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Old 01-23-2004, 05:08 PM   #51
MustGoFast
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what?... the relation of the hose to the steel line is the same as they shortened it by the same amount they lengthen the fuel line.. this means if its the rubber hose (shortening) in the cold having more of it would actually make the problem worse as it is effected by thermal expansion/contraction...

More likely knowing the properties of steel vs rubber.. the steel probably contracts to much more than the rubber at those low temperatrues thus creating a weak seal and allowing fuel out around.

Please understand the physics behinds something before you make statements.
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:12 PM   #52
TimStevens
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Quote:
Originally posted by MustGoFast
Please understand the physics behinds something before you make statements.
This thread doesn't need to go off topic, but indulge me in asking if you understand the physics so well why did you ask in the first place?
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Old 01-24-2004, 09:28 AM   #53
andygold
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Everyone with this issue, should contact the NHTSA, by phone or website, and lodge a complaint.

I received a callback from NHTSA and spoke with a gentleman from there. He has been in contact with Subaru Corporate. He was unaware that the area in the engine compartment (driver's side, below throttle body, 2 separate leaky hoses) is an additional area where the fuel leaks are located. He thought that the only problem was in the area that Subaru has the Service Bulletin directed towards. His assumption was that if Subaru were to perform the bulletin repair, the problem is solved. If you are called(or call) by the NHTSA, or if you file a complaint, make sure that you tell them that the Bulletined area, is NOT the only location that there is fuel leakage. We need to set the record straight!

Also, I was asked not to use the NHTSA gentleman's name in any postings, as this will necessitate his personally answering any phone calls/ emails aimed directly to him. This board gets out to thousands of members, and if he has to answer every correspondance, he will be unable to do his job(of getting our cars fixed----hopefully for free). There are other reps at NHTSA that are also handling this problem. So, singling any one out by using his/her name on these message boards, is not in our best interests. Sorry to rant! Just trying to help the cause.
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Old 02-05-2004, 11:27 AM   #54
MustGoFast
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Quote:
but indulge me in asking if you understand the physics so well why did you ask in the first place
Because the physics behind the cause doens't make it obvious as to why there suggested fix solves the problem.
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Old 11-16-2004, 03:50 PM   #55
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hey i couldnt see the pictures, could someone help me out??
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:40 PM   #56
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I can't see the pictures either, could someone re-post them? If you don't have the webspace I'll post it if you mail them to me.
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:57 PM   #57
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I think it's doubtful that you're gonna see those original pics again. But, having had the raw fuel smell myself in my '02 wagon, I saved a copy of the TSB for reference.

Enjoy!

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Old 11-17-2004, 09:16 AM   #58
stevo2234
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Hey thanks for the diagram, ill have my dealer fix that, cause i have no clue what the hell im doin
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:11 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo2234
Hey thanks for the diagram, ill have my dealer fix that, ...
That was a defect present only in the 2002 WRX.
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Old 01-17-2005, 03:33 PM   #60
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Please report the fuel smell to NHTSA. I filed a formal complaint and also wrote a letter to SOA, JMergen@subaru.com
"

Dear Mr. Mergen,

My family and I are avid Subaru enthusiasts. I am on my third Subaru since 1992. My current line up includes a 2001 Legacy Wagon and a 2002 WRX. The WRX is becoming increasingly difficult to drive in cold weather. The smell of fuel has recently become intolerable during ambient temperatures of about 30F or below. I am forced to use RECIRCULATE on the ventilation system. I have tracked the leak down to a two-inch rubber hose section under the intake manifold on the passenger’s side. It appears that the clamps are loose and cannot be tightened without removal of the manifold. I have seen that a Technical Service Bulletin has been issued on this matter. I called my dealer to have this safety and health issue repaired. To my dismay, I discovered that it is NOT covered under a recall or warranty. My car currently has 58,550 miles on it and has been impeccably maintained. The dealer has verba lly quoted $400-$500 for the repair. Upon searching the Internet and the NHTSA, I see that fuel vapor odor in the cabin in certain 2002 WRX's is a well-documented defect. I hope for my sake, Subaru's sake, and the sake of others with this problem, that Subaru of America, Inc. will show itself as a standup organization that will make good to it's loyal customers. As an 11 year Mechanical Engineer in the design and manufacturing industry, and an automobile enthusiast, I can explain that this leak is due to three conditions. 1) Improperly torqued hoseclamps during factory assembly, 2) Fuel line material shrinkage/stiffening due to cold temperatures, leading to further loosening of clamps, and 3) Misalignment of fuel lines. Subaru should repair this fuel leak at their cost; avoiding health and safety issues, and loss of future customers. This is NOT a condition caused by the operator of the vehicle by any means and should NOT be placed on the operators shoulders. Over time this leak will become more severe and may possibly ignite under certain conditions or cause dizzyness in the more severe cases.

