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Old 11-28-2007, 10:06 PM   #1
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default Why Is IAM Dropping/Low Without Knock?

OK, so I borrowed a Tactrix cable today to help me troubleshoot a CEL I was getting and to do some logging of stock before I start tuning the car myself. Turned out I had a vacuum leak, which was easy to spot and fix while watching fueling in real-time. However, I was also able to log IAM for the first time, and thank god I did before I started to try to tune this thing!

I have a very sick engine

BTW, THIS IS AN RS!

The car has 1/2 tank of 87 unleaded (which is what Subaru recommends). IAM after a reset started at 0.500 like it should have. There's no Vishnu trick for me, so I drove around a while to try to get it to rise. It peaked at 0.750 before beginning to fall. It fell to 0.368. It would then wobble up and down between 0.368 and 0.500, but it would never stay at 0.500. It eventually settled at 0.368 and stayed there.

In desperation, I stopped and bought a bottle of octane booster. After driving for a while with the booster in the 1/2 tank, the IAM jumped up to 0.625, then fell to 0.500, then to 0.468. It's now pegged on 0.468 and won't move.

Confusingly, I have two kinds of logs from tonight. I have one kind of log where it'll just knock away like crazy for sample after sample, pulling up to -2.1 degrees of Feedback Knock Correction without ever changing the IAM.

The other kind of log shows all 0s for Feedback Knock Correction, but the IAM wobbles up and down like it's drunk.

Does anyone have any idea how I should start attacking this problem?

