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Old 11-15-2007, 03:46 PM   #1
Phatron
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Default How to get rid of random/intermittent knock?

I have been logging up a storm lately and when i first started I was going down a road, doing one 3rd gear pull, then going home to look at it.

Yesterday I started doing on pull on the way out and one on the way back and looking at both logs.

Everytime I do this i will get Feedback Knock on one of the runs.

How do I correct this? Or find the cause if its intermittent?
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:56 PM   #2
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Is it always about the same RPM and load? If so, I'd either reduce timing or add fuel, depending on what you're running now.

I wouldn't worry too much about an occasional single increment of feedback (usually -2, or -1.76, or -2.11...). But 50% of the time is more I'd definitely consider unacceptable.

Are you also logging fine learning correction? Repeated feedback correction should work its way into fine learning over time, and possibly even IAM. Make sure you fine and coarse RPM and load ranges are wide enough to catch where you are seeing feedback correction. The stock ROM may only allow fine and coarse to ~2.7 load when a stage 2 car can easily go over 3.0 load.

Post some example logs.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:04 PM   #3
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Log on my way to work this morning

6058 -2.11
6092 -2.11
6112 -2.11

Last night is was 2400-3600 rpm. Its usually in one of those spots. But I can go 10 logs without seeing any, then boom.

And its not making its way into my IAM or Fine KC yet since i keep reflashing.

And this is on my 02WRX w/ 2.2L stroker, tbe and up pipe.

I think when I first started logging on my "stock" map my IAM was 16 and it did have Fine KC of -1 at the low rpm range and also right at 6000. That means its pretty consistent right? but not that bad since my IAM was still 16?
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:32 PM   #4
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Check the ROM. There are 4 Debug Mode Maps that calls for a -2.11 reduction in timing at that exact same RPM range. You need to zero out both of those(2 of 4 have a neg reduction) It is in the Timing section "Timing Compensation Per Cylinder". Remember, you have a stroker, so this should have been reduced by you tuner from the beginning. That should help you out.

John

If you cant find what I am looking for, let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Log on my way to work this morning

6058 -2.11
6092 -2.11
6112 -2.11

Last night is was 2400-3600 rpm. Its usually in one of those spots. But I can go 10 logs without seeing any, then boom.

And its not making its way into my IAM or Fine KC yet since i keep reflashing.

And this is on my 02WRX w/ 2.2L stroker, tbe and up pipe.

I think when I first started logging on my "stock" map my IAM was 16 and it did have Fine KC of -1 at the low rpm range and also right at 6000. That means its pretty consistent right? but not that bad since my IAM was still 16?
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS77 View Post
Check the ROM. There are 4 Debug Mode Maps that calls for a -2.11 reduction in timing at that exact same RPM range. You need to zero out both of those(2 of 4 have a neg reduction) It is in the Timing section "Timing Compensation Per Cylinder". Remember, you have a stroker, so this should have been reduced by you tuner from the beginning. That should help you out.
Per cylinder timing compensation is NOT reflected in any element of Knock correction (feedback, fine, or advance with the IAM applied). It is applied to total timing and even so, only cylinder #1 (Table A) would be logged. So, the -2.11 feedback correction he logged has nothing to do with per cylinder compensation or any other compensation. It would be directly in response to what the ecu perceives as knock.
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
Per cylinder timing compensation is NOT reflected in any element of Knock correction (feedback, fine, or advance with the IAM applied). It is applied to total timing and even so, only cylinder #1 (Table A) would be logged. So, the -2.11 feedback correction he logged has nothing to do with per cylinder compensation or any other compensation. It would be directly in response to what the ecu perceives as knock.

Oh, I thought the logger would log any negative correction. If the table calls for -2.11 at 6000 RPM it would reflect that reduction. My mistake... I have to be honest, when I removed that neg correction, on an 02 WRX Hybrid motor tune, the -2.11 stopped. I thought that that was the fix, maybe it was just a coincidence... SO, if a table calls for a knock reduction, it will not show in the Feedback Knock log?
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS77 View Post
SO, if a table calls for a knock reduction, it will not show in the Feedback Knock log?
Total Timing = Base Timing + Knock Correction + Other timing compensations

Other timing compensations include those for IAT, ECT, per cylinder, for example.

