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Old 11-13-2007, 03:51 PM   #26
9vapors
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I think the best option really is to monitor them both separately like Homemade said...
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:12 PM   #27
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Now couldnt you use the logic from the Aquamist fail safe, its not that u have to kill the motor, but just boost, or down to the boost level down to what the second pump will handle. Or quad pumps with a pump switch over, nascar style.
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:25 PM   #28
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Yup!
One could probably rig up the Aquamist failsafes
all you need is the right sensors
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #29
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^^True, didn't think of that.

I want that Aeromotive pump controller, that is if I decide to go with Aeromotive parts.
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:01 PM   #30
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well, someone's thinking now...actually the two systems that I'd been working on (fuel and alky) use similar hardware for the failsafes...

as for the 044's being better than 255's:
aren't 044's rated at a lower fuel flow than 255 and aren't the 044's marginally better at maintaining pressure than the 255hp's?

if that's the case, three 255's cost less than two 044's and will outperform them...
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:27 PM   #31
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I had heared that the walbro were even more unreliable than the bosch pumps ? thats why I went with the bosch of course the havent ended up that way
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Old 11-13-2007, 05:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintluciascooby View Post
I had heared that the walbro were even more unreliable than the bosch pumps ? thats why I went with the bosch of course the havent ended up that way
yeah, I was going to say that's oxymoronic been running a 255 for 5 years without an issue...
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Old 11-13-2007, 06:04 PM   #33
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On the real, I think more of us end up blowing a motor due to some other part failing then the Fuel Pumps, spun bearings, bad assembly, seems a higher number of engines die from that. Dual 255's with a swirl tank might work?
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
well, someone's thinking now...actually the two systems that I'd been working on (fuel and alky) use similar hardware for the failsafes...
Depending on how your waste gate solenoid lines are set up, this could be as simple as a single relay to open the solenoid and drop to waste gate spring pressure. Several sensors could share one relay, either in parallel for normally open sensors, or series if the sensors are normally closed. With a double-pole relay, you could add an "oh sh**" LED for the cabin.

As far as sensing pump failure, you just want to T the sensor before the FPR, where the line pressure should be high regardless of boost (if not, oh sh**).

Of course you'll have multiple systems to check to see why the LED came on, but with just fuel and WI sensors the checklist is manageable (also, the WI system may have a diagnostic light built in, again depending on which one you run). Other systems could share the interrupt relay too.

Of course if you need to cut boost and pull timing, it may not be that simple

BTW, rather than a PWM controller to extend pump life at low consumption, why not a high pressure regulator bypassing to another return line, preferably near the pumps/tank? That's closer to an internally bypassed pump, which would be an integrated solution. Personally, I tend to trust mechanical things (e.g. a high-quality regulator) vs. discrete electronic modules. An independent PWM seems like one more bit of complexity that could fail at an inopportune moment.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:25 PM   #35
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Sorry to bump an old thread, but I didn't see the need to start a new one over a similar subject.

I'm in the final planning stages of my build and am starting to buy parts for the fuel system. Will my in-tank 255lph Walbro be enough pump to keep my surge tank flowing with enough fuel? I'll be running an Aeromotive a1000 pump and 1600cc injectors. I realize that the fuel return will be coming back in, but at WOT I'd hate to not have enough because of a stupid $75 pump.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:57 PM   #36
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that is the inherent problem with a surge tank fed lower flow rate than the outgoing...the tank can run dry if you are at WOT for a prolonged period...its a simple flow rate problem as to how much time you will have.
take: (fuel flow rate from a1000) - (fuel flowrate returned to surge tank + fuel fed by 255 from gas tank) and see your rate of fuel "loss" (delta) then work out the time it takes to run the surge tank dry. I would honestly set "dry" as 20% of the tanks volume for reasons of slosh.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:01 PM   #37
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I'd think the Walbros would be able to keep up with the flow since they're not supplying all the flow at such a high pressure. That's the problem with them once you start flowing a lot of fuel, they flow but pressure at the injector starts to drop off. Since you have a booster pump the pressure requirements from the Walbro are greatly reduced so you can get more volume out of them.

Note: just a theory
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:42 PM   #38
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I just bought a weldon no more two pump worries
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:00 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I'd think the Walbros would be able to keep up with the flow since they're not supplying all the flow at such a high pressure. That's the problem with them once you start flowing a lot of fuel, they flow but pressure at the injector starts to drop off. Since you have a booster pump the pressure requirements from the Walbro are greatly reduced so you can get more volume out of them.

Note: just a theory
well, working it out will tell you...whatever the walbro's pressure is going from gas tank to surge tank is the flowrate in and the graph is readily available.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:03 AM   #40
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This Thread Kicks A$$, I`ll be doing a Set-up like the ones seen above!

Great pics
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:21 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineerx View Post
^^^

Another of my diagrams:
*dual lines from FPR to surge tank: I used stock return line
*dual lines from surge tank to OEM tank: I used single -06 line
*I added an Aeromotive 10 micron after-pump filter, keep your injectors clean!
*don't quote me on pricing... those are ballpark, I'm not responsible if you end up spending all your yearly allowance or if your car explodes (my disclaimer)



large
http://subaru-wrx-sti.com/web/MODS/f...emdiagram2.jpg


glad to help!
that's what the forums are for.... to ask dumbass questions and get intelligent answers

Weeeeeeeeee vsssssssssss weeeeeeee sssssssssssss
That's the noise most big pumps make (except the Weldons but those are mucho$$$) - you get used to it, usually it gets lost amidst the exhaust, suspension, turbo, radio noises.....