Here's an example of a log showing lots of knock with no IAM change:
Code:
Time	g/rev	RPM	FB KC	FLKC	FLOfst	IAM	BaseT	IgTiAdv	IgnTot	KC Adv	g/s	Throttle(%)
84921	0.48	2916	0	0	33	0.438	41.94	0	42	0	23.17	17.25
85234	0.5	2905	0	0	33	0.438	40.54	0.29	40	0	24.33	17.65
85562	0.53	2916	0	0	33	0.438	40.35	0.37	39.5	0.5	25.56	18.04
85875	0.53	2898	0	0	33	0.438	37.57	1.04	37.5	0.5	25.65	18.04
86203	0.57	2907	0	0	33	0.438	36.44	1.34	36.5	1	27.99	19.22
86515	0.59	2895	0	0	33	0.438	33.81	1.95	34.5	1.5	28.64	19.61
86828	0.63	2906	0	0	33	0.438	33.54	2.02	34.5	2	30.37	20.39
87156	0.63	2894	0	0	33	0.438	33.59	2.05	34.5	2	30.47	20.39
87468	0.63	2907	0	0	33	0.438	33.69	2.01	34.5	2	30.15	20.78
87796	0.63	2893	0	0	33	0.438	32.97	2.18	34	2	29.5	20.39
88109	0.64	2906	0	0	33	0.438	31.34	2.55	33	2.5	31.12	21.18
88421	0.66	2897	0	0	33	0.438	31.44	2.55	33	2.5	30.69	20.78
88750	0.66	2913	0	0	33	0.438	32.33	2.3	33.5	2.5	31.65	21.18
89109	0.65	2905	0	0	33	0.438	30.79	2.68	32.5	2.5	31.22	20.78
89437	0.67	2911	0	0	33	0.438	31.57	2.48	33	2.5	32.18	21.18
89750	0.66	2906	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.62	2.77	31.5	1.5	31.54	21.18
90062	0.67	2909	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.79	2.66	31.5	1.5	32.28	21.57
90390	0.67	2912	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.41	2.78	31	1.5	32.18	21.57
90703	0.68	2902	-0.7	0	33	0.438	31.08	2.6	32	1.5	32.18	21.57
91031	0.67	2912	-0.7	0	34	0.438	31.19	2.64	32	2	32.18	21.57
91343	0.66	2908	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.21	2.84	31.5	2	31.43	21.18
91671	0.68	2904	-0.35	0	34	0.438	29.65	2.88	31	2	31.86	21.18
91984	0.69	2911	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.89	2.67	32	2.5	32.81	21.57
92312	0.67	2903	-0.35	0	34	0.438	29.92	2.86	31.5	2	31.54	21.18
92625	0.68	2915	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.47	2.73	31	2.5	32.39	21.57
92937	0.68	2904	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.32	2.8	31	1.5	32.39	21.57
93265	0.68	2915	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.79	2.7	31.5	1.5	32.28	21.57
93578	0.67	2906	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.88	2.61	32	1.5	31.65	21.18
93906	0.67	2917	-0.7	0	34	0.438	31.11	2.61	32	2	32.28	21.57
94218	0.67	2908	-0.7	0	34	0.438	31.07	2.57	32	2	31.54	21.18
94546	0.66	2918	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.98	2.62	32	2	31.65	21.18
94859	0.67	2910	-0.35	0	34	0.438	31.68	2.44	32.5	2	31.86	21.18
95171	0.66	2924	-0.35	0	33	0.438	32.37	2.32	33.5	2	30.69	20.78
95500	0.65	2921	-0.35	0	33	0.438	32.14	2.32	33	2	30.9	20.78
95781	0.65	2911	0	0	33	0.438	32.06	2.4	33.5	2.5	31.22	20.78
96078	0.65	2919	0	0	33	0.438	31.86	2.38	33	2.5	30.9	20.78
96406	0.66	2908	0	0	33	0.438	30.75	2.64	32.5	2.5	31.65	21.18
96718	0.67	2916	0	0	33	0.438	31.09	2.62	32.5	2.5	31.96	21.57
97046	0.67	2905	0	0	33	0.438	29.74	2.91	31.5	2.5	31.54	21.18
97359	0.68	2919	0	0	34	0.438	31.26	2.58	33	3	31.86	21.57
97687	0.66	2904	0	0	34	0.438	30.54	2.75	32	2.5	32.07	21.96
98046	0.67	2922	0	0	34	0.438	30.31	2.77	32	2.5	31.64	21.18
98375	0.68	2913	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.76	2.9	30.5	3	32.81	21.57
98687	0.69	2914	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.42	3.02	30.5	2	33.45	22.35
99015	0.69	2914	-1.05	0	34	0.438	28.51	3.13	29.5	2	32.49	21.96
99328	0.71	2905	-1.05	0	34	0.438	27.97	3.3	29	2	34.09	22.35
99640	0.71	2920	-0.7	0	34	0.438	28.74	3.11	30	2.5	33.98	22.35
99968	0.7	2908	-1.75	0	34	0.438	28.85	3.11	29	2.5	33.24	21.96
100281	0.7	2920	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.28	2.99	29.5	1.5	33.13	21.96
100593	0.69	2911	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.4	2.95	29.5	1	33.24	21.96
100921	0.69	2921	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.39	3	30	1	33.02	21.96
101234	0.69	2910	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.38	2.93	30	1.5	32.92	21.96
101562	0.69	2920	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.52	2.97	30	1.5	33.13	21.96
101875	0.69	2914	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.28	2.76	31	1.5	32.7	21.57
102187	0.68	2909	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.02	2.85	30.5	2	32.92	21.57
