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Old 03-21-2009, 10:21 PM   #301
Granite
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actually.. to answer some of these do i need an intake or fmic to get 400whp questions, just take a look at the litchfield type 25. http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...d_type_25.html
Granted I cant be sure it is crank and not whp but it goes a long way in explaining where you can go with the stock intake and tmic.
Having said that, yes changing the intake would free up extra horses but/and the transition would take place somewhere around 400whp. It is a question of whether you wanna spend the cash or have it to spend on that intake.
As for the FMIC, well, if you intend to change to a FMIC, you WILL have to change the intake. Besides that, you would have to contend with the increase in water temps due to the blocked radiator as well as a measure of turbo lag. You would also have to get a turbo that complements the FMIC core. But yes, you would be able to get extra ponies on an FMIC but most likely only if you get a road tune, not a dyno, as the dyno fan wont be able to simulate the extra cooling an FMIC gets.

On the one hand, noobies need to be a little realistic as to the horsepower goals and costs but it is most certainly a growth process where more knowledge and research will allow you to understand better. Going to the track (or rally or whatever you want your car to do) a couple of times would also help prioritise your build and allow you to be more focused on what you really need and when. Needless to say, I dont think modding belongs to the street if one intends to show off his new found power and wreck his car and other people's lives.

Still on the other side of things, if you are serious about modding and have a passion for it, dont let what others say discourage you. Go for it. One step at a time and dont overextend yourself financially or physically. Know your limits. If we dont pursue our passions, we will never know whether we could have gotten there.
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:39 PM   #302
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I have a 300whp STI, and it's pretty quick for most. I've become very used to it though for the past 2 years. I'm ready to make about 360whp/400tq. I've ridden in my friends 360whp and it was a very quick ride for what it was. I think that is a realistic goal for my street driven ride. I've driven and modded all types of cars, so 400whp isn't that crazy these days.
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:43 PM   #303
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My car is 400whp and you cant take that away from me bastard!
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:14 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
actually.. to answer some of these do i need an intake or fmic to get 400whp questions, just take a look at the litchfield type 25. http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...d_type_25.html
Granted I cant be sure it is crank and not whp but it goes a long way in explaining where you can go with the stock intake and tmic.
Having said that, yes changing the intake would free up extra horses but/and the transition would take place somewhere around 400whp. It is a question of whether you wanna spend the cash or have it to spend on that intake.
As for the FMIC, well, if you intend to change to a FMIC, you WILL have to change the intake. Besides that, you would have to contend with the increase in water temps due to the blocked radiator as well as a measure of turbo lag. You would also have to get a turbo that complements the FMIC core. But yes, you would be able to get extra ponies on an FMIC but most likely only if you get a road tune, not a dyno, as the dyno fan wont be able to simulate the extra cooling an FMIC gets.

On the one hand, noobies need to be a little realistic as to the horsepower goals and costs but it is most certainly a growth process where more knowledge and research will allow you to understand better. Going to the track (or rally or whatever you want your car to do) a couple of times would also help prioritise your build and allow you to be more focused on what you really need and when. Needless to say, I dont think modding belongs to the street if one intends to show off his new found power and wreck his car and other people's lives.

Still on the other side of things, if you are serious about modding and have a passion for it, dont let what others say discourage you. Go for it. One step at a time and dont overextend yourself financially or physically. Know your limits. If we dont pursue our passions, we will never know whether we could have gotten there.
the thing about that car that concerns me the most is that they put a cosworth in there and it isn't making that much power... Like they are not comfortable with the stock block, or even just forged pistons when pushing just under 400CHP. Makes me rethink reliability

its interesting that they ceramic coat not only the outside of the intake manifold, but the inside too!
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Old 03-22-2009, 12:40 AM   #305
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My answer is:
Make car handle and stop better, and then think about going faster!
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:56 AM   #306
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I just wanted to address a couple things.


1. Again, yes, you can make 400whp on the stock intake and a TMIC. But if you were to replace that intake and go to a FMIC, you will gain a LOT of power. You can make 400whp, easier, with an intake and a FMIC. Anyone who tells you different, has no idea what they are talking about.

2. Because you can make 400whp easier with a FMIC and intake, you can do so at lower engine stress with a more conservative tune. So look at all the people smugly telling you that you wasted your money, and laugh because at the same power level, your engine will be a good bit more reliable than theirs.

3. This thread IS NOT ABOUT THAT ANYWAY. Its about helping those who have no idea, understand what it really means and takes.

4. The litchfield is 400CHP, not whp, a completely and totally different thing. We are talking about a 60-70hp difference between 400chp and 400whp. Its nothing remotely close to approaching comperable.

Last edited by Defiant Autospeed; 03-22-2009 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:53 AM   #307
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Just FYI
1) my car HAS an intake and an FMIC. So I am not in disagreement with the points you made. YET, it is not without reason people still argue in this time and age between the perks of a TMIC and an FMIC. They each have their own advantages. Turbo spool and reaction for one. However, if you use your car only on the street and not for say, sustained laps on track where temps will really start to go up, then you wont notice some of the disadvantages..

