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Old 11-28-2007, 12:40 PM   #1
Kosmic
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Default DLC coating...does it worth the trouble and $$$?

I would like to start a DLC coating discussion and have some thoughts on the subject from you guys.

Using DLC coating.....does it worth the trouble and money?

Where would our Subaru engines gain by using that process?

I've read about everything here on NASIOC about the DLC but I would like to start a dedicated thread on the subject.

Here's a little description of the properties of DLC:

Benefits


* Wear and abrasion resistance
* Low Friction
* High Hardness



* Anti-reflective Coating
* Corrosion Resistance
* Gas Barrier
* Conformal Coating


Diamond-like carbon (DLC) is any of seven forms[1] of amorphous carbon materials that display some of the unique properties of natural diamond. They are usually applied as coatings to other materials that could benefit from some of those properties. All seven contain significant amounts of sp3 hybridized carbon atoms. The reason that there are different types is that even natural diamond can be found in two crystalline polytypes. The usual one has its carbon atoms arranged in a cubic lattice, while the very rare one (lonsdaleite) has a hexagonal lattice. By mixing these polytypes in various ways at the nanoscale level of structure, DLC coatings can be made that at the same time are amorphous, flexible, and yet purely sp3 bonded "diamond". The hardest, strongest, and slickest is such a mixture, known as tetrahedral amorphous carbon, or ta-C. For example a coating of only 2μm thickness of ta-C increases the resistance of common (i.e. type 304) stainless steel against abrasive wear; changing its lifetime in such service from one week to 85 years. Such ta-C can be considered to be the "pure" form of DLC, since it consists only of sp3 bonded carbon atoms. Fillers such as hydrogen, graphitic sp2 carbon, and metals are used in the other 6 forms to reduce production expenses, but at the cost of decreasing the service lifetimes of the articles being coated. The various forms of DLC can be applied to almost any material that is compatible with a vacuum environment. In 2006, the market for outsourced DLC coatings was estimated to be about 30,000,000 € in the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon

I asked for a quote on the rist pins and crank....it's not that expensive!!

NOTE: main and rod journals on the crank.
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Last edited by Kosmic; 11-28-2007 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:24 PM   #2
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Just make sure you got true ta-C DLC coatings, like from "Texas Diamond" or somesuch.

I've been dying to do like an entire engine ... not because it's really something worth the money ... but just for curiosity's sake, to see how much friction really ISN'T eliminated by the oiling system, and how much is truly metal on metal.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:30 AM   #3
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I'd like to do the same but with WPC and crygenic treatment of the motor as neither add weight as neither one is a coating but surface and metal treatment, respectively.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:18 AM   #4
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If I was going to the trouble to do my crank journals and wrist pins, I'd bother myself to do the camshaft journals+lobes, buckets, and a new set of wheel bearings as well
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:55 AM   #5
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I'm right there with you jblaine...my next motor I play on doing every surface, assuming the money's there
The block internals/specs and heads should be the same (unless I find something I don't like in testing...most likely will) so I should be able to see a rough gained power from reduced friction.
I'm expecting to block the sleeved shortblock apart the first go around for big power...the block was used and banged up and I installed the sleeves as a cheap test bed for how the internals functioned.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:09 PM   #6
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I'm doing a clean up of all my emails and founded this. Before I delete, I will post for whoever needs the infos.


From Diamonex Products.

"I am in receipt of your enquiry below. Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have been trying to get feedback from our production manager on this one. In general, we can coat offer following:

Wrist pins at $25 each.

Piston Tops – No bid. The ring land requirement makes this difficult. We would need to perform a lot of R&D and are not very confident in the success due to the narrow and sharp ring grooves

Crank journals (mains & rods) - We should be able to coat all journals in one run for $400 per run. We would need fixtures that would cost $1000".

Sales and Business Development Manager
Morgan Advanced Ceramics, Inc.
Diamonex Products & CVD Materials divisions


**NOTE** DLC/DIAMONDSHIELD coating 2 Ám thick. All dimensions for a USDM STI 2.5l.
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Old 05-15-2008, 09:21 AM   #7
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You wouldn't want it at, or above, the ring-lands. (excepting the oil ring area) In that area, you'd want to use a higher-temperature, high-hardness coating.