102515	0.68	2924	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.89	2.65	31.5	2	32.49	21.57
102828	0.67	2911	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.62	2.67	31.5	1.5	31.86	21.18
103156	0.68	2922	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.61	2.69	31.5	2	32.81	21.57
103468	0.67	2916	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.91	2.59	32	2	32.28	21.57
103781	0.67	2923	-0.7	0	34	0.438	30.21	2.77	31	2	31.96	21.18
104109	0.68	2926	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.69	2.66	32	2.5	32.49	21.57
104421	0.67	2917	-0.35	0	34	0.438	31.11	2.59	32	2.5	32.49	21.57
104750	0.67	2922	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.62	2.65	32	2	31.86	21.57
105062	0.67	2914	0	0	34	0.438	30.91	2.6	32.5	2.5	31.96	21.57
105375	0.67	2928	0	0	34	0.438	31.15	2.55	32.5	2.5	31.86	21.18
105687	0.67	2920	0	0	34	0.438	32.02	2.38	33.5	2.5	32.17	21.18
106015	0.65	2930	0	0	33	0.438	32.29	2.29	33.5	2.5	31.32	20.78
106328	0.65	2926	0	0	33	0.438	31.63	2.44	33	2.5	31.54	21.18
106656	0.66	2922	0	0	33	0.438	32.05	2.33	33.5	2.5	31.86	21.18
106968	0.65	2931	0	0	33	0.438	32.69	2.2	34	2.5	31.22	20.78
107296	0.65	2922	0	0	33	0.438	32.98	2.11	34	2	31.22	20.78
107609	0.64	2924	0	0	33	0.438	33.88	1.96	35	2	30.79	20.78
107921	0.63	2930	-1.05	0	33	0.438	33.12	2.05	33	2	30.14	20.78
108250	0.64	2920	-1.05	0	33	0.438	32.62	2.18	32.5	1	30.79	20.78
108562	0.65	2934	-1.05	0	33	0.438	34.28	1.88	34	1	30.79	20.39
108937	0.62	2932	-0.7	0	33	0.438	34.14	1.84	34	0.5	29.6	20
109250	0.62	2921	-0.7	0	33	0.438	34.35	1.85	34.5	1	29.82	20.39
109562	0.62	2932	-0.7	0	33	0.438	35.88	1.46	35.5	1	29.06	20
109890	0.6	2923	-0.35	0	33	0.438	35.99	1.49	36	1	29.28	20
110203	0.59	2932	-0.35	0	33	0.438	36.02	1.42	36	1	27.77	19.22
110531	0.6	2930	-0.35	0	33	0.438	35.18	1.6	35.5	1	29.06	20
110812	0.61	2923	0	0	33	0.438	35.35	1.58	36	1.5	29.28	20
111125	0.61	2930	0	0	33	0.438	35.4	1.59	36	1.5	28.96	20
111437	0.61	2920	-1.05	0	33	0.438	34.59	1.73	34	1.5	29.39	20
111750	0.62	2921	-1.05	0	33	0.438	35.07	1.67	34.5	0.5	29.6	20
112062	0.61	2929	-1.05	0	33	0.438	34.52	1.76	34	0.5	29.5	20
112390	0.62	2913	-0.7	0	33	0.438	33.48	2	33.5	0.5	29.93	20.39
112703	0.64	2918	-0.7	0	33	0.438	32.81	2.19	33	1.5	30.58	20.78
113031	0.64	2909	-0.7	0	33	0.438	32.66	2.19	33	1.5	30.68	20.78
113343	0.65	2919	-0.35	0	33	0.438	32.36	2.31	33.5	1.5	31.22	20.78
113656	0.65	2908	-0.35	0	33	0.438	32.41	2.24	33.5	2	30.68	20.78
113984	0.65	2918	-0.35	0	33	0.438	32.25	2.32	33	2	31.01	20.78
114296	0.65	2910	0	0	33	0.438	32.23	2.35	33.5	2	31.01	20.78
114625	0.65	2911	0	0	33	0.438	32.01	2.38	33.5	2.5	31	20.78
114937	0.65	2920	0	0	33	0.438	32.12	2.32	33.5	2.5	31.22	20.78
115250	0.65	2908	0	0	33	0.438	31.38	2.51	33	2.5	31.22	20.78
115578	0.66	2916	-1.05	0	33	0.438	31.36	2.53	31.5	2.5	31.96	21.18
115890	0.66	2907	-1.05	0	33	0.438	31.09	2.58	31.5	1.5	31.43	21.18
116203	0.67	2918	-2.1	0	33	0.438	30.67	2.69	30	1.5	31.75	21.57
116578	0.67	2907	-2.1	0	33	0.438	30.33	2.74	30	0.5	31.96	21.57
116890	0.67	2919	-2.1	0	34	0.438	31.47	2.52	31	0.5	31.96	21.57
117218	0.66	2909	-1.75	0	34	0.438	31.49	2.48	31	0.5	31.43	21.18
117531	0.66	2921	-1.75	0	33	0.438	31.9	2.41	31.5	1	31.85	21.18
117843	0.65	2914	-1.75	0	33	0.438	32.38	2.22	31.5	0.5	31.22	20.78
118171	0.65	2908	-1.4	0	33	0.438	31.84	2.41	32	0.5	31.54	20.78
118484	0.66	2920	-1.4	0	33	0.438	32.07	2.36	32	1	31.64	20.78
118812	0.65	2910	-1.4	0	33	0.438	31.6	2.44	31.5	1	31.43	20.78
119125	0.66	2920	-1.05	0	33	0.438	31.07	2.61	31.5	1	32.07	21.57
119437	0.67	2911	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.59	2.67	31	1.5	31.96	21.57
119765	0.67	2915	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.18	2.82	31	1.5	31.75	21.57
120078	0.68	2909	-1.05	0	33	0.438	30.82	2.64	31.5	2	32.49	21.57
120406	0.67	2917	-0.7	0	33	0.438	30.63	2.71	31.5	2	31.64	21.18
120718	0.67	2924	-0.7	0	33	0.438	30.86	2.63	31.5	2	31.11	21.57
121031	0.67	2906	-0.7	0	33	0.438	30.81	2.68	31.5	2	31.85	21.18
121359	0.67	2921	-0.35	0	33	0.438	31.22	2.53	32.5	2	32.07	21.57
121671	0.66	2908	-0.35	0	33	0.438	30.71	2.66	32	2	31.22	21.18