DOCUMENTED CASES:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/arc...p/t-128232.html

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/arc...p/t-131755.html

NHTSA Action Number : PE04002



Thanks for your time,

David Cerutti, BSME"



FILE COMPLAINTS HERE:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm
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Old 01-18-2005, 12:53 AM   #61
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My friend has had this repair done under recall at Grand Prix Jeep and Subaru and he's had to come back about 4 times now because not only did they not fix the smell problem, now he has a whisle sound every time he goes into slight boost coming from the drivers side of the engine. The mechanic only changed one gasket and also broke a few t-fittings on the vacuum lines and my friend ended up getting charged to fix those "aftermarket" because on his subsequent visit they said it was those that make the sound. Of course that was B.S. and long story short, he still has the smell, he still has the sound and he's out or a couple of grand due to missed work and repair bills, not to mention the stress he's had to put up with. If you can turn a wrench, do yourself a favor and get the manifold gaskets, a piece of hose and some fuel injection clamps and do it yourself. You will save yourself a lot of grief.
Also do not buy or get service from Grand Prix in Long Island, NY!

Alex...
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:12 AM   #62
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Well I noticed the fuel smell really badly today. During the short ride from work to home. After I shut it off at the house I noticed white smoke from out of the hood. I popped the hood and it only smoked for a bit, but there was definetly fuel down there. I am going to try and tighten up the lines. It sucks cuz its like 1 degree with the wind chill. I notified the NHTSB.
Hopefully I can fix it.


Ryan
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:05 AM   #63
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Thank God for the search feature. Smelled gas yesterday, found this thread and was able to tighten the 4 clamps (not fun). Hope it fixed it.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:50 AM   #64
garface
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How can you find out if a non US market engine is affected by this? Anyone know? Is it only US models? I would think that any engine built in that time period would have the same problem since that part shouldn't change between different markets.
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Old 01-18-2005, 11:18 PM   #65
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I have an 03 built in 7/02 with these same symptoms.
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:12 PM   #66
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Well, I don't think I got to all of the clamps in the TSB, but I tightened a hell of a lot of them. There were two pink screws on the passenger side. I got to one in the "Y" of the manifold (one of the 4 above in the TSB) two on the driver's side near the A/C unit, and then all of them around the fuel filter for the fun of it. We'll see...
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:54 PM   #67
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Update - didn't work. Will try to get to more clamps later. SOA can rott.
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Old 01-25-2005, 12:28 AM   #68
billzebub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Yellow 2K3 WRX
I have an 03 built in 7/02 with these same symptoms.
Ditto..except mine wasan 03 built in 08/02.
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Old 09-26-2005, 12:25 PM   #69
super-ru
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I have a 2004 STi, and I started smelling gas this morning, I already suspected this clamp just from my visual inspection, I'm going to tighten it up right now.
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:46 AM   #70
Snowphun
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Yep, my 02 had the gas issue (badly) last winter, as expected it was not an issue all summer. A couple of 40-50F mornings and I get a good whiff of fuel if I don't set the HVAC to recirculate. I wish this weren't such a pain to fix as my local dealer(s) had no interest in fixing without me paying. I may have to suck it up and do it myself in a few weeks.

Paul
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:52 AM   #71
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Does Perrin fuel rails solve the fuel smell? I had is last winter but I just had perrin fuel rails installed. Will this solve the problem for this coming winter?
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Old 11-21-2005, 06:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimStevens
Maybe the rubber hose shrinks in the cold and comes lose?
Maybe I have entered this argument a year late, but polymers tend to get larger as they get colder, unlike metals which shrink as they grow cold. So the metal is getting cold and shrinking, and the hose's contact patch with the tube is restrained by the clamp, ideally, leaving a potential difference in hose ID and tube OD. It seems that a clamp tightening operation is all that is in order.

I have this problem too. My ex-Californian car probably likes the winter in eastern Washington as much as any other former Californian.

Cheers
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Old 11-26-2005, 12:36 AM   #73
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I'm wondering if the modified fitting lengthens the rubber hose to solve a secondary problem with strain relief?

Quote:
Originally Posted by specialev
Maybe I have entered this argument a year late, but polymers tend to get larger as they get colder, unlike metals which shrink as they grow cold. So the metal is getting cold and shrinking, and the hose's contact patch with the tube is restrained by the clamp, ideally, leaving a potential difference in hose ID and tube OD. It seems that a clamp tightening operation is all that is in order.

I have this problem too. My ex-Californian car probably likes the winter in eastern Washington as much as any other former Californian.

Cheers
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Old 11-26-2005, 01:14 AM   #74
specialev
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Making the pipe a little shorter and farther away from the other with a little more hose in between them is designed to give the car some built in strain relief. The system was designed without attention to dimensional instability and the supercesion parts make up for the design flaw.

It seems like that is the primary problem as well as the secondary problem. They are at least under the same bullet.
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Old 11-26-2005, 03:51 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specialev
Making the pipe a little shorter and farther away from the other with a little more hose in between them is designed to give the car some built in strain relief. The system was designed without attention to dimensional instability and the supercesion parts make up for the design flaw.

It seems like that is the primary problem as well as the secondary problem. They are at least under the same bullet.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing that is why people report that tightening the clamps do not solve the problem. [NHTSA reports that too.] My problem is that my leak does not stop once the car is warmed up. I went 70 miles tonight before I discovered it, and had to turn around and go 70 back home, and it leaked the entire time. I think there should be a recall on this. Nobody should have to pay to fix this. I only hope my "Classic" extended warranty will cover it.
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