I compared my in-cabin fuel pump noise levels of one of my buddies IN-Tank Bosch 044.... I'm pretty happy about mounting the pump outside, under the car.
Serves 2 purposes:
1. "Safer" - not 100% - But .... the HIGH-pressure line starts outside the car, you still have the tank-to-surge tank line. But minimizing high pressure lines inside passenger compartment is always a good thing.
2. Quieter inside car

Take your time deciding, and make a list of parts you will need, draw a diagram listing parts, it will save you time & money in the long run
Good luck !
I noticed that you mentioned mounting the pump outside of the car to keep the high pressure side of the fuel system away from occupants. Call me stupid, but isn't that the high pressure feed to the rails running along the inside of your drivers' side Door sill? the quote is in the post above, however the picture in question is in an earlier post.

Also, the surge tank is cool as far as making sure you have a good fuel sump. However, is there a problem you have noticed with fuel heating? If you take the bypass fuel and dump it right back into the surge tank, and proceed to re pump; it will pick up heat, it doesn't mix and exchange heat with the mass amounts of fuel in the tank (assuming, no overflow is taking place)
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:38 AM   #42
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Just call Phil@elementtuning he's got a whole set-up as well, plus he's local

240-246-0302
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:15 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinSTi05 View Post
I noticed that you mentioned mounting the pump outside of the car to keep the high pressure side of the fuel system away from occupants. Call me stupid, but isn't that the high pressure feed to the rails running along the inside of your drivers' side Door sill? the quote is in the post above, however the picture in question is in an earlier post.
From what I understand, the only part of the high-pressure line that is in the car is just the line itself. The pump and all the fittings is outside the car, which is where it would probably let go. Bursting braided stainless line would be very difficult, whereas the fittings could let go much easier.

I plan on running mine under the car, though.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:37 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintluciascooby View Post
I just bought a weldon no more two pump worries
nice. They are expensive but quite reliable is the reputation. What model did you purchase?
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:48 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSM-04-STi View Post
Just call Phil@elementtuning he's got a whole set-up as well, plus he's local

240-246-0302
Was trying to find pics, anyone have any? it's become time for me to start putting the fuel system together...
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Old 03-08-2008, 04:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas05sti View Post
From what I understand, the only part of the high-pressure line that is in the car is just the line itself. The pump and all the fittings is outside the car, which is where it would probably let go. Bursting braided stainless line would be very difficult, whereas the fittings could let go much easier.

I plan on running mine under the car, though.
Exactly. Most plumbing fails at the fittings. It's still not 100% "safe" but it was the "safer" solution I could come up with the resources I had.

In addition, the frigging noise these pumps make is quite alot BBBBBBHHHHH...BBHHHHHHH.... BHHHHHH !! by placing it under the car the noise doesn't transmit as much as having the pump inside the trunk or even inside the tank. One of my buddies has his 044 in-tank and it's noisier than where I mounted mine

Also I think I'm going to leave the rear seat cushions on at all times.... just in case I get arse-ended hard, don't want all that California 91 piss gass to end up inside the cabin

another routing diagram pic I made, to help those who have questions about surge tank setups
there might be better setups so always good to research all available options.



Alright, so I get asked very frequently about what fittings to use, where to get them, etc. Here's the answer - Hope that helps:
Yeah, there's no easy way to go from the 8mm (5/16") OEM pump hanger lines to AN hoses. You have to use multiple fittings to get to a 5/16" barb fitting.
The nicest way would be using bulkhead fittings and eliminate the hanger hard lines but as you said it's more costly and more work.
like this http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...5&postcount=80

I ended up using the following
From OEM in-tank pump:
5/16" fuel rubber hose - 5/16" barb x 3/8" NPT - 3/8" NPT female coupler - 3/8" NPT male x -6AN - -6AN hose to surge tank

same fittings for the return line, make a list of all the stuff you need so you place 1 order from Summit and only pay the handling fee of $10 once.

*keep in mind the lightweight braided hose lets the fumes escape out thru the rubber hose and stink up the inside of your car with gas fumes, use steel braided good quality hose like Earl's or Aeroquip. I ended up using teflon lined hose http://www.summitracing.com/search/B.../?autoview=SKU

parts
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AE...5/?image=large or http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-9-38021/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-991003ERL/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-220648/

Last edited by engineerx; 10-01-2009 at 04:49 PM. Reason: A lot of questions from fellow members :)
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:16 AM   #47
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I wish someone in the US would sell surge tanks... I cant seem to find anything other than in Australia etc... Since this was bumped, I have bought some Deatchworks 1100cc injectors, Aeromotive fuel rails, fittings, fuel log etc... Coming along, but I have been steered away from the Aeromotive A-1000 which I planned to run and told to go with some Bosch 044s by a local shop. They said the A-1000 can't handle the fueling needs of a turbo car very well. They fall off somewhere around 50psi...


Nm, just bought a surge tank from SMP... Thanks guys! How many feet of braided fuel line do I need?

Last edited by 9vapors; 03-31-2008 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:05 PM   #48
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Just run a dry sump setup, itll handle your needs. But pricy though.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry curl View Post
Just run a dry sump setup, itll handle your needs. But pricy though.

Please explain this dry sump fuel system you speak of.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:34 AM   #50
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Ran into a small snag yesterday. I was running all the lines yesterday and realized that the 06 comes with quick dissconnect lines. I have already purchased and cut all the braided hose, but need the fitting I have listed in the picture so I can use the factory return line, instead of having to rerun a new line from fpr to the surge tank. My original plan was to use the same fittings that engineerx used on his setup but from what i found out yesterday thats not gonna happen. Anyone know where i can pick up the fittings that are shown in the picture below?


Last edited by ec2k1gt; 04-16-2008 at 10:41 AM.
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