't want to mis-inform anybody, but I'm pretty happy with the results... maybe just lucky, not sure. I'm happy that it turned out to be this easy,l I was expecting much more of a headache going with the these unfamiliar 625cc injectors.

Last edited by jhargis; 11-01-2007 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I was looking at my logs and noticing I'm pulling timing on rapid movement of the accelerator. If I roll into the accelerator, it works great. If I nail it, I see signs of knock. If it goes from say 20 to 100% in under a second, I see knock. It I do it in 2 seconds, there's none.
heh... Wierd. I know from my carb-jetting days, if throttle response is good, but you experience quick part throttle knock, a trick to reduce it would be to adjust the accelerator pump to be richer. So in this case, you may want to add some tip-in enrichment on the right side of the tip in map. You may not even notice that you're not putting quite enough fuel in the 20%+ columns... seems to be the lower columns that really affect initial throtte response/bogging issues.


I haven't logged any negative knock correction at all regardless of throttle actuation, load, rpm, etc. And I've tried to think up as many different conditions as I can to test it against. Nothing. IAM is 12 in the map but it climbed up to 16 after a day of driving. I used to get some occasional KC pushing the stock turbo on ev8siv3's stage one map w/ stock timing, like -2 or -3 once in a while this summer when it was hot out. But then again, I'm staying pretty conservative on the fuel/timing/boost with this setup... I'd rather have the money it would cost to replace my engine in the bank instead of an extra 15hp right before it blows up!

Last edited by jhargis; 11-01-2007 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:19 PM   #21
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I agree that it sounds like tip in lean out.

It's not clear what the numbers represent. I assume it's "change in angle per unit time" so, one table entry being 40 means "40% change in X ms". What do the enrichment numbers represent though? I could probably experiment with the right 2 entry's because I notice the issue with rapid throttle movement.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:49 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I agree that it sounds like tip in lean out.

It's not clear what the numbers represent. I assume it's "change in angle per unit time" so, one table entry being 40 means "40% change in X ms". What do the enrichment numbers represent though? I could probably experiment with the right 2 entry's because I notice the issue with rapid throttle movement.
I haven't a clue what they are... my guess is they are some measure of how much fuel to add... So the programming is something like IF the throttle changes by X percentage, then add y amount of fuel. Seems like it wouldn't be a fixed unit of measure like CC's though, because that wouldn't have to change with a different injector size, it would know to calculate based on the injector scaler, how to meter out 14 CCs for example. The values are proportional to how much fuel you want added though as increasing the value gives you more fuel, and decreasing it yield less fuel. The guess and check method is something of a pain in the neck, but in this case, it seems to be the best way to do it.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:32 PM   #23
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Thanks I think I found the map on osecuroms for the 01-02 sti. I believe it runs pink injectors and I wanted to look at the scalar, latency, and tip in to see how it compared to mine. Looks like the latency is the same as mine, scalar is a bit higher and it has a leaner tip in. I might copy the tip in values over to my map and see if it gets rid of some of the dip as well as my lt/st fuel correction
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Old 11-05-2007, 10:29 PM   #24
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Just to clarify, did you get the STFT and LTFT(learning/correction) within +/- 5% at idle/closed loop/WOT conditions? You really need a wideband to see where you are at under load.

Go with the percentage decrease across the board...30% or so should do it. Have you logged Tip In Enrichment while driving in different conditions? This can help show what values you are getting. I think you will be surprised how often...or infrequently... Tip In is being used.

As far as the person with the 850's goes, what other mods do you have? Big injectors can be prone to a rich spike. If you have a FMIC, that can be highly exaggerated from the added piping.(that is over simplified, but you know what I mean)

I would hesitate to use the MAF tables as a band-aid for poorly tuned injectors. This will cause more problems than solutions.

You can PM me, and I would be happy to help you get the injectors tuned.
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Old 11-06-2007, 01:07 AM   #25
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Learning stays pretty solid, never goes above .78 and the correction still jumps around a little... seems to jump around in the positive 0-3.8ish range at idle gets w/ an occasional spike to around 5, though it does get up into the positive teens (like 13-14) under throttle and down to the negative teens when getting off the throttle. This is just a quick look based on watching the values in realtime and max/min values on ecuexplorer. So I think there is a still a little tweaking to do. I've found tip in to be very agreeable when I used the JDM '03 STi tip in values - 5%. I'm really pretty happy with throttle response, no noticable bogging, feels pretty much like it did on the stock injectors. I reverted back to rescaling the stock timing table and stock timing correction values to the load range in the osecuroms vf series ots map that I'm using, and even though I am running less timing throughout the power band... wow the car runs soooooooo much better than with the osecuroms timing, and I haven't been able to get any -KC at all under any conditions. I figured the factory timing values woud be fairly safe. With the current tune the turbo is MUCH more responsive on the low end.

Any advice on getting that fuel correction to stay a bit more solid? I am at the point where I'm getting really very happy with how it's running, but it would be nice to get that fuel correction to stay within +/- 5.
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