DLC, just like diamond, wouldn't survive near-combustion-temperature without reverting to graphite and/or burning in the presence of oxygen.

It's the skirts, pin, journals, and bores that are the best targets. Oil pumps, camshafts, and lifters/lifter-bores are also high on the list of high load friction areas.

p.s. Diamonex, as far as I know, is not a true ta-C DLC coating. But I'd have to double-check to be sure.
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:15 AM   #8
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What would the gain be with DLC coated oil pump?

Would I only need to make the inner and outer rotors DLC coated or would I need to coat the interior casing also?

I'm sending my piston rist pins get DLC coat in a month or two so if it worth it I might send the rotors also.




Last edited by Kosmic; 05-25-2008 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:23 PM   #9
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http://www.extremeion.com/

Is a company that I have used on lots of motorcycle suspension components for DLC, you need to speak with a guy named Rex if you call.
They are the guys that actually coat MANY if not all of the fork tubes for the TOP factory motocross teams in the AMA.
I have had great success with these guys and they are reasonably affordable.

That being said, wrist pins are a good idea, but i am not convinced that crank journals are worth it or even doable reliably.

Just about everything else in the engine relies on no metal to metal contact so the surface treatment would almost be worthless.

The reason these treatments work so well on motorcycle and car suspension is that the seals that retain the oil inside a motorcycle fork tube or shock body come in direct contact with the chrome tube and therefore the DLC keeps the tubes from scratching and then leaking. It also makes the surface harder so that when little rocks and chinks of debris come flying up and strike the tubes or shaft damage is minimized.

Cam bearing surfaces, buckets, wrist pins, valve stems and things like that will be good candidates for DLC, other stuff not so much.

Do some research and find out what the formula one guys to to those motors or better yet Nascar or Indy car where the engines are basically running wide open for long stretches at a time and you will find that ultra precise tolerances, high oil pressure, dry sump set ups (in crank splash engine designs like the American V8) are the point of higher focus, not DLC or Titanium Nitride.

I know Ron Shaver personally, in fact I had a Shaver Specialties prepared all aluminum small block in my 64 Buick Special convertible and I have watched how they put 850 HP Sprint Car engines together and there is not one DLC treated part on the entire engine.

Do some more research before you spend a lot of money on coatings that wont make too much of a difference.

If you want less rolling resistance, get your entire car including the transmission, wheel bearings and every roller or ball style bearing in the engine swapped out for ceramic bearings.......then run without seals where you can, like wheel bearings.

You would be blown away by how much of a difference there is in the wheel bearings alone.

I had a bike set up with ceramic wheel bearings and I could spin the wheel(s) and come back an hour later and the wheel would still be spinning.
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Old 05-26-2008, 06:45 AM   #10
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NASCAR uses DLC on the wrist pins I has also shown it works well on titanium valves to prevent metal transfer from the valve to the seat, and erosion, and impact damage to the valve seal face. It also increases valve stem life and valve guide wear is reduced. DLC is also used in some applications where people have problems with cam lobes and lifters getting wiped out under high spring pressures. Those are the areas that seem to have the best proven engine applications. Keep in mind the surface finish of the part is very important if it is rough when coated it makes for a very long lived file.

Larry
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Old 08-16-2008, 09:05 PM   #11
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I just recieved my Wiseco rist pins DLC coated and they are NICE!!

I have a few pics on my camera but my USB cable is FUBAR.

I will try to post them tomorrow.

Next, I might send my cam shafts (lobes) and buckets to be coated.
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Old 08-17-2008, 05:29 PM   #12
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I'd REM finish the oil pump.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:59 PM   #13
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Here's the pictures (bad photographer lol!)





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Old 08-19-2008, 09:43 PM   #14
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BTW, 3-5 μm thick for the DLC coating.

Job done at Morgan Advanced Ceramics - Diamonex products in Allentown PA.

