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Old 11-24-2007, 02:12 AM   #51
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If you want it bulletproof then you should probably stop buying pre "built" blocks. Get a bare block, take it to a real machine shop that builds race engines and have them measure and buy the correct pistons and machine the block for THOSE pistons, as well as fit the rings properly. I have yet to see any of the prebuilt "built" motors last on big power cars. Whereas the ones I have seen done right, seem to hold up pretty much indefinately. Better bearings, a better oil pump (there are a couple out there) and such. All that should be done.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:14 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illini_wrx View Post
He's going to come back here with a snapped axle with a

I just hope all the stuff this guy is saying here doesn't reflect poorly on Jorge or P&L... it really is a great shop

Snapped axles is a problem we should all be so lucky to have.

As far as P&L, every shop has motors blow. When you are making big power, things are GOING to break here and there, regardless of who puts it together, who tunes it and what brand you use. Its not always going to withstand the beating. It definately shouldnt reflect poorly on Jorge or P&L.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:15 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
If you want it bulletproof then you should probably stop buying pre "built" blocks. Get a bare block, take it to a real machine shop that builds race engines and have them measure and buy the correct pistons and machine the block for THOSE pistons, as well as fit the rings properly. I have yet to see any of the prebuilt "built" motors last on big power cars. Whereas the ones I have seen done right, seem to hold up pretty much indefinately. Better bearings, a better oil pump (there are a couple out there) and such. All that should be done.
To Ron's credit: I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he does. In fact, I think they use their own in-house piston, specially designed for their Axis motors?
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:30 AM   #54
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but the problem is that the factory blocks arent going to have exact bores every time.
They use CP pistons, I think they have them spec'd for their motors, but again, its not going to be the exact same bore every time. I am no professional engine builder, but I know that a real built motor takes more than grabbing 4 pistons off a shelf, and sticking them in a new block. I cant tell you for sure what else it entales (sp?) but I know it takes more than that to do it right. I dont doubt that Ron does more than just stuff pistons into holes, but I dont know how far he DOES go. One of us should start a new thread about it and ask for his input. Like a "what does it take to built a built motor RIGHT" thread.

I had an Axis motor in my 02 WRX (until I got hit head on ) and I will say that it was at LEAST twice as quiet as pretty much any other forged piston motor I have heard (short of the V7 STI motors) which tells me that there was a MUCH better fit between the pistons and cyl than most.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:04 AM   #55
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I would like to second every thing Defiant said!
Excellent post, and should be read by everyone before they mod their cars extensively.
I usually drive around town with my boost controller dialed back to near stock boost settings as I simply cannot use the power higher boost levels gives me.

The other issue many new folks fail to comprehend is that the real issue is power to weight ratio. Many of them are thinking of performance levels of cars where 400 whp is in a car that weighs close to 4000 lbs. Add the additional traction of AWD and 300 whp in the Subaru's will match up very well with some of these "higher powered" cars.

Even an experienced driver can scare the crap out of himself with 300 - 350 AWHP. You can have too much power for the street. (been there done that) It is no fun tip toeing around in a car that makes so much power you can never go full throttle, and if you do you have closing rates on other cars that are so high the other drivers have no clue what is happening.

It is a perscription for an accident, if the other driver glances in his rear view mirror and sees you just starting to pass and thinks oh heck I will pull out in front of him and pass to, by the time he completes his lane change and looks again you are going 100 mph and are 15 ft from his rear bumper.

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Old 11-24-2007, 05:44 AM   #56
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As a mod I think the worst thing I run into is when some one posts a valid point, in this case the OP, then others feel the need to nit pick and other wise be schmucks about the issues.

Seriously, outside from the old standard of Stop, Turn, then go Fast, this is a pretty good post on how to get fast. +1.

Oh... and I'm going to leave all posts as-is so those who replied as douchbags will always be douchbags. You know who you are.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:59 AM   #57
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....one thing I fail to see mentioned is that just modding the HP parts and not modding the chassis/brakes to handle that extra power---regardless of platform used......is a perfect recipie for disaster, as well.

