Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday August 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning > Commercial ECU Reflashes

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2007, 11:58 AM   #1
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default 07 STi w/ tuned Enginuity... fuel learning / running rich? please check my logs...

Hey,
I have an 07 STi and got tuned a few weeks ago by [name removed just to be safe i guess] who is a local professional tuner that i trust.
This thread is not at all to second guess his work, but rather to get some other opinions on how things are. I emailed him the logs as well but he hasnt had a chance to get back to met yet.
I am still trying to learn all the ins and outs of Enginuity and tuning in general but here are the things I have noticed on my logs...

1) fuel learning is at about 14% just cruising at a contstant rate and its also adding fuel on full throttle pulls... more at lower RPM and less higher, but why is this? the car was not running rich the day it was tuned but now it sure seems to be... AFRs are mid 10s at best, but mostly low 10s and even high 9s here and there.
my stock AFR and wideband AFR log very closely to one another so I don't think my gauge is bad.

2) when I go full throttle and manifold pressure goes positive, I get a spike of very rich fuel... 9.x even, then it settles. CL/OL is set to switch over above 4k like factory BUT its set to switch over any time above 36% throttle which I was told was done for driveability reasons. it seems that this happens any time it is switching over, and I tested this at 2k, 3k, and 3.7k rpm with the same results... not sure why though. anyone have experience with this?

3) I get a bit of FLKC at low rpm and load around 1.0 when i get on the throttle, is this learned possibly from before or during the tune that should go away as long as there is no FKC?

I'm sure I've got more questions but I cant think of any and I'm a bit pressed for time here so this should be a good start. Thanks for any input... I'm looking to learn as much as I can to understand the car and how its running better.

Bryan

labels on the logs dont line up but hopefully this is clear enough for anyone looking...