Ref: Scott Fisher. He's a Subaru enthusiast (small world lol!) He'll take care of you.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
What type of DLC coating, if I might inquire? Is it a true ta-C DLC? Pure SP3 bond structure?
Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... " because I want all posts made on DLC coated Subaru parts to be viewed in this thread.

Last edited by Kosmic; 09-11-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmic View Post
Hi SaabTuner,

I asked the seller at Morgan Advanced Ceramics - Diamonex products and he told me that it was true DLC.

http://www.diamonex.com/

Here's the pictures of my rist pins DLC coated, end of thread.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&highlight=dlc

I'll be looking next to DLC coat the cam journals and lobes, buckets. Maybe.

What's expensive is the fixture to hold the part inside the DLC coating unit. I've been quote 1000$ for the crank fixture. I'll ask if I can fab my own fixtures.

Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... "
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
Excellent! Those look very nice. =)

hah It's funny. I leave NASIOC for a while, and when I start coming back more frequently, so many of the ideas I suggested quite some time ago, but didn't have the money to test, are being tried by others.

I guess I really should be "in the 'biz", since I seem to have some amount of foresight into what things will, at least eventually, be worth testing, or be successful. But, then, my doctors often say that and want me to practice medicine.

Ahh well, I just hope it works out really well for you. Anyone who knows me well will know that I make off-the-wall suggestions, but I'm also careful to state that I'm not claiming knowledge about if they work- merely asserting that they are worth trying, and that there's a high probability that they will work. Very different.

Make sure to keep us all posted on how well it revs!

-Adrian
Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... "
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosmic View Post
Will do.

I do read and listen to a few NASIOC members (observations/theories/hints) and you're one of them.
Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... "
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
Thanks. It's nice to know people are at least paying attention.

I try to put as much thought as possible into my posts, as well as information, to help further the advancement of these engines. I do sometimes feel like it's wasted effort, though.

Thanks for the reminder that it's not always just an academic exercise.

-Adrian

p.s. It's a shame we can't ta-C DLC coat the cylinder bores and piston skirts. Because most other coatings are too soft, and wear off, if the DLC coating stays on, it could seriously reduce friction there. That might free up a lot of power.

Also, don't forget the gears in your transmission. Those are prime targets for DLC coatings, as are the bearings, if they can be removed. Gear friction is a major source of transmission losses, and gear/bearing wear is usually the long-term tranny killer, if outright power doesn't kill it first.
Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... "
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
my only question with that would be thermal relationship. How hot would the gears then get?...would the coating keep them cooler (because of reduced friction) despite it shedding oil quicker?

I'm a fan of DLC and WPC treatments both...some for certain parts more than others.

and I think we all have a man crush on you, Adrian

Moved from my thread on "Min. clearances between..... "
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:17 PM   #21
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Well, you're one of those few also Micah.

BTW, I just sent an email concerning those fixtures to be fab by myself to save $$$. I will let you guys know their reply.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner


ta-C DLC conducts heat extremely well, for one thing. Secondly, every time I've seen research done with dry-film lubricants in transmissions, even those which do not conduct heat particularly well (and also shed oil), like MoS2, the gear temperatures always went down.

Since ta-DLC conducts heat so well, and lubricates extraordinarily well, it should be ideal for the job and should cause a decrease in gearbox temp, and transmission losses, with an increase in gearbox life.

Your wallet ... on the other hand ... may become terminally damaged.

-Adrian
Copied to save Kosmic the trouble now that I see he's been moving them here.
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:24 PM   #23
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it wears off

atleast it did on the fork tubes of motocross bikes and the shaft on the shocks..
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
it wears off

atleast it did on the fork tubes of motocross bikes and the shaft on the shocks..
The fork tubes are mostly TiN (titanium nitride) coated, which is a very good wear/low friction coating also. I didn't know that they were using DLC also. DLC coating pricing are going down, that's a good thing.

Suck to know it wears off tho!!
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:35 PM   #25
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well with dirt bike, like mt bike forks...they also get grit and grime on them that act like sand paper...
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