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Old 11-22-2007, 03:49 AM   #1
ravenhil
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Default Sard 800cc/min and Latency

Looks like I chewed off more than I can swallow when I agreed to help out a buddy of mine with his WRX. I could really use some help!

My buddy drives a MY06 WRX 2.5 L (euro version) with a nice TD05-20G turbo and Sard 800cc/min injectors. To make things harder, the TGV has been removed. The car was tuned with Ecutek previously. Decided to get more involved so he swapped his ECU for a stock one and we decided to hack it ourselves.

Obviously, idling wthout dying is near to impossible and the garage stinks of petrol fumes. It is obviously running way too rich with the stock ECU.

First thing I did was to read the ROM, made a copy of the original and got to work.

Injector Flow Scaling
Set this to "800"

Started the car but idle is just as bad. No improvements.

Throttle Tip-in Enrichment
Reduced the figure by 10% down the column. That helped, but not by much. Stab the accelerator pedal and saw the rpm needle crashing to its death.

Injector Latency
I know the solution lies in this parameter! But I cannot for the life of me understand what to do with it!



So I searched the web and checked out the Sard website, even spoke to a local Sard dealer, and found that the "LATENCY" for Sard 800c/min injecors are 1.6ms.

Er... okay, so wth is that supposed to mean?

AFAIK, the injectors are, for lack of a better term, fired up at 14v. So I would be inclined to be believed that I should change the stock latency value of 1.20ms to 1.6ms at the 14v row. Thus changed the latency at 14v to 1.6ms.

Didn't work.

Increased the entire latency column by 45% over stock so that 14v = 1.6ms

Still didn't work. Finished a pack of cigarettes at this point.

Increased Injector flow Scaling to 750, didn't work. Tried 850. Did not work.

Set the tip in back to stock. Started the car again and the damn car refuse to idle. Tried depresing the accelerator pedal and i hear an odd mechanical noise before the revs climbs up again.

Ran out of ideas at this point of time. I know for certain that the car is running too rich. The exhaust pipe is smoking at idle. Decided to go crazy and mutiplied the latency column by 2!



Surprisingly, the idle could hold, though it hunts often. The exhaust still smokes from the tail pipe, though not as much as before.

Though I understand what latency mean (injector dead time), i cannot understand how this value influence idling. IDC at idle for the other WRX I;ve tuned is between 1.3 to 1.5%. This one idles at 2.4% IDC. Did a datalog and the AFR learning is going all the way to lean it down.

I can increase latency figures but I know that what i am doing cannot be the smartest solution. I've truly run out of ideas.

Any suggestions will be appreciated!
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Last edited by ravenhil; 11-29-2007 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 11-22-2007, 11:50 AM   #2
JMS77
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Ok... stop messing with Tip In. Put the scalar to 770 and set the latency at 14v to 1.2. If it is still too rich, lower the 14v value further....say .02 increments. Monitor the AF Learning and AF Correction....keep them at =/-5% and you are good to go. I am assuming you have a stock intake too.

I would recommend you contact a tuner....there is alot more to go after the scalar/latency adjustments. I am not saying you cannot learn, but at this point you may need more help than we can give you in posts.

If you don't have access to a local tuner, let me know via PM and I can see what I can do.
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Old 11-22-2007, 02:04 PM   #3
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^^ that's the safest way to go from here
Gluck
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:21 AM   #4
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Datalogged the car with the 14v latency at 2.5 ms. Even better idle now. was worried that it might run lean. But I guess the data log (at idle) shows otherwise.
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:25 AM   #5
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yeah damn right I wanted to throw in the towel on that night and call for a tuner. But I was stuck in a desolate stretch of road and stuck with a car that won't even idle Very motivating, i would say. Nothing drives a man like panic.
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Old 11-23-2007, 11:42 AM   #6
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Hunger drives me pretty loopy
Thank goodness for turkey day
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:28 PM   #7
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From the look of the log there it is running waaaaaay too rich.

Can you post a log of it with the std latency and injector scalar at around 800 with the same parameters?
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:27 AM   #8
ravenhil
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way too rich is correct. And the datalog of the std latency with scaled injectors to 800 shows nothing, cuz it will only log the car trying to crank start. absolute futility.