4th gear pull...
Code:
Time	Air/Fuel Correction #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #1 (%)	Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)	Engine Speed (rpm)	Feedback Knock Correction* (degrees)	Fine Learning Knock Correction* (degrees)	Ignition Timing (degrees)	Ignition Timing Advance* (degrees)	Injector Duty Cycle (%)	Learned Ignition Timing (degrees)	Manifold Relative Pressure (psi)	Mass Air Flow (g/s)	Throttle Plate Opening Angle (Direct)* (%)	LC-1 (AFR)
0	-3.91	14.84	0.38	2256	0	0	47.5	0	5.26	0	-9.29	14.05	8.71	14.7
313	-5.47	14.84	0.36	2254	0	0	47.5	0	5.29	0	-9.14	13.72	8.71	14.35
641	-7.03	14.84	0.38	2278	0	0	48	0	5.32	0	-9.14	14.79	9.44	14.21
953	-3.91	14.84	0.48	2300	0	0	48.5	0	6.34	0	-8.13	18.56	13.07	14.45
1281	-1.56	14.84	1.05	2336	0	0	37	0.8	12.47	0	-3.48	37.69	23.97	14.71
1594	0	13.28	1.6	2382	0	0	17	4.25	19.72	4	0.15	63.56	43.3	13.82
1922	0	11.72	1.78	2457	0	0	14	4.13	27.87	4	2.47	74.38	77.16	9.6
2234	0	10.16	2.14	2540	0	0	14	3.88	32.65	4	5.22	90.66	100.12	9.29
2547	0	9.38	2.62	2664	0	0	13.5	3.46	41.17	3.5	8.13	111.06	99.97	9.61
2875	0	7.81	3.33	2812	0	0	12	4.92	55.83	5	12.77	152.31	100.12	9.19
3188	0	7.03	3.54	2929	0	0	11	4.92	69.46	5	18.43	181.34	100.12	9.22
3516	0	6.25	3.2	3160	0	0	12	4.92	60.89	5	18.43	169.25	100.12	10.07
3828	0	5.47	3.15	3336	0	0	12.5	4.92	60.95	5	17.56	169.51	99.97	10.91
4156	0	5.47	3.33	3551	0	0	12.5	4.92	67.4	5	17.7	188.75	100.12	10.51
4469	0	4.69	3.31	3705	0	0	13	4.92	70.64	5	17.85	204.89	100.12	10.36
4797	0	3.91	3.44	3898	0	0	13	4.92	77.42	5	18.14	225.9	99.97	10.57
5109	0	3.91	3.57	4093	0	0	13	4.92	82.41	5	18.43	241.57	99.97	10.33
5438	0	1.56	3.42	4247	0	0	14	4.92	83.69	5	18.14	244.39	100.12	10.44
5750	0	1.56	3.52	4466	0	0	15	4.92	88.62	5	17.99	257.62	100.12	10.51
6078	0	1.56	3.47	4632	0	0	16	4.92	92.85	5	17.99	271.11	100.12	10.38
6391	0	1.56	3.57	4810	0	0	17	4.92	96.38	5	18.14	286.65	99.97	10.25
6719	0	1.56	3.47	4990	0	0	18	4.92	100.83	5	18.14	288.6	99.97	9.89
7031	0	1.56	3.42	5145	0	0	19.5	4.92	102.58	5	17.85	291.03	100.12	10.05
7359	0	1.56	3.4	5282	0	0	20	4.92	104.37	5	17.41	296.85	99.97	10.04
7672	0	1.56	3.25	5429	0	0	21	4.92	103.78	5	16.98	299.27	99.97	10.29
8000	0	1.56	3.19	5576	0	0	22	4.92	101.77	5	16.4	297.82	100.12	10.38
8313	0	1.56	3.17	5756	0	0	22.5	4.92	102.85	5	15.82	305.06	99.97	10.42
8641	0	1.56	1.31	5846	0	0	-9.5	3.53	82.65	5	-0.29	191.06	11.91	9.63
8953	-3.12	0.78	0.09	5139	0	0	9	0	5.42	0	-11.03	7.92	9.29	12.17
9266	0	1.56	0.18	4929	0	0	9	0	6.33	0	-11.61	15.32	9.58	13.49
9594	0	3.91	0.2	4878	0	0	9	0	7.25	0	-11.75	16.22	9.73	15.7
9922	0	5.47	0.17	4764	0	0	24	0	7.05	0	-11.9	12.79	9.73	16.07
10234	0	7.03	0.18	4328	0	0	24	0	6.44	0	-11.75	13.86	8.71	15.68
10563	0	7.81	0.2	3854	0	0	24	0	5.63	0	-11.61	12.57	8.13	14.74
10875	0	9.38	0.17	3700	0	0	24	0	2.38	0	-11.46	10.35	7.55	14.63
throttle blip FLKC
Code:
Time	Air/Fuel Correction #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #1 (%)	Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)	Engine Speed (rpm)	Feedback Knock Correction* (degrees)	Fine Learning Knock Correction* (degrees)	Ignition Timing (degrees)	Ignition Timing Advance* (degrees)	Injector Duty Cycle (%)	Learned Ignition Timing (degrees)	Manifold Relative Pressure (psi)	Mass Air Flow (g/s)	Throttle Plate Opening Angle (Direct)* (%)	LC-1 (AFR)
2890	-4.69	3.91	0.17	2497	0	0	28	0	3.7	0	-11.17	7.59	5.46	13.35
3203	0	3.12	0.23	2135	0	0	17	0	3.18	0	-11.17	8.44	5.03	13.24
3531	0	3.12	0.38	1863	0	0	37.5	0	3.49	0	-10.16	9.06	7.5	14.39
3843	-3.12	4.69	0.58	1682	0	0	39	0	4.94	0	-7.98	13.13	10.69	16.01
4171	-7.03	4.69	0.89	1718	0	0	24.5	0	7.2	0	-2.76	26.15	17.82	14.11
4484	-2.34	4.69	1.05	1794	0	-0.7	21.5	0.43	8.57	-0.5	-1.6	27.74	20.87	15.08
4812	2.34	4.69	1.1	1834	0	-0.7	20	1.27	10.05	0.5	-1.16	30.19	22.76	14.88
5125	-2.34	4.69	1.07	1880	0	-0.7	15.5	2.87	9.99	2	-1.31	34.61	20.29	13.85
5453	-7.81	4.69	1.08	1961	0	-0.7	18.5	2.29	10	1.5	-1.16	34.7	21.16	13.82
5765	2.34	4.69	1.08	1996	0	-0.7	17	2.83	11.65	2	-1.02	36.52	21.45	15.44
6093	0.78	4.69	1.07	2071	0	-0.7	17.5	2.89	11.57	2	-1.16	36.69	21.01	13.92
6406	-3.91	4.69	1.05	2120	0	-0.35	18.5	2.97	11.34	2.5	-1.31	37.83	21.16	14.21
6718	1.56	3.91	1.18	2217	0	-0.35	16	3.15	12.81	3	-1.31	41.72	21.59	14.95
7046	-1.56	3.12	1.12	2272	0	-0.35	14.5	4.07	13.16	3.5	-1.31	43.61	21.01	14.04
7375	-10.16	3.12	1.08	2319	0	0	17	3.17	11.9	3	-1.74	42.84	20.14	13.83
7687	-0.78	4.69	1.01	2395	0	0	22.5	3.31	12.21	3.5	-2.32	37.64	19.41	15.29
8000	-2.34	4.69	0.88	2439	0	0	28.5	1.82	10.94	2	-2.76	36.86	18.54	13.92
8328	1.56	4.69	0.92	2514	0	0	29	1.26	11.76	1.5	-2.76	38.2	18.83	15.14
8640	0	4.69	0.98	2562	0	0	30	0.65	12.01	0.5	-2.9	36.88	19.27	13.86
another light blip FLKC
Code:
Time	Air/Fuel Correction #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #1 (%)	Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)	Engine Speed (rpm)	Feedback Knock Correction* (degrees)	Fine Learning Knock Correction* (degrees)	Ignition Timing (degrees)	Ignition Timing Advance* (degrees)	Injector Duty Cycle (%)	Learned Ignition Timing (degrees)	Manifold Relative Pressure (psi)	Mass Air Flow (g/s)	Throttle Plate Opening Angle (Direct)* (%)	LC-1 (AFR)
13437	0	3.91	0.21	2360	0	0	14	0	3.44	0	-11.32	8.19	5.46	14.21
13765	0.78	4.69	0.28	2178	0	0	43	0	4.19	0	-10.45	11.67	6.92	15.39
14078	-0.78	4.69	0.59	2184	0	0	49	0	6.02	0	-8.13	14.72	12.73	14.39
14406	-2.34	4.69	0.82	2172	0	0	44	0	9.29	0	-4.21	29.65	18.25	14.27
14734	5.47	4.69	1.01	2217	0	-1.4	36.5	0.92	11.83	-0.5	-2.47	37.89	21.59	15.41
15046	-4.69	4.69	0.95	2242	0	-1.4	37.5	0.71	10.54	-0.5	-2.61	34.96	19.56	13.19
15359	-6.25	4.69	1.01	2280	0	-1.4	34	1.12	10.73	-0.5	-2.61	36.7	19.7	14.38
15687	-2.34	4.69	0.86	2308	0	-1.4	31	1.33	10.84	0	-3.34	35	17.96	14.55