Knock Correction = Timing Advance (max)*IAM + feedback knock correction + fine learning knock correction

The IAM and feedback/fine correction are the only elements which correct based on the knock signal, which is either on (ecu perceives knock) or off (ecu does not perceive knock).

So, other timing compensations, such as per cylinder, would not have anything to do with the elements of KC. However, since changes to the other timing compensations impact total timing, then your changes could have an effect on knock which would indirectly impact KC.
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:06 PM   #8
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Got it. I was just not articulating my point correctly. Thanks, and as always, keep up the good work. Your contributions to the Subaru community are greatly appreciated!!
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:15 AM   #9
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This is really bugging me. My IAM goes from 8 to 16 in 2-3 WOT pulls, knocking each time. How can the IAM go up if im knocking?

Can someone post up some plots of what a nice timing curve should look like?

Some of the runs it will advance to 20* in the midrange and not knock, on other runs it will reduce it down to 14*.

It seems fine when my IAM is 8 or 12, but when it goes up to 16 it starts knocking. Suggestions?
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Old 11-17-2007, 05:44 AM   #10
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Lower the maximum advance in the Advance Table a touch ??
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
This is really bugging me. My IAM goes from 8 to 16 in 2-3 WOT pulls, knocking each time. How can the IAM go up if im knocking?
Most likely, your coarse load and/or RPM settings do not include the load/rpm where you are seeing knock. Check these settings.

Can you post your map?
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Old 11-17-2007, 01:37 PM   #12
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Did that. But like I was saying when the IAM increases itself to 16, then it starts knocking....

Code:
RPM	FBKC	IAM	BASE	IGN	ADV
1950	0	8	27.81	23.5	0.70
2018	0	8	24.3	26.5	4.92
2064	0	8	23.95	26	4.92
2126	0	8	23.24	25	4.92
2179	0	8	22.54	25	4.92
2255	0	8	21.84	23.5	4.92
2324	0	8	20.78	22.5	4.92
2415	0	8	19.73	21.5	4.92
2478	0	8	18.67	20	4.92
2548	0	8	16.56	18.5	4.92
2642	0	8	15.51	17.5	4.92
2735	0	8	14.45	15.5	4.92
2847	0	8	13.05	14	4.92
2922	0	8	10.94	13.5	4.92
3080	0	8	10.94	14	4.92
3184	0	8	10.94	14	4.92
3307	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
3442	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
3600	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
3742	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
3836	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4010	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4116	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4264	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4398	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4504	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4632	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4750	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4842	0	8	10.94	14	5.27
4970	0	8	11.29	14	5.27
5088	0	8	11.29	14	5.27
5151	0	8	11.64	14.5	5.27
5282	0	8	11.64	14.5	5.27
5353	0	8	11.99	15	5.27
5435	0	8	12.34	16.5	5.27
5547	0	8	14.8	18	5.27
5703	0	8	16.56	20	5.27
5778	0	8	17.97	22	5.27
5846	0	8	19.38	23.5	5.27
5966	0	8	21.13	25	5.27
6029	0	8	22.89	26	5.27
6147	0	8	23.24	26.5	5.27
6162	0	8	23.59	26.5	5.27
6297	0	8	23.95	29	5.27
6410	0	8	24.3	29.5	5.27
6476	0	8	24.3	29.5	5.27
6482	0	8	24.65	30	5.27
6620	0	8	25	30	5.27
6666	0	8	25	30.5	5.27
6678	0	8	25.35	30.5	5.27
6818	0	8	25.7	30.5	5.27
6830	0	8	26.05	31.5	5.27
Code:
RPM	FBKC	IAM	BASE	IGN	ADV
2265	0	16	42.23	42	0.00
2202	0	16	36.95	27	0.00
2304	0	16	26.41	32	9.14
2381	0	16	22.54	30.5	9.84
2488	0	16	18.32	26	9.84
2587	0	16	15.51	23	9.84
2743	0	16	12.7	21	9.84
2886	0	16	10.94	18.5	9.84
3016	-2.11	16	10.94	19	10.20
3246	-2.11	16	10.94	17.5	10.90
3459	-4.22	16	10.94	15.5	10.90
3646	-4.22	16	10.94	15.5	10.90
3834	-4.22	16	10.94	15.5	10.90
4041	-4.22	16	10.94	15.5	10.90
4259	-4.22	16	10.94	15.5	10.90
4394	-3.16	16	10.94	16.5	10.90
4610	-3.16	16	10.94	16.5	10.90
4738	-3.16	16	10.94	16.5	10.90
4921	-3.16	16	11.29	16.5	10.90
5105	-3.16	16	11.29	17	10.90
5237	-3.16	16	11.64	17	10.90
5423	-2.11	16	12.34	18.5	10.90
5531	-4.22	16	14.1	18.5	10.90
5643	-4.22	16	16.56	21	10.90
5832	-4.22	16	18.32	22.5	10.90
5924	-4.22	16	20.78	26	10.90
6014	-4.22	16	22.54	26.5	10.90
6152	-4.22	16	23.24	27.5	10.90
6229	0	16	23.59	34	10.90
6329	0	16	24.3	34.5	10.90
6493	0	16	24.65	35	10.90
6544	0	16	25	35.5	10.90
6625	0	16	25.35	36	10.90
6756	0	16	25.7	36.5	10.90
6862	0	16	26.05	36.5	10.90
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:24 PM   #13
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Think I fixed it