These cars have NO POSSIBLE USE for '400whp' on stock brakes and suspension, especially the WRX

I can't count the pics of wrecked cars that I've seen that the poster has modded the crap outa the motor and when asked about the brakes/suspension the response is 'stock' or useless, pointless kiddie mods like s techs and CF this and CF that.....

It makes me want to puke every time I see these complete idiots spend $$,$$$ on motor and $0 on better brakes---or anything else needed to control that HP.

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Old 11-24-2007, 08:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ST-AIR View Post
^^ LOL Don't hate those that have money.

Looks like your the some kind of idiot with that comment you made quoted above

Maybe you should stick to slaying Hondas

You know as a NASIOC Guru you should be contributing to NASIOC not making dumb comments. Many of us look up to the few Guru's out there that help out. But hey it's the WWW and any any idiot with a PC can add their opinions.

I apologize Defiant Autospeed for going off in your thread.
Nah. I think hondaslayer hit the nail right on the head. What you're boasting about doesn't prove that you have money. It proves that you have no clue how to handle finances. If you had the money to drop $10k in mods on an STi, then why on earth would you have taken a 6 year loan on it? Do you just enjoy throwing money away?

People who can really afford to throw $10k motors into their $35k cars pay cash for the car and then go to town. People who can only afford the car with a six year loan shouldn't be modifying it, because they will always be upside down on the loan and can never unload the car once they get tired of throwing money at it.
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:15 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
Well over 300chp (it was SEVERLY under rated, by at least 50+hp) and a lighter platform? How do you figure the heavy 300hp usdm STI would have a prayer in hell?

I mean you can take a GC8, stick a JDM V7 motor in it, leave it bone stock, and you run 12.6's if you drive it right. And thats with a VF30. The 22B had a larger turbo, and was a 2.2L motor. CHP was more in the 350 range, not the 276 they claimed.

Even if it WAS 276, it was a far lighter car. 2800lbs. Thats over 500lbs lighter than the USDM STI. It would need only 250chp to equal the 300chp USDM sti.
But it wasnt 276. And it wasnt 300.
It was more power, and lighter than the USDM STI.

No way in any universe would a stock USDM STI be able to keep up.

And it skipad'd at .96G.. That means the USDM sti wouldnt be able to keep up in the twisties either.
Dave,

Sorry to break it to you but the 22B never made over 280hp, and the torque was even more pathetic (around 265 - 270 lb ft depending on your source)

0-60 is actually closer to a stock F-XT (5.2 -5.3 seconds) with the 1/4 coming by in the 13.4 - 13.6 second range trapping around 102 mph.

Having driven two different 22B's I can attest to those #'s via the butt dyno

The mythical 350hp # comes from several early magazines claiming it as such (the added low and mid-range punch from the 2.2 combined with a nicely matched turbo will do that ) but AFAIK not a single stock 22B has ever dynoed anything out of the ordinary.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:46 AM   #60
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Excellent thread - +3.1415... for sticky.
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:11 AM   #61
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I'm curious about the 22B's transmission. What's it like having shot-peened gears with a twin plate clutch?
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:12 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
Nah. I think hondaslayer hit the nail right on the head. What you're boasting about doesn't prove that you have money. It proves that you have no clue how to handle finances. If you had the money to drop $10k in mods on an STi, then why on earth would you have taken a 6 year loan on it? Do you just enjoy throwing money away?

People who can really afford to throw $10k motors into their $35k cars pay cash for the car and then go to town. People who can only afford the car with a six year loan shouldn't be modifying it, because they will always be upside down on the loan and can never unload the car once they get tired of throwing money at it.
Understood Chuck. I do not plan on ever unloading the car. I may have gotten a little defensive but I still don't see the logic in his comment.
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:39 AM   #63
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Great (original) post.