16015	-4.69	4.69	0.85	2327	0	-1.4	28.5	1.18	10.44	0	-3.63	34.28	17.38	14.32
16328	-3.12	4.69	0.81	2364	0	0	33	0	9.55	0	-3.48	31.2	17.09	14.69
16640	2.34	4.69	0.73	2368	0	0	35.5	0	9.61	0	-3.92	29.96	15.93	14.64
16968	1.56	4.69	0.69	2400	0	0	36	0	9.76	0	-4.21	31.93	15.64	14.51
17281	0.78	4.69	0.74	2419	0	0	38.5	0	9.3	0	-4.5	28.02	15.49	14.29
17609	3.91	4.69	0.65	2442	0	0	41	0	9.39	0	-4.64	28.05	15.35	14.49
cruising... note the fuel learning
Code:
Time	Air/Fuel Correction #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #1 (%)	Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)	Engine Speed (rpm)	Feedback Knock Correction* (degrees)	Fine Learning Knock Correction* (degrees)	Ignition Timing (degrees)	Ignition Timing Advance* (degrees)	Injector Duty Cycle (%)	Learned Ignition Timing (degrees)	Manifold Relative Pressure (psi)	Mass Air Flow (g/s)	Throttle Plate Opening Angle (Direct)* (%)	LC-1 (AFR)
0	1.56	14.84	0.44	2902	0	0	48.5	0	8.1	0	-7.4	21.46	13.44	14.24
312	0	14.84	0.46	2919	0	0	48.5	0	8.07	0	-7.25	20.87	13.73	14.49
640	1.56	14.84	0.44	2902	0	0	48.5	0	8.05	0	-7.11	22.43	14.02	14.64
953	1.56	14.84	0.46	2919	0	0	48.5	0	8.06	0	-7.11	21.79	13.73	14.57
1265	0.78	14.84	0.43	2908	0	0	48.5	0	8.1	0	-7.25	20.48	13.58	14.55
1593	4.69	14.84	0.44	2916	0	0	48.5	0	8.08	0	-7.4	21.21	13.58	14.89
1906	3.12	14.84	0.46	2914	0	0	48.5	0	8.04	0	-7.25	21.37	13.87	14.32
2234	0	14.84	0.49	2909	0	0	48.5	0	8.04	0	-7.11	22.69	14.02	14.26
2547	1.56	14.84	0.43	2909	0	0	48.5	0	8.65	0	-6.96	22.37	13.87	14.6
2875	0.78	14.84	0.47	2905	0	0	48.5	0	8	0	-7.11	21.54	14.17	14.45
3187	3.91	14.84	0.43	2888	0	0	48.5	0	8.64	0	-6.96	21.54	14.17	14.74
3515	3.91	14.84	0.46	2893	0	0	48.5	0	8.63	0	-6.96	20.87	13.87	14.63
3828	3.12	14.84	0.46	2894	0	0	48.5	0	8.66	0	-7.11	21.96	14.02	14.27
4156	3.12	14.84	0.44	2890	0	0	48.5	0	8.79	0	-6.96	20.96	14.02	14.33
4468	2.34	14.84	0.5	2873	0	0	48.5	0	8.59	0	-6.82	23.58	14.46	14.63
4797	2.34	14.84	0.51	2879	0	0	48.5	0	8.61	0	-6.38	23.58	14.89	14.64
5109	2.34	14.84	0.47	2880	0	0	48.5	0	8.56	0	-6.53	23.26	14.46	14.6
5437	3.12	14.84	0.49	2857	0	0	48.5	0	8.6	0	-6.67	23.26	14.31	14.55
5750	2.34	14.84	0.48	2856	0	0	48.5	0	8.58	0	-6.67	23.5	14.46	14.38
6078	0	14.84	0.47	2855	0	0	48.5	0	8.54	0	-6.53	22.29	14.6	14.41
6406	4.69	14.84	0.49	2863	0	0	48.5	0	8.52	0	-6.67	23.98	14.31	15.11
6734	1.56	14.84	0.48	2861	0	0	48.5	0	8.54	0	-6.67	21.54	14.31	14.04
7047	2.34	14.84	0.46	2856	0	0	48.5	0	8.53	0	-6.82	23.17	14.17	14.71
7375	3.12	14.84	0.5	2838	0	0	48.5	0	8.52	0	-6.53	24.05	14.75	14.52
7687	3.91	14.84	0.48	2842	0	0	48.5	0	9.08	0	-6.38	23.25	14.75	14.51
8015	1.56	14.84	0.49	2853	0	0	48.5	0	8.47	0	-6.38	23.82	14.89	14.38
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Wrinkleboi; 11-14-2007 at 02:40 AM.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2007, 12:49 AM   #2
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