how do you guys tune to compensate for tgv deletes? it might be an overlooked factor.
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:55 PM   #9
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Code:
Time	Air/Fuel Sensor #1 (AFR)	Engine Load (Calculated) (2*g/rev)	Engine Speed (rpm)	Ignition Timing (degrees)	Injector Duty Cycle (%)	Intake Air Temperature (C)	Manifold Relative Pressure (Corrected) (bar)	Throttle Opening Angle (%)	Vehicle Speed (kph)	Learned Ignition Timing (degrees)	Battery Voltage (V)	Air/Fuel Correction #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Correction #3 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #1 (%)	Air/Fuel Learning #3 (%)	Air/Fuel Sensor #1 Current (mA)	Air/Fuel Sensor #1 Resistance (ohms)	Mass Air Flow Sensor Voltage (V)
53:37.0	12.86	0.7	788	20	1.82	44	-0.57	6.67	0	0	13.68	-25	-53.12	0	0	-0.62	31	1.4
53:37.2	12.86	0.8	748	22	1.72	45	-0.54	6.67	0	0	13.6	-25	-53.12	0	0	-0.62	31	1.44
53:37.5	12.86	0.83	718	22	1.67	45	-0.52	6.67	0	0	13.6	-25	-53.12	0	0	-0.62	31	1.44
53:37.7	13.09	1.01	721	22.5	1.85	45	-0.4	7.84	0	0	13.68	-25	-53.91	0	0	-0.5	31	1.5
53:38.0	13.21	1.26	822	21.5	2.58	45	-0.48	9.41	0	0	13.68	-25	-58.59	0	0	-0.5	32	1.72
53:38.2	12.4	0.63	1161	31	3.02	45	-0.62	7.84	0	0	13.6	-25	-59.38	0	0	-0.75	32	1.52
53:38.5	12.98	0.45	1257	40	2.69	45	-0.67	6.67	0	0	13.6	-16.41	-53.12	0	0	-0.5	32	1.38
53:38.8	12.06	0.81	1140	34.5	2.42	45	-0.66	7.45	0	0	13.52	-20.31	-53.12	0	0	-0.88	31	1.44
53:39.0	11.14	0.46	1000	34.5	2.08	45	-0.65	5.49	0	0	13.44	-25	-53.12	0	0	-1.38	31	1.34
53:39.3	11.14	0.57	835	27.5	1.78	45	-0.62	5.88	0	0	13.68	-25	-53.12	0	0	-1.38	31	1.36
53:39.5	11.14	0.74	724	26.5	1.65	45	-0.56	6.27	0	0	13.44	-25	-53.12	0	0	-1.38	31	1.38
Still too rich?
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:10 PM   #10
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I'd set the scaling to about 750. Raise the latency by 15% across the board for each voltage (multiply). Tune the MAF to reach stochiometric at idle.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:56 PM   #11
ravenhil
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Considering that one buddy car is too lean with a big MAF and this guy's car is too rich with 800cc Sard injectors, I think I am going to ask them to swap MAFs and solve my problem both ways!!

Please tell me it'll work!
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:40 PM   #12
ravenhil
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I found out another thing. The Sard 800cc injectors is meant to be used on a 2L WRX.



The unmodified injector latency for a 2L WRX


The unmodifiedinjector latency for a 2.5L WRX

A google search on Sard 800cc/min injectors reveals that the latency is given as 1.6ms at unknown voltage.

Assuming that the Sard injector latency is given for 14V, the multiplier difference will be x 2.35.

So applying this multiplier difference to the injector latecy of the 2.5L WRX, I get the following.



The idling is perfect. Only problem is, it is still running rich. Air/Fuel Correction #3 is -90% thereabout. Scaled the MAF down by 5% but that didn't help. I wonder if there is a leak somewhere...
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:01 AM   #13
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Hello. Use the new 0.80b enginuity definition, you will have closer latency setting to what you obtained.


There is 0.64 factor that the new definition added on 2.5L latency scaling.

SO what you get from web quoting 1.6ms..

with your current 2.35ms(based on older definition).x0.64 will get you 1.8ms..which is closed to information you obtained.

Also..why bother to check fuel learning #3(The rear oxygen sensor)..when Learning and Correction #1 should be used for the fuel trim
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Old 01-30-2008, 06:09 AM   #14
ravenhil
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Er, the latency of 1.6 is given from Sard themselves...
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenhil View Post
I found out another thing. The Sard 800cc injectors is meant to be used on a 2L WRX.

that will not matter as latency and scaling can be adjusted regardless of block size. The reason the latency is different is each of those stock injectors (2.0L compared to 2.5L) are different.

honestly I usually recommend deatschwerks modified injectors over any other injector for around those flow rates, plus they are very easy to tune for.

PM me if you'd like me to take a look at the ROM for you
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:09 AM   #16
ravenhil
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Thanks for the offer. You are right. DW injectors are easier to work on. I will recommend these injectors the next time.

Unfortunately, my friend has sold his car so my project cannot continue. Nonetheless, the latency adjustments mentioned earlier in this thread has worked out well thus far, though idling is a little rough, but it doesn't die anymore.

I appreciate the help of everyone in this forum. You guys make learning fun! Thank you.
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Old 06-08-2013, 01:22 PM   #17
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Default sard 800cc injectors on the 2L wrx sti

[quote=ravenhil;20637387]I found out another thing. The Sard 800cc injectors is meant to be used on a 2L WRX.




I am running the sard 800cc injectors on my 2L wrx sti, i have tried 770, 660 and 715 injector flow rate.. the car seems happiest with the 715, however im still having trouble scaling the latencies. What latencies should i use?
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:08 AM   #18
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