2) Cant argue with point 2 that you made there.. Not at 400whp anyway.

3) I believe in painting the right picture. Whilst newbies need to have a more accurate picture of what it takes to get to 400whp, we all didnt get there overnight either. I do believe many do not really comprehend the levels of commitment and coin involved but you cannot smack a whole crowd to get at a few people. Those few people still can do with the right direction and encouragement to get to where they can and want.

4) I did mention that the litchfield could have been 400CHP didnt I? I thought it was pretty clear to all that I did mention that. It was just to paint a more accurate picture of what the stock intake and intercooler could do. And to what levels it can get you. What it does here is expands the knowledge of people and awareness of the different possibilities and paths in a build. That way, people can prioritise and plan. Or even go in the same direction. After all, I dont see many claimed 400whp cars performing as well as the Type 25. It is simply a phenomenal car that didnt put all the eggs in one basket.

In any case, for reader's knowledge, do know that 400whp is a very subjective topic. 400whp can be 300whp on a different dyno. Some shops overdo the compensation values and loading simulations, giving very skewed read outs. Different dynos (chassis, hub, etc) produce different results. So my point is - Dont chase the horsepowers. Start somewhere and have a goal. Builds arent made overnight. Do it with enough research and planning, and if halfway through you think its too hot to handle, why go on? Its what you feel and think about your car that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
I just wanted to address a couple things.


1. Again, yes, you can make 400whp on the stock intake and a TMIC. But if you were to replace that intake and go to a FMIC, you will gain a LOT of power. You can make 400whp, easier, with an intake and a FMIC. Anyone who tells you different, has no idea what they are talking about.

2. Because you can make 400whp easier with a FMIC and intake, you can do so at lower engine stress with a more conservative tune. So look at all the people smugly telling you that you wasted your money, and laugh because at the same power level, your engine will be a good bit more reliable than theirs.

3. This thread IS NOT ABOUT THAT ANYWAY. Its about helping those who have no idea, understand what it really means and takes.

4. The litchfield is 400CHP, not whp, a completely and totally different thing. We are talking about a 60-70hp difference between 400chp and 400whp. Its nothing remotely close to approaching comperable.

Last edited by Granite; 03-23-2009 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:44 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostasz View Post
My answer is:
Make car handle and stop better, and then think about going faster!
+ 1 here! That is what I'm doing. Only after that I will go for power. And not talking about 400whp... I friend took me for a ride on his 450+ WHP Golf GTI and that thing scared the S#!T out of me!
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:42 PM   #309
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i completely endorse this post

I learned on 80whp and then slowly crept up to the 210-220ish i have now in my 2700 lb GC8, and will after i finish all of my suspension mods down the road attack 300whp.

People really need to realize just how fast this is, hell 280whp is BLAZING fast for the street.
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:23 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMFLCL View Post
i completely endorse this post

I learned on 80whp and then slowly crept up to the 210-220ish i have now in my 2700 lb GC8, and will after i finish all of my suspension mods down the road attack 300whp.

People really need to realize just how fast this is, hell 280whp is BLAZING fast for the street.

yeah...lots of the puppies that come here saying 'i want 400whp' have only been in cars that had 400hp on kiddie dynos...and do 14second 1/4 mile times

most of them would **** their pants in a REAL 400whp car
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:24 PM   #311
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Bump for the recent slew of people who THINK they want 400whp.
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:27 AM   #312
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My stock WRX is fast enough for me at the moment. I learned on a 135 chp Legacy L wagon, moved up to a 165 chp Legacy GT wagon, and now have a 220 chp WRX wagon.

For me, honestly, I want something that makes 250 chp, but it makes 220 chp or more from 2,000 rpm to 7,000 rpm, without dropping under that level. Same with torque, I want 220+ torque at the crank from 2,000 rpm all the way to 7k, without it dropping under that point. And right now, I'm working on something that may just do that for me, but we will have to see...
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:52 AM   #313
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To the OP, thanks for the reality check.

Probably good that I only want to get to 300 or so whp in my WRX.....basically to get it to where an STi is.
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:08 AM   #314
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For me now I find whats the point having true 400hp to the wheels in new york city , I cant even enjoy my over 300hp to the wheels now and almost 350 pounds of torque .
It just ain't safe for me and the other drivers on the street .
I'm just going to enjoy the car for what it is now and just improve it's reliability, comfort, suspension, brakes, and so on .
The stock VF43 does a hell of job for the type of driving i'm doing, any bigger I know I would be miserable driving around the city .
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:17 AM   #315
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^^Have to agree its pretty hard to use on NYC streets lol, But I still want more for some reason....I think i just want to know the power is there if I wanted to use it. I dont think i would personally put a limit on whp until drivabilty really becomes a factor which I guess around 400 may become a factor....
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:29 AM   #316
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Quote:
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^^Have to agree its pretty hard to use on NYC streets lol, But I still want more for some reason....I think i just want to know the power is there if I wanted to use it. I dont think i would personally put a limit on whp until drivabilty really becomes a factor which I guess around 400 may become a factor....
yea I here ya it's a psychological thing, in your mine you want be able to say yea I got 400hp and if the need comes I can use it.