aww such a detailed and organized post and no responses?
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2007, 10:29 AM   #3
gabedude
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 10108
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Lake Travis, Austin, TX
Vehicle:
07 STI
60Trim TQ monster

Default

1. Your tuner scaled the MAF wrong.

2. Tip in enrichment so it does not knock.

3. This is a common issue on tuned 07 STIs. It has to do with the timing tables switching from cruise to accel. It is very hard and time consuming to get absolutely correct. A hint for a good starting point is too look at the stock map's offsets. The timing tables only differ 3600 RPM and below. Cruise timing has less total timing in that range and accell has more (stock). I have seen some tuners make the timing tables the same which can cause this unless the lower end timing is scaled back across the board.
gabedude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 12:46 PM   #4
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

i have a question about what i'm seeing in the logs...

the AF Learning is adding fuel, and the AFR is rich... arent these things working against each other? I would think that if the AFR is richer than the target, the AF Learning would be negative to try to reach the target AFR.
I'm not entirely clear on how the process works, that would be the most obvious to me but I must be missing another factor, could someone explain? Or is there a 'dummies guide to fuel tuning with enginuity' that i can find somewhere?
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 01:27 PM   #5
JMS77
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 136833
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ Precision Tuning
Default

Ok. In the most simple explanation possible, when you see negative values in AF Correction/Learning, you are adding too much fuel and vice versa. The ECU is trying to compensate for this by removing fuel by a certain percentage or correction.

However, this is not the only thing to consider. You need to take into account the latency and scalar values as they relate to your injectors. See if you can find some info. on how injectors work/operate... dead time/latency/voltage/pulse width/low/high impedance/peak hold/saturated...etc. This should help as we look further into fuel tuning.

I think it is great that you are so eager to learn, and we will help, but be very careful with what you change. Small changes can have very big consequences. Gabedude has touched upon some other possible issues, but DO NOT mess with the MAF Scalar at this time.

A mod list is very important too...
JMS77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 01:36 PM   #6
gabedude
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 10108
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Lake Travis, Austin, TX
Vehicle:
07 STI
60Trim TQ monster

Default

Nice air you are pulling there. 300 G/S. My best on my Stage 1 is 285 near redline though.

It seems your tuner is taking the rich fuel (10.2-10.7:1), more timing approach as opposed to the leaner fuel (11-11.5:1) less timing approach. Looking at your IDCs, they are pretty high. 106% is really a danger zone. Keep an eye on your WBO2. It did not lean out in the log, but it will if it needs anymore fuel than it does currently.

The AFL1 (or LTFT) being positive just means that it is adding fuel. Your WB shows that when going WOT (it is pretty rich, even for that amount of timing). At idle, the WB is jumping around because it is operating in Closed Loop fueling. This is normal to see a lean spike, then a rich spike. Your tuner must have adjusted the Injector scaler or the MAF scaling incorrectly.

Gabe
gabedude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 01:38 PM   #7
JMS77
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 136833
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ Precision Tuning
Default

I agree with you on this one Gabe-

"The AFL1 (or LTFT) being positive just means that it is adding fuel. Your WB shows that when going WOT (it is pretty rich, even for that amount of timing). At idle, the WB is jumping around because it is operating in Closed Loop fueling. This is normal to see a lean spike, then a rich spike. Your tuner must have adjusted the Injector scaler or the MAF scaling incorrectly."