The only thing I have to add (and underscore) is the importance of driver training and getting to know your car. It's not nearly as expensive as you might think, it's a lot of fun, and it will help you to appreciate your vehicle more. And you likely can get a ride-along in a truly powerful and well-modded vehicle with a very experienced driver who will scare the piss out of you. Hell, even my dead stock 02 wagon can scare me! It's not a video game out there, you don't just hit "reset" to make your car come back to new! A STI is truly a performance bargain, and probably too much power for an inexperienced operator. I, too, look at the "I just took delivery of the STI and want to upgrade it" posts with , especially when it's obvious the new owner might be in high school or college, and can't possibly have ANY experience handling bad driving situations -- and their "experience" might only come from playing Grand Turismo.

In New England, the BMWCCA is open to all makes, and you can do a track day for ~$200 with an instructor in the seat next to you to help you out. Toss in about $200 for a helmet and you are good to go. When you are looking at spending thousands on mods, that's really small change. And it's the best way to enjoy the car. AutoX is even cheaper, but you don't get as much seat time -- but you can be a lot more aggressive with the car at the AutoX, then be humbled when a well-setup Miata or Mini takes the day
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:06 PM   #64
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I heart limerock park.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:11 PM   #65
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I wanted a little more oomph in my wrx, so i just went with headers, new up pipe, and a tbe and wow what a difference that made, and it was only 35+hp under ideal circumstances. I can't imagine what going from ~165 whp to 400whp would be like....what does one do with all that power?
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinadish View Post
I wanted a little more oomph in my wrx, so i just went with headers, new up pipe, and a tbe and wow what a difference that made, and it was only 35+hp under ideal circumstances. I can't imagine what going from ~165 whp to 400whp would be like....what does one do with all that power?
They DIAF when they slide into a ditch at 145 MPH

I enjoy my car now at approx. 300 WHp much more than I did when it was stock at around 250 (same dyno.) The real difference wasn't the amount of power, but the way the power was made. A smooth pull, with a wide powerband, and no more funky '07 STI throttle and hesitation issues. 400 WHp would be nice, but only if it stayed as drivable as it is now, which I doubt it would. Needless to say, having the car outlast the car payments is a goal of mine as well.

If I really wanted a 400 WHp monster, I'd have started from scratch with an abused and used '04-'05 STI with a blown block and built it with power in mind, rather than screw up my expensive daily driver.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:00 PM   #67
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This is a good thread indeed. I was one of those guys wanting 400whp until i found out they have 230 whp stock and the guy at the dealer took me for a ride. Good god we hit 80 and it didnt take long at all.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:40 PM   #68
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I run into the same thing all the time over at another car community dedicated to the high performance modification of the Z-series (240z-280zx) cars. You get these kids that ask "What do I need to do in order to get 300 to 400 whp?"

Do you have ANY idea what 300 whp is like in a rwd car that weighs 2400 lbs, has no traction control, no abs, no electronic crap of any kind, no air bags, etc.? Not to mention, modifying the hell out of the suspension and turning a car that is tuned to understeer into one that will snap oversteer if you look at it funny. Drive it stock first and take a ride or two in someone's car that is modified. It will help you better understand what exactly you are getting yourself into.

Yes, I do have a car that has 320+ whp/wtq. However, I highly respect the car because I know that it can kill me. I learned to "listen" to what the car is telling me through years of driving.

The same argument can be applied to ANY car that someone wants to modify.

Great thread.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:52 PM   #69
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What has yet to be mentioned is this, here's some perspective for the younger guys/ gals. I'm 39, when I was in my late teens and early 20's "fast" cars, in general, came with the type of power that 'base model' cars come with today. I had a very tricked out VW Rabbit GTI, with P&P head, intake, and throttle body, 10.5:1 pistons, cam and exhaust. My car was pushing 140hp and it weighed 1950 lbs with me in it, a much lower power to weight ratio than a WRX, let alone an STI. That's what I grew up with and learned how to drive. I thought I was a great driver back then. Until I clipped a deer, fish tailed multiple times, and slid off the road at 70 mph.
'83-'84 GTI's came with 90hp stock and were considered the hot hatch in that era.
FLASH FORWARD TODAY:
Your bone stock WRX makes 150% more power....STOCK!! Don't tell me todays youth don't do the same things we did back then. When you aren't expecting it, your car can get away from you MUCH MUCH more easily than you think and even when you are expecting it. How many cars do you see spin running an autox course?