You ever notice when your on the highway and your stretching your legs out a little every freaking moron in no less pieces of crap car starts messing with you mean while your just trying to enjoy the car.

I miss the old days when nobody new nothing about these cars . you can park it any place and drive it and nobody messed with you .
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:30 AM   #317
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I couldn't agree more.
My first Subaru, I was well on the way to going to 400 HP. Was just about to do the turbo swap and final round of upgrades before loss of work, and I had to sell it.

During the interim, I drove an underpowered Protege5 that'd lived most of it's life at the red-line on a track. Loved the hell out of that car, and it taught me that while it's fun being able to set the road on fire on a straight run... it's a lot MORE fun taking 30mph curves at Retard Speed.

This time around.. sure, I'm doing the up and down-pipe. Getting rid of the Cat north of the turbo.. that's a no brainer. Squeezing a little more out of it with the downpipe.. stands to reason. Mating that to the stock 3rd cat and rear exhaust to stealth it a bit.. San Jose cops are getting cranky about non-stock exhausts.. and I admit I'm enough of a treehugger to not want to go catless.

No.. this car, I'm going for suspension, handling, and precision. BC inverted coil-overs, Corrin sub-frame brace, aluminum control arms, Perrin rear subframe/diff lockdown kit. Cobb swaybars. This time through, I'm going all suspension. Get the car to where it handled like that Protege5 did, and she'll be just fine by me.

And I've already signed up for track driving classes to learn how to drive the mini-monster I'm building. I won't be the fastest Subie.. but I'll be having fun and the car and I will be matched in terms of capability and ability.
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:32 AM   #318
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I have to say after reading a lot of post about WHP I think if I ever get to 300WHP I will be very happy. I went from a 160CHP SI to a 224CHP WRX. This has been a huge change for me. Caught myself doing over a 100MPH on the interstate after having my car for about 2 weeks. That WRX just wanted to keep on going.

I am not a drag strip guy. I just love going out and driving.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:21 AM   #319
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if I ever get to 300WHP I will be very happy.
I said the same thing, about $12,000 ago
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:25 AM   #320
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To the OP, thanks for the reality check.

Probably good that I only want to get to 300 or so whp in my WRX.....basically to get it to where an STi is.
Audio is right, good luck with that We all said that. Not saying you will go crazy and drop $$$$$$ like some people, but even 500+whp starts to feel slow after a while.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:34 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
I said the same thing, about $12,000 ago
I have also been informed autocross and over 300WHP can be real fun in a bad way. I love to autocross.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:41 AM   #322
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Watch as many in-cockpit vids of guys driving rally. Realize that these guys are dealing with slightly more HP than what you want in your car. Realize that these guys are driving on closed courses with very limited cars around compared to your average interstate. Realize these guys have trained for years to drive at this level. Now realize that these guys have two hands on the wheel 99% of the time, no stereo playing, no buds in the car, no cell phones, no food. Do you drive like that? If not, be VERY careful about the journey you want to embark on.
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:44 AM   #323
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I have also been informed autocross and over 300WHP can be real fun in a bad way. I love to autocross.
Depends what dyno you make that on. The setup required to make 300whp on our local dyno would be far too laggy to be fun at an autocross.

Using your car as an example, an 18G and an upgraded TMIC would be as far as I would go for autocross. On some dynos that will be 300whp or more. On others it wont be.

For a road course track car, and I know Jack will disagree with me (and for the most part, I agree with what he will say) I think just north of 300whp is a perfect power level. I say this because my 02 WRX HAD just north of 300whp, and I did track days with it. I could have actually done with maybe 30-35whp more, beyond that I would have lost time due to response. But make no mistake, you dont NEED that kind of power. Jack would have mopped the floor with me in his 100hp car. Give me 300whp and 100years of track experience (jack is like 137 years old. I think he may have been the original Gerber Baby ) and it would be a different story.

I also think had I had 400whp in that car, I would have either been a good bit slower, or in the wall.

I am all about balancing the fun. Ok so I could have gone stock, and worked only on the driving. It wouldnt have been nearly as fun, and at 300whp, the power wasnt so much that it was an issue of me learning to handle it on the track. ALTHOUGH at this point (speaking of my first track day) I also had over 10 years of driving, and 2 years of autocrossing every weekend all summer (most of the time, both sat and sunday) as well as a couple driving school events. SO maybe with less experience it would have been a liability. *shrug*
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:46 AM   #324
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i like the fast


vroom vroom
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Old 04-30-2009, 01:21 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
I said the same thing, about $12,000 ago
Tell me about it.

A year ago my car made me laugh like a maniac. Now I'm bored. Despite all the lengths I went to to make sure my car remained reliable with my current modifications, now I find myself thinking about seeing what the 2.0 will take before it craps out on me. Then I want to shoot for 350+ whp on a bigger engine.

It's a mental disease, and I'm trying to stop before my wallet spontaneously combusts. This speed obsession will either:

A) Force me to find a higher paying job

or

B) Force me to find a new hobby.
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