-John
JMS77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 01:57 PM   #8
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

i did quite a bit of tuning on my wrx engine with a utec so i spent a loooong time studying and learning what i was doing... i'm not a pro but i'm confident that i have the basics of tuning down, and i know to make small changes and note the differences to be safe.
i know what i want the car to do, i'm just not completely sure yet how to achieve that with enginuty and all of its different maps because the terminology and setup is so much different and more involved than something like a utec.
its like i know i want the nail to go into the wall, but i dont know how to get that done with this fancy new hammer that i've never seen before.

for example, not too long ago i just learned how the ecu adjusts fuel... first it references the af learning, then after it has processed that it decides on an appropriate af correction. its insanely basic, but to someone new, unless that was explained to them they wouldnt understand how the ecu determines how to hit target fuel.

this is whats catching me up with fueling... what factors play in and how do they integrate with each other? what should be adjusted and how?

ok my mods are a bit wacky currently, but i'm taking an unorthodox to a big turbo so i'm not done yet...

Power mods are as follows:
Stock VF43 (ceramic coated exhaust side)
Stock Injectors
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
APS 65mm CAI
APS Turbo Inlet Pipe
PnP Compressor Inlet and Outlet
APS DR525 FMIC
TGV Delete
Hondata Phenolic Spacers
Perrin Equal Length Headers (ceramic coated)
TurboXS Uppipe for EWG (ceramic coated)
TiAL 44mm EWG (1 bar spring)
Prodrive Boost Control Solenoid
HKS Downpipe (heatwrapped)
Perrin Dual Tube Catback
Enginuity/OpenECU Tune

the logs from the dyno tuning indicate high 10s and low 11s for AFR during WOT pulls... so either one of our widebands is off, or the ecu has adjusted a good amount since the initial tune.

target AFR in the map is 11.1 or so going to high to mid 10s at redline... soooo, why is the car missing that by so much? my injectors are stock and so is the scaling, and the maf was recalibrated.

i sent the logs to the tuner and he is making some adjustments, and also offered to have me come back down whenever is convenient. again i want to be clear that i'm not undermining him at all... i know the 07 is still a bit mysterious to most people so i'm just trying to learn what i can about it, and also use this as an excuse to understand enginuity and how it works by analyzing my own logs.

thanks for the help guys, very much appreciated.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 02:51 PM   #9
JMS77
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 136833
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ Precision Tuning
Default

Honestly, I would have the tuner look at the scalar again, it is off. It should really not need to be changed for the most part.

Ok. Since you have a FMIC, did your tuner adjust all of the maps that effect timing/fueling/boost based upon AIT? Essentially, your Air Inlet Temp Sensor is useless at this time. So those corrections need to be made. Can you post your MAF scalar table?

You can lean out the fuel tables at the load points in question... bump it up by .06 or .12....them data log and see how much it really effected your fuel. You know how to do it. Make sure your maps...ALL of them.... are rescaled X and Y axis appropriately.

Call me, you have the number, and I will go thru the ROM, and all of the tables with you, so you can get this dialed in correctly.


John
JMS77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 03:12 PM   #10
PerformanceAutoSolutions
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 853
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Deer Park, NY, USA
Vehicle:
2011 STI Sedan
Satin White Pearl

Default

--it is adding 14% over time.defintely a maf scaling issue.check the latiency on those inj..

dave
PerformanceAutoSolutions is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 03:24 PM   #11
Freon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88322
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Vehicle:
2009 BMW 135i

Default

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about AFR not matching exactly between your wideband and the fuel enrichment map. As long as the AFR is what the tuner intended they don't need to match perfectly. This alone won't necessarily cause AFR to be inconsistent. There are better metrics to look at.

As far as the long term fuel trim, that could be the MAF scale not being well calibrated for the aftermarket intake. Can you just post the long term A/B/C/D values? That's usually a better indication than trying to look at short log snippets. That is, it is a statistical and historical view. When I start on a car (especially with an aftermarket intake), I'll check these trims to see how bad the current MAF scale is to gauge how much work it will take just to fix that.