Last edited by 575rider; 11-24-2007 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:22 PM   #70
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I think everyone needs to lay off the younger guys...or at least stop stereotyping all 18 year olds into bad drivers that have no idea what there doing. Some of us are smart and dont go out and kill kids in school zones...Some of us actually dont want tons of power...I get tired of reading every post hacking on teens...Sure there are alot of kids that do that...but not all, not all are asshats.


BTW...
Awesome post. Really shows whats needed and the side affects and most aspects of a higher hp build.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:39 PM   #71
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very good post..it realy changes my look on high performance cars.

+1 sticky
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Snips View Post
I think everyone needs to lay off the younger guys...or at least stop stereotyping all 18 year olds into bad drivers that have no idea what there doing. Some of us are smart and dont go out and kill kids in school zones...Some of us actually dont want tons of power...I get tired of reading every post hacking on teens...Sure there are alot of kids that do that...but not all, not all are asshats.


BTW...
Awesome post. Really shows whats needed and the side affects and most aspects of a higher hp build.
It's more of a generalization. Younger inexperienced drivers cause/have more accidents. You can't argue with statistics. There always were and always will be more responsible teens and the same can be said at every age group really. What's being pointed out is that as you get older you make different decisions, those decisions are being made based on past experiences. When it comes to cars I have much more control over my car today than I did 20 years ago, I won't keep my foot into as long as back then, I have a better understanding of the acceleration and velocity of my car today than back then, I'll get on the brakes sooner today, and so on. Experience cannot be taught. Cars are getting faster and faster but drivers don't become better drivers as technology advances. I've never met anyone that said 'I wish I was as naive and uneducated (not talking school) today as I was back then'. It's always 'I wish I knew then what I know now.'

Last edited by 575rider; 11-24-2007 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:48 AM   #73
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Great thread, I'm at 309whp and slowly climbing up the charts. but to jump from stock like i was to 400whp would have been a very big mistake.
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:36 AM   #74
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Great thread, I'm at 309whp and slowly climbing up the charts. but to jump from stock like i was to 400whp would have been a very big mistake.
My car is just shy of 300whp (Mustang dyno) and with the gearing of the car it is plenty quick, quicker than some of the big turbo STI that I have driven. The suspension is nearly sorted out (swapping the coilovers for a traditional strut / spring setup for a better ride and more ground clearance) brakes are done (STI lines and GrpN pads all around) so now what? Aesthetics I suppose. hate having the car paid off, now I can spend big money on mods and the wife sees the big bills
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:02 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 575rider View Post
What has yet to be mentioned is this, here's some perspective for the younger guys/ gals. I'm 39, when I was in my late teens and early 20's "fast" cars, in general, came with the type of power that 'base model' cars come with today. I had a very tricked out VW Rabbit GTI, with P&P head, intake, and throttle body, 10.5:1 pistons, cam and exhaust. My car was pushing 140hp and it weighed 1950 lbs with me in it, a much lower power to weight ratio than a WRX, let alone an STI. That's what I grew up with and learned how to drive. I thought I was a great driver back then. Until I clipped a deer, fish tailed multiple times, and slid off the road at 70 mph.
'83-'84 GTI's came with 90hp stock and were considered the hot hatch in that era.
FLASH FORWARD TODAY:
Your bone stock WRX makes 150% more power....STOCK!! Don't tell me todays youth don't do the same things we did back then. When you aren't expecting it, your car can get away from you MUCH MUCH more easily than you think and even when you are expecting it. How many cars do you see spin running an autox course?
This post was buried pretty quickly but I thought it should be seen by younger drivers to get a comparison of cars today versus what the "older" guys grew up with as cars to learn to drive in.
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