121984	0.67	2917	-0.35	0	33	0.438	30.61	2.71	32	2.5	32.28	21.57
122328	0.67	2913	0	0	33	0.438	31.25	2.52	33	2	31.54	21.18
122640	0.66	2919	0	0	33	0.438	31.08	2.58	32.5	2.5	31.75	21.18
122953	0.67	2906	0	0	33	0.438	30	2.81	32	2.5	32.28	21.57
123281	0.68	2919	0	0	34	0.438	30.15	2.81	32	3	32.38	21.57
123593	0.68	2913	0	0	34	0.438	29.93	2.83	31.5	3	32.49	21.57
123921	0.68	2920	0	0	34	0.438	29.86	2.89	31.5	3	32.49	21.57
124234	0.68	2918	0	0	34	0.438	29.83	2.89	31.5	3	32.28	21.57
124562	0.68	2906	0	0	34	0.438	29.16	3.09	31	3	32.91	21.96
124875	0.69	2914	0	0	34	0.438	28.36	3.21	30.5	3	32.91	21.96
125187	0.7	2904	0	0	34	0.438	27.01	3.47	29.5	3	33.66	22.35
125515	0.73	2917	0	0	34	0.438	27.29	3.46	29.5	3.5	35.01	23.14
125828	0.72	2906	0	0	34	0.438	26.3	3.65	29	3.5	34.08	22.75
126140	0.74	2914	0	0	34	0.438	25.92	3.8	28.5	4	35.49	23.14
126453	0.74	2910	0	0	34	0.438	26.64	3.6	29.5	4	34.77	23.53
126781	0.73	2918	0	0	34	0.438	26.9	3.58	29.5	3.5	34.89	23.14
127093	0.73	2911	-1.05	0	34	0.438	26.7	3.58	28	3.5	34.89	22.75
127421	0.73	2922	-1.05	0	34	0.438	27.51	3.44	29	2.5	34.53	22.75
127734	0.72	2914	-1.05	0	34	0.438	28.11	3.25	29.5	2.5	34.31	22.35
128046	0.71	2914	-0.7	0	34	0.438	28.63	3.14	30	2	33.45	22.35
128375	0.7	2922	-0.7	0	34	0.438	28.47	3.14	30	2.5	33.66	22.35
128687	0.71	2916	-0.7	0	34	0.438	28.19	3.24	29.5	2.5	33.98	22.35
129000	0.71	2928	-0.35	0	34	0.438	28.96	3.1	30.5	2.5	33.97	22.35
129328	0.7	2918	-0.35	0	34	0.438	28.68	3.11	30.5	2.5	33.34	22.35
129640	0.7	2924	-0.35	0	34	0.438	28.62	3.15	30.5	3	33.55	21.96
129953	0.7	2924	-0.35	0	34	0.438	28.72	3.11	30.5	3	33.55	21.96
130281	0.7	2913	0	0	34	0.438	28.78	3.07	31	3	33.44	21.96
130609	0.7	2927	0	0	34	0.438	29.53	2.95	31.5	3	33.55	22.35
130921	0.69	2917	0	0	34	0.438	29.27	2.97	31.5	3	33.02	21.96
131234	0.69	2926	0	0	34	0.438	29.47	2.95	31.5	3	32.91	21.57
131562	0.69	2918	0	0	34	0.438	30.08	2.79	32	3	32.7	21.57
131875	0.67	2920	0	0	34	0.438	30.4	2.72	32	2.5	31.85	21.57
132187	0.68	2932	0	0	34	0.438	30.69	2.66	32.5	2.5	32.28	21.57
132515	0.67	2920	0	0	34	0.438	30.55	2.63	32	2.5	32.28	21.57
132828	0.68	2928	0	0	34	0.438	30.37	2.72	32	2.5	32.28	21.57
133156	0.68	2916	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.1	2.78	31	1.5	32.7	21.57
133468	0.68	2918	-1.05	0	34	0.438	30.38	2.78	31	1.5	32.49	21.57
133781	0.68	2930	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.93	2.86	30.5	1.5	32.59	21.57
134109	0.68	2921	-0.7	0	34	0.438	29.93	2.8	31	1.5	32.59	21.57
134421	0.68	2928	-0.7	0	34	0.438	29.59	2.89	31	2	32.81	21.57
134750	0.69	2917	-0.7	0	34	0.438	29.57	2.91	30.5	2	32.81	21.57
135062	0.69	2915	-0.35	0	34	0.438	29.33	2.96	31	2	32.91	21.57
135390	0.69	2928	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.09	2.84	31.5	2.5	33.12	21.96
135703	0.68	2916	-0.35	0	34	0.438	30.11	2.77	31.5	2.5	32.49	21.57
136015	0.68	2924	0	0	34	0.438	29.71	2.92	31.5	2.5	32.7	21.57
136390	0.68	2915	0	0	34	0.438	29.58	2.9	31.5	3	32.7	21.57
136703	0.69	2927	0	0	34	0.438	29.74	2.9	31.5	3	32.7	21.96
137031	0.69	2916	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.54	2.88	30.5	3	33.02	21.57
137343	0.69	2916	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.53	2.92	30.5	2	33.02	21.57
137656	0.69	2924	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.36	2.99	29	1	33.12	21.96
137984	0.69	2915	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.15	3	29	1	32.91	21.96
138296	0.69	2925	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.74	2.89	29.5	1	33.02	21.96
138625	0.68	2913	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.67	2.89	30	0.5	32.81	21.57
138937	0.69	2916	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.6	2.91	30	1	32.81	21.57
139250	0.69	2927	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.25	2.75	30	1	32.7	21.57
139578	0.68	2914	-1.4	0	34	0.438	30.05	2.81	30.5	1	32.81	21.57
139890	0.68	2926	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.47	2.96	30	1.5	32.59	21.57
140218	0.69	2917	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.55	2.91	30	1.5	32.7	21.96
140531	0.69	2925	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.45	2.93	29.5	1.5	32.7	21.57