If the fuel trims were good when you got tuned (generally, you need to drive around a bit at varying flow, then check A/B/C/D), but now are off it could be a leak, or the intake just being crap across different weather.

I know there has been some discussion on the 07 MAF scaling, though with the APS that kinda throws out any sort of 07-specific problem with MAF scaling. It could be an 06 with that intake and have the same issue. It is, IMNSHO, typical with aftermarket intakes.
Freon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:51 PM   #12
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

can i get a walk through how i might want to go about getting started on adjusting things? its pulling about 3% fuel at idle, but adding about 14% at cruising, also adding a bit at WOT but i dont think the fueling has learned enough up there yet.

also the other major issue is that every time i blip the throttle i get knock... i guess this is tip in? or is it timing? its always very rich where its knocking, maybe even too rich.

i'm sent my tuner some more logs showing MAFv, TPS, Tip In, and AFR so he can see what things are looking like there but figured I'd also try to continue the conversation here since it has been educational so far.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 02:21 AM   #13
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

It looks to me that your MAF scale is wrong but more wrong at the bottom than the top.

Log constant throttle runs (avoiding sharp throttle movements) to measure the short-term and long term fuel trims at each maf voltage. Take the combined figure of the corrections at each point to get closer.

eg
if STFT is -5% and LTFT is -2% then the error at that point is -7%
if STFT is +5% and LTFT is -2% then the error at that point is +3%

If the error is + then increase the MAF gram/sec in the maf table or reduce if combined error is negative.

Keep the maf curve as smooth as you can and start at the low end of the MAF scale and work upwards doing a small range at a time then reflashing and logging again. (Viewing it graphically in ecuedit helps smooth the curve out)

It does not 'learn' at the top end - all the learning is done in closed loop so concentrate on the closed loop area and only amend the top end of the scale if the car is running lean/rich. It looks to me that it is running rich at the top and the maf scale reads too high up there (hence why the high engine load/ maf grms/sec figs.)

You will find this a very time consuming process to get it anywhere near close.
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 06:22 AM   #14
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

ok that makes complete sense to me and is what i thought i should be doing, but to have someone explain it and confirm this is right is definitely a help... thanks for taking the time to type it out.
now as i start to dial in the maf better, is leaving the fuel and timing maps as is going to be dangerous since it will throw all of the scaling off? and if so what should i do to make things safe all around?
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2007, 06:51 AM   #15
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

Bearing in mind that you are only looking to change the low end of the MAF scale (ie low revs, low load) there should be no danger but log anyway and double check everything.
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 04:07 PM   #16
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

to scale maf should i try to sustain a steady load area for a stretch of road, then try to do the next? just steady throttle or should i use the brake and throttle together to try to get a good log of different load sites?

i did one last night that was just throttle trying to keep it pretty steady and was abot to hold it between .8 - 1.0, then 1.0 to 1.2... i guess thats a start. i havent modified the map scale yet but i will give it a shot tonight.

as far as changing the maf scaling for the higher load sites, how do you do that? i know i'm not there yet but just interested to know and i think others would be too. does it require a lot of heavier throttle pulls and over time you can get an idea of what the car is tending to do at each load site?
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 04:52 PM   #17
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

The objective that you are trying to achieve is at a given MAF voltage (not load), what is the error in fueling. This has nothing to do with load settings.

Let it run for a while, get it warm then log fuel correction and fuel learning against MAF voltage in the low range only.

Then you will want to bring these into excel or similar and average the corrections for a given voltage and probably only in the region of 1.1 volts to 1.5 volts to start with.

You do not need to do the top end.

Let it idle - log it at idle for a while - analyse this log and apply it.
Pull away very slowly trying to keep throttle movements to a minimum and log this.
Drive at very low rpm ranges in one gear on the flat. second gear is good and a nice clear car park is a good place to do it. Log this, apply the corrections.