Code:
RPM	LOAD	FBKC	IAM	BASE	IGN	ADV
2764	0.64	0	16	37.3	36.00	0
2825	1.14	0	16	21.84	25.00	5.98
2856	1.41	0	16	15.86	19.50	5.98
2970	1.66	0	16	11.99	15.50	5.98
3096	1.87	0	16	10.59	14.00	5.98
3187	2.01	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
3340	2.15	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
3437	2.25	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
3616	2.24	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
3761	2.04	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
3880	1.94	0	16	10.23	14.00	5.98
3998	2.02	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
4116	2.15	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
4242	2.23	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
4414	2.28	0	16	9.88	13.50	5.98
4499	2.26	0	16	9.88	14.00	5.98
4661	2.22	0	16	9.88	14.00	6.33
4786	2.19	0	16	9.88	14.00	6.68
4886	2.14	0	16	10.23	15.00	7.03
5044	2.13	0	16	10.94	15.50	7.03
5109	2.11	0	16	11.29	16.00	7.03
5215	2.09	0	16	11.64	16.50	7.03
5308	2.04	0	16	11.99	17.00	7.03
5438	2.02	0	16	14.1	19.00	7.03
5543	1.98	0	16	15.51	20.00	7.03
5652	1.94	0	16	17.62	22.50	7.03
5787	1.91	0	16	19.38	25.00	7.03
5832	1.89	0	16	21.48	26.00	7.03
5943	1.86	0	16	22.89	27.00	7.03
6014	1.84	0	16	23.24	28.00	7.73
6168	1.81	0	16	23.59	29.50	8.44
6234	1.78	0	16	23.95	33.00	9.49
6260	1.76	0	16	24.3	33.50	9.84
6432	1.73	0	16	24.65	35.50	10.55
6460	1.72	0	16	25	35.50	10.9
6516	1.7	0	16	25.35	36.00	10.9
6596	1.68	0	16	25.7	36.50	10.9
6637	1.66	0	16	25.7	36.50	10.9
6762	0.5	0	16	11.99	11.50	0
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:55 PM   #14
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Yeah, looks like you pulled a decent amount of timing (from the advance table). Seems to have stopped the FBC you were seeing.

What's with your load decreasing at ~3800 rpm? Boost bouncing around a tad?
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:57 AM   #15
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yeah, i couldnt figure it out. it would run ~20* total timing from 3-5k rpm fine for a run or two then it would knock and pull timing down to ~16* the next run so i decreased the base to 10* and the advance to 6* so it would be 16* total with an IAM of 16.

My boost is the same way. It will hit TGT Boost exactly one run and go crazy the next. These runs were 7 minutes apart and the TGT Boost is 16.22 psi the first run and 15.18 psi the second run...? I dont get it. Sometimes the TGT Boost is 15psi one run then 17.5 psi the next run. My TGT Boost table is 17.4 psi across 100% WOT. Why does it change so much between runs?