140812	0.69	2924	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.76	2.86	29.5	1	32.7	21.96
141109	0.68	2920	-2.1	0	34	0.438	30.28	2.75	30	0.5	32.49	21.96
141437	0.68	2924	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.64	2.9	29.5	0.5	32.49	21.57
141750	0.69	2918	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.33	2.74	30.5	1	32.59	21.57
142062	0.68	2926	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.5	2.71	30.5	1	32.59	21.57
142390	0.68	2921	-2.8	0	34	0.438	31.09	2.57	30	1	32.81	21.57
142703	0.67	2918	-2.8	0	34	0.438	30.19	2.77	29	0	32.28	21.57
143031	0.68	2929	-2.8	0	34	0.438	30.38	2.76	29.5	0	32.17	21.57
143343	0.68	2920	-2.45	0	34	0.438	30.52	2.66	29.5	0	32.06	21.57
143656	0.68	2930	-2.45	0	34	0.438	30.71	2.67	30	0.5	32.38	21.57
144031	0.67	2926	-2.45	0	34	0.438	30.15	2.78	29.5	0	31.96	21.57
144343	0.68	2920	-2.45	0	34	0.438	30.96	2.59	30	0.5	32.06	21.57
144671	0.67	2926	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.99	2.8	29.5	0.5	32.28	21.57
144984	0.68	2914	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.48	2.93	29.5	0.5	32.81	21.96
145312	0.69	2922	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.32	2.98	29	1	32.7	21.57
145625	0.69	2916	-1.75	0	34	0.438	29.63	2.91	29.5	1	32.81	21.96
145953	0.69	2925	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.1	2.8	30	1	32.7	21.57
146265	0.68	2924	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.61	2.67	30.5	1	32.49	21.57
146578	0.68	2916	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.94	2.87	30.5	1	32.7	21.57
146890	0.68	2923	-1.4	0	34	0.438	30.11	2.81	30.5	1.5	32.49	21.57
147218	0.68	2913	-1.4	0	34	0.438	29.92	2.82	30.5	1.5	32.49	21.57
147531	0.68	2921	-1.05	0	34	0.438	29.33	3	30	1.5	32.7	21.57
147859	0.69	2916	-2.1	0	34	0.438	29.8	2.85	29.5	1	32.81	21.96
148171	0.68	2916	-2.1	0	34	0.438	30.06	2.78	29.5	0.5	32.81	21.96
148484	0.68	2924	-2.1	0	34	0.438	30.38	2.75	30	1	32.81	21.96
148812	0.68	2914	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.31	2.76	30	0.5	31.96	21.57
149125	0.68	2928	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.34	2.76	30.5	1	32.59	21.57
149453	0.68	2920	-1.75	0	34	0.438	30.61	2.66	30.5	1	32.49	21.57
149765	0.67	2926	-1.4	0	34	0.438	30.58	2.69	31	1	32.38	21.57
150078	0.68	2927	-1.4	0	34	0.438	30.78	2.65	31	1.5	32.49	21.57
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Last edited by williaty; 11-28-2007 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:08 PM   #2
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Here's an example of the IAM fluctuating without knock:
Code:
Time	g/rev	RPM	FB KC	FLKC	FLOfst	IAM	BaseT	IgTiAdv	IgnTot	KC Adv	g/s	Throttle(%)
381855	1.04	2656	0	0	28	0.5	10.12	6.5	15.5	6.5	47.35	100
382183	1.04	2660	0	0	28	0.5	10.13	6.5	15.5	6.5	48.2	100
382496	1.04	2652	0	0	28	0.5	9.79	6.5	15.5	6.5	47.05	100
382824	1.05	2662	0	0	28	0.5	10.1	6.5	17	6.5	48.06	100
383121	1.05	2666	0	0	28	0.625	10.16	8.13	17	8	48.05	100
383480	1.05	2672	0	0	28	0.625	10.17	8.13	17	8	48.06	100
383808	1.04	2678	0	0	28	0.625	10.47	8.13	17.5	8	47.35	100
384121	1.03	2695	0	0	28	0.625	10.44	8.13	17.5	8	47.78	100
384449	1.04	2692	0	0	28	0.625	10.47	8.13	17.5	8	48.35	100
384746	1.04	2716	0	0	28	0.625	10.45	8.13	17.5	8	49.78	100
385043	1.04	2712	0	0	28	0.625	10.31	7.32	16.5	8	48.05	100
385355	1.04	2745	0	0	28	0.562	10.32	7.32	16.5	7.5	48.62	100
385683	1.04	2755	0	0	28	0.562	10.62	6.5	16	7.5	49.48	100
385996	1.04	2777	0	0	28	0.5	10.67	6.5	16	6.5	49.62	100
386324	1.04	2800	0	0	36	0.5	10.57	6.5	16	6.5	49.92	100
386636	1.05	2816	0	0	36	0.5	10.46	6.5	16	6.5	50.85	100
386949	1.05	2835	0	0	36	0.5	18.47	5.11	23.5	6.5	49.62	61.96
387277	0.81	2852	0	0	35	0.438	42.44	0	42.5	5	32.51	21.18
387590	0.42	2850	0	0	33	0.438	42.99	0	43	0	16.68	13.33
387918	0.24	2832	0	0	33	0.438	42.92	0	43	0	10.44	9.8
388230	0.2	2807	0	0	33	0.438	37.15	0	37	0	9.57	9.41
388543	0.17	2780	0	0	33	0.438	31.49	0	31.5	0	8.04	8.24
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:27 PM   #3
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I've been out of the subbie scene for a long time. So I have no clue what I'm talking about but here's a few things to think about.

When octane booster says something like "Raises octane up to 7 points", it means your fuel went from 87 to 87.7. So the octane booster might be pointless. On your next tank, put some 93 in and log again.

I'm not sure what you logging with (Enginuity?) and I'm unfamiliar with any of the current loggers. But from loggers I've used long, long again, it was easy for them to miss knock events. Knock events occur during a single revolution. I'm assuming the time is in milliseconds. If you look at time 385043 your IAM is at 0.562. The next log occurs at 385355 and your IAM is at 0.500. If those are milliseconds, that's over 300 milliseconds between logs. During that time at roughly 2,700 RPM, your engine completed 810 revolutions, each one of which had the potential for a knock event.

Anyone know if a knock event occurs between log entries if it is somehow "saved" until the log occurs?
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:32 PM   #4
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1) Yeah, my gf (she's a physicist) and I just talked over the probable increase in octane from the booster and realized I was a dumbass and got ripped. It would have made a much bigger difference had I gone to the gas station and put 8 gallons of 93/premium in.

2) Logging with Enginuity. I had thought any time you had knock it was showed up as Feedback Knock Correction until a delay counter cycled through. In other words, I thought ALL knock would be shown in some manner, even if it was caught between cycles

OK, so obviously, I have a severe knock problem on an entirely stock engine. Hopefully, I haven't spent the last 60k miles slowly blowing my engine up, but I do remember this sound even when the car was new.

Short of tuning timing out of the car, what do I look at to make the engine happier mechanically?
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:44 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
... I had thought any time you had knock it was showed up as Feedback Knock Correction until a delay counter cycled through. In other words, I thought ALL knock would be shown in some manner, even if it was caught between cycles
You may be right. Like I said, take what I said with a grain of salt as I'm not familiar with any of the current logging solutions. Back when I was logging on my WRX with a very early UTEC, knock events between logs would not show up.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:58 PM   #6
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Well assuming it is knock causing your problem... If it was my car and it had 60,000 on the clock...

I'd try gas from another station.

I'd probably run some good fuel injector cleaner through a couple tanks (Chevron is supposed to be one of the best).

I'd consider cleaning my MAF sensor (I believe you can use non-chlorinated brake cleaner).

Assuming everything else was mechanically correct, I'd start wondering about my O2 sensor.

I doubt it's the problem, but you might also want to change your spark-plugs if you haven't. On my jeep liberty, the electrodes are nearly gone by 30,000 miles. I always wondered when the electrode gets worn away like that if what's left gets a bit pointy if it could cause enough of a hot spot to cause detonation.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:01 PM   #7
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Put some good 91-93 in it & see what happens. Anything higher than 87.

I know that some the of the 2.5L turbo engines have negative KC corrections during low load times(even though there is no knock), but I've had no experience w/ the NA engines.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:10 PM   #8
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Also when the ECU goes into IAM re-evaluation mode it will not report feedback correction from knock until after it has settled on a IAM value and knocked again.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:26 PM   #9
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1) Over the years, I've tried gas from a number of stations. To at least some extent, they all caused the sound I now know is knock.

2) I've been running Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner through it once per oil change for the last 2 changes and will continue the pattern in the future

3) I've recently cleaned the MAF sensor with CRC MAF Sensor Cleaner

4) Plugs were changed at 30k, factory service schedule says not to change them until 60k. Obviously, being within spitting distance of 60k, they're about to be replaced again

5) It's only 10:30 here, I have about half a tank in it. I think I'm going to go out and just drive around in circles in the country until I run out of gas and then fill it with some Shell 93

Master, thanks for bringing that up, it helps to explain what I'm seeing.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:04 AM   #10
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OK, I just went out for a drive to try to run some gas out of it so tomorrow I can fill up with high-test. My car is officially insane. Tomorrow, I'll post some logs showing what's going on, but the basics of it are that the car likes being beaten on and dislikes cruising. I went out on a section of road that is mostly cruise with a few stretches of mild twisties on it. It held constant at IAM=0.469 throughout the cruise sections. I wasn't logging because I wasn't expecting anything to happen. After the mild twisties, I looked down and IAM=0.709! WTF?!?! It held at 0.709 for a while until I got to a road with hardcore, full on, maximum attack twisties. Truly flogging the crap out of the motor, redlining every shift, hanging on the motor at high RPM through the corners, etc. When I popped out onto level ground again, the IAM was at 0.969! As soon as I settled back into a relaxed cruise and had a few small throttle movements, the IAM dropped (as did my spirits) to 0.870.

In other words, I beat the **** out of the car and the IAM goes up, I drive like a normal person and IAM goes down. What the heck is going on and should I try higher octane fuel tomorrow or not?
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:36 AM   #11
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run proper fuel
and log intake air temp as well
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:00 AM   #12
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Feedback correction is disabled first before a change to the IAM (rough correction) or to the fine correction table is being made (IAM and fine correction adjustment (NOT application) cannot occur at the same time as well).

It is best to think of the three elements of change to knock correction (rough correction learning, feedback correction ,fine correction table adjustment) as individual modes. Only one mode is active at any given time based on a set of specific conditions, not specifically (solely) based on the values of each element.

Since you are the first to log the IAM/feedback correction of an NA model with OpenECU (test version of the next Enginuity logger def update), there's still a lot to be learned about what is normal with these cars. I'd be curious to see what it does with 93 octane.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:49 PM   #13
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I've not logged it in motion, but our other RS is an 06. After discovering how badly my car appears to be running, I plugged into the 06 while idling in the driveway. Her IAM was a 938. It's also never made the sounds I associate now with knock. I've got a scooby meet tomorrow night, I may try to log any other RS that shows up.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:17 PM   #14
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my buddy the tech says that due to piston size on your subaru and the fact that subarus have huge amounts of timing to begin with, you should never run 87, probably only 91 at the lowest.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:33 PM   #15
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Interesting. I've always kind of been surprised you can get away with 87. On the other hand, we just logged our 06 2.5i, and on 87 it's got a rock steady 0.938 IAM. Still too far away from 100 for comfort, but it suggests that 87 is closer to realistic for it. I really want to find another 05 RS to log now to see if it acts like mine does.

Another interesting tidbit is that the 06es don't run stupid rich like the 05s do. We'd all thought the extra HP in 06 was due to the EL headers, but the 06 tends to run at rich best torque, which should make it quite a bit more powerful than the 05, which goes WAY WAY WAY rich of RBT.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
we just logged our 06 2.5i, and on 87 it's got a rock steady 0.938 IAM. Still too far away from 100 for comfort
The range of the IAM is 0 to 1. It is a multiplier.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:08 PM   #17
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...? Yes?

Sorry, I'm just not sure why you said that. The only thing I see wrong with what I said is that I forgot the decimal point (1.000 not 1000). What am I missing?
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
...? Yes?

Sorry, I'm just not sure why you said that. The only thing I see wrong with what I said is that I forgot the decimal point (1.000 not 1000). What am I missing?
If the advance map called for a maximum of 8 degrees of correction, then an IAM of .938 would result in about 7.5 degrees which would not be "too far away for comfort". It is best to think of rough correction as the ECU's method for roughly correcting the advance quantity based on the quality of gas (assuming no mechanical issues). Some tuners, however, are under the impression that if the IAM is not 1 all the time, then their motor is slowly knocking itself to death which is not necessarily a correct view on things.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:50 PM   #19
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Ah, I too was under the impression that if IAM!=1 then the engine was knocking frequently enough to be harmful to the motor. So is getting IAM=1 a good goal? If 1 isn't necessary, what's a good level to keep it above?
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Ah, I too was under the impression that if IAM!=1 then the engine was knocking frequently enough to be harmful to the motor. So is getting IAM=1 a good goal? If 1 isn't necessary, what's a good level to keep it above?
It's all relative to your gas quality which can vary by station and across the country (not all gas has the same knock resistance even if they have the same octane rating) as well as the mechanical condition of your car, your mods and the tune. For a completely stock car on the factory unmodified ECU and assuming perfect maintenance/mechancal condition, then the IAM would fluctuate depending on the quality of the gas. An NA Subaru is designed to run on 87 octane, however, at this point we do not know what Subaru's strategy was as it pertains to higher octane fuel being used. Is the base + advance max maps setup to allow for additional timing if the user fills up with higher octane fuel? With turbo models, generally speaking, because they require premium fuel, and IAM close to or near max (1) is for high octane fuel, an IAM near the middle (0.5) corresponds to mid-octane fuel (ex. 89) and an IAM near 0 corresponds to low-octane fuel (<87). That is, the base timing map is designed to be the maximum amount of timing, without knock, with low-octane gas.

So, yes, in your case, a low IAM that is fluctuating is probably indicative of a problem (lower than the IAM reset value of 0.5). But with your friend, who might be sitting in the higher range, but not quite 1, it is perfectly acceptable.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:48 PM   #21
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I ran a test map on a 700 mile trip and IAM stuck at 0.738 (initial was set to 0.8) after the first 100 miles (after LTFT settled). Car ran fine, it learned to advance timing in some areas (FLKC) and pull timing in others (FLKC). After it had "learned" fuel trims and timing, the car rarely had any FBKC and the FLKC stayed pretty much the same.

Constantly resetting your ECU if your IAM likes to stay at something less than 1 can cause accelerated wear as each time you do a reset, the ECU will move the multiplier in steps, either up or down depending on presence or absence of knock. So say your car liked to run at an IAM of 0.688. The car runs just fine, it hardly knocks, but when you do a reset, your ECU will do something like this (assuming starting IAM was 0.5):

From a reset:
0.5->0.75->1.0->0.5->0.75->0.625->0.688

Valid step values are:
|0.25| , |0.125| , |0.0625|

0.0625 is the lowest and last step value the ECU uses to "lock in" an IAM value. Also remember that the step value can be positive or negative depending upon knock and that this happens very fast, you cannot catch all of the steps in the logger.

Sometimes you can catch part of this happenning while logging however. The ECU starts with .25 steps and either moves up or down depending on knock. Each time IAM changes direction, the step value is halved. So in essence it is exactly like the 16 bit ECUs which use an integer value (low 1, high 16, starting step value is 4, min is 1).

After IAM is "settled" (unless it is at it's MAX value, 1 for 32 bit ECUs), you will see some positive FLKC and (more than likely) some negative FLKC. The engine will then exhibit real knock less often.

The IAM will also re-evaluate if FLKC grows more positive (or negative) and reaches it's threshhold (and other condtions that have to be met) to do a re-evaluation (say you put in 94 octane instead of 91 this fill up). Then (since you have no knock for an extended period and FLKC grows positive), the process repeats and your IAM should end up landing at a higher value. The triggers to lower or raise IAM are the same (absolute values are used).

This is one of the more confusing areas that people have trouble understanding. Setup correctly (you can defeat it if you want to), the Subaru knock control system works very well. My car has audibly pinged only a few times (I can count them on my hand). FLKC caught the ping and learned -2.8 degrees (FLKC) in that zone almost instantly (1.5 seconds probably).

When tuning, you want to aim for an IAM of 1 with little FLKC.

Gabe

Last edited by gabedude; 12-01-2