The idea is to keep a steady MAF voltage working from the bottom upwards one step at a time.
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 05:00 PM   #18
jaxscuby
Sammo Hung
Moderator
 
Member#: 10613
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: F L O R I D A
Vehicle:
2002 USDM WRX
WRB

Default

usually when adjusting your maf table you warm your car to operating
temperatures. log or observe the short & long term fuel adjustment values.

factory acceptable range is 12~14% total of both short & long.
when i adjusted the maf i could get the total value as low as 7%.
jaxscuby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 05:04 PM   #19
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

mine is within 1.6% - it is possible even with larger injectors but it takes a long time. For me it took around 15 map iterations.
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 05:06 PM   #20
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

thanks again for the info... now i think i'm ready to begin making changes confidently.
i was confusing the relationship between maf and load and without looking at a map forgot that the actual maf scaling has nothing to do with load, its is only mafV and maf g/s (i think thats what it is from memory at least).
regardless, i will sit down with this as soon as i have some time to devote to it and see if i can get idle and cruising more in line.
thanks a ton... i'll report back with my results, hopefully in the next day or two.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 05:08 PM   #21
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

and just because i may be in this situation soon, can i scale the maf for my intake, then put in bigger injectors and only really have to mess with injector scaling, or will i need to redo the maf scaling entirely at that point as well?
the answer doesnt matter much as i need the practice with enginuity and will be working on dialing it in better, just curious as to how it works.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 05:59 PM   #22
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

once the MAF curve is right for your intake it 'should' be just a case of changing the injector scalar and latencies
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 09:30 AM   #23
gabedude
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 10108
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Lake Travis, Austin, TX
Vehicle:
07 STI
60Trim TQ monster

Default

Yeah it is the MAF scaling. You need to watch your LC1 AFR and IDCs as well. You are already over 100% IDC. The LTFT range that is carried over into open loop looks to be ok though. The rich spike is caused by your LTFT.
gabedude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 12:38 AM   #24
Wrinkleboi
Top Scoob 006
 
Member#: 14424
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stuart, FL
Vehicle:
BugI w/ 07 STi Swap
www.TriStateTuners.com

Default

ok and now that i am getting into the map to make changes, i see that you can edit both the maf V and the maf g/s... which one should i be editing? i had assumed the lower row as it is the g/s but i want to be sure i'm not heading in the wrong direction with my adjustments.
also, any guestimate to how much you modify the values based on the fuel correct? say that its adding 10% fuel, should i multiply my maf value (v or g/s?) by 1.1? or is it not a linear relationship like that?

and another question... i have noticed that turning on and off my headlights, parking lights, rear defroster, etc. causes a change in load, and a corresponding change in fuel adjustment. is that normal? i would assume that the change in load is normal, and once i have the maf adjusted well that no matter the load site i am in, the fuel adjustment wont change much anywhere.

thanks again for all the beginner questions. i wish that someone would write a enginuity bible like the utec bible that mick the ginge wrote... it could go over the things like this. i know it would be very time consuming but boy would it be helpful. maybe even sell it or suggest a donation for $5 or $10 to help pay those involved in enginuity's development.
Wrinkleboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 03:06 AM   #25
dynamix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 122603
Join Date: Aug 2006
Default

You should adjust the MAF grams.

If the LTFT is +10% at that voltage then the grams/sec at that point should go up 10%
dynamix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
please check my logs! mystilexzero Open Source Reflashes 22 11-18-2011 12:39 PM
Please Check My Data Log (New logs added) Xsile STI Engine Management & Tuning 6 04-30-2010 04:17 PM
97 Sti Afterfiring and running rich - Please help bradsti Newbies & FAQs 9 04-16-2008 07:30 PM
Please Check My Logs clemsonteg UTEC 4 08-28-2007 06:30 PM
Please check my logs from today MidRex UTEC 15 04-14-2006 10:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.