Code:
RPM	BOOST	TGT
2470	-0.58	15.18
2519	2.03	15.18
2557	3.19	15.18
2614	4.06	15.18
2713	5.08	15.18
2756	6.09	15.62
2874	7.25	16.22
2965	8.71	16.22
3054	11.03	16.22
3134	13.06	16.22
3255	14.51	16.22
3420	15.24	16.22
3549	15.96	16.22
3634	16.25	16.22
3790	16.4	16.22
3884	16.54	16.22
4045	16.4	16.22
4162	16.25	16.22
4256	15.96	16.22
4380	15.96	16.22
4483	16.11	16.22
4673	16.11	16.22
4756	16.11	16.22
4873	15.96	15.88
4990	15.53	15.68
5112	15.09	15.24
5186	14.8	15.01
5326	14.36	14.75
5419	13.93	14.48
5531	13.49	14.15
5597	13.06	13.77
5690	12.77	13.52
5760	12.48	13.38
5859	12.19	13.17
5966	12.04	13.05
6063	11.61	12.88
6073	11.75	12.49
6234	11.46	12.32
6255	11.46	12.05
6308	11.32	11.47
6378	11.32	11.23
6527	11.03	11.2
6544	11.03	10.71
6666	11.17	10.73
6720	11.17	10.44
Code:
RPM	BOOST 	TGT
2764	-4.64	9.09
2825	1.74	15.18
2856	4.64	15.18
2970	7.98	15.18
3096	11.17	15.18
3187	13.2	15.18
3340	15.67	15.18
3437	17.12	15.18
3616	17.27	15.18
3761	14.8	15.18
3880	12.91	15.18
3998	13.2	15.41
4116	15.38	15.62
4242	16.54	15.74
4414	16.98	15.84
4499	16.98	15.89
4661	16.69	15.97
4786	16.25	16.01
4886	15.67	15.95
5044	15.38	15.72
5109	14.95	15.47
5215	14.51	15.12
5308	14.07	14.81
5438	13.64	14.5
5543	13.2	14.19
5652	12.91	13.85
5787	12.62	13.59
5832	12.19	13.46
5943	12.04	13.25
6014	11.9	13.05
6168	11.61	12.61
6234	11.46	12.53
6260	11.32	12.07
6432	11.32	11.62
6460	11.17	11.56
6516	11.32	11.31
6596	11.32	10.81
6637	11.32	10.77
6762	11.46	10.5
Code:
	12	24	36	49	62	76	88	100
1600	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
2380	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
2450	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
2550	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
2800	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
4800	10.06	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	16.4	17.4
5600	10.06	14.4	14.4	14.4	14.4	14.4	14.4	15
6000	10.06	13.4	13.4	13.4	13.4	13.4	13.4	14
6800	10.06	11	11	11	11	11	11	12
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:43 AM   #16
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is that your target boost table?

if so, why have got 16.4 target in for 24% throttle? must be weird to drive.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:45 AM   #17
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Yeah thats my target boost table. the car will never hit that, just graph out the #'s I posted right above the TGT boost table, it ramps up pretty normal. Actually I think it spools slow for a TD04 on a 2.2L

I could put 50 psi in there at 24% TPS and it wouldnt make a difference. The turbo still has to spool...its not like im driving around at a constant 16.4 psi of boost, but its trying.

But that table was put in by my tuner when my car was put back to stock from a rotated kit. I think he did it like that for simplicity.

If im out driving around today Ill do some 24% TPS pulls for ya.
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:57 PM   #18
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His uppipe started leaking a little at higher boost that's why his load/boost is hunting a bit. As for the timing, his IAM was increasing because the load was above rough correction table limit. We increased the rough correction maximum load to his max load and logged again. IAM dropped and settled at 15. The above mentioned changes to base (lowered) and advance (increased) were made after.

When working with timing is it better to rely more on base (ie make base more aggresive) or the advance table? It seems the way to achieve the most headroom over the widest range of operating conditions would be conservative base timing relying on IAM and advance tables to get the best optimization of total timing? Just wondering what seems to work better? I understand that you don't want to "prop" the map up with timing advance but I would think that you'd want the base map advance to be just below the anticipated knock threshold for your anticipated worst conditions.

v/r
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:53 PM   #19
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Dirty White

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FWIW, when I have seen random knock or knock where there should be none, it is often either something banging against the knock sensor, like a connector, or there is something bouncing on the top of the block, like a lost hose clamp.

So, it's not a EM tuning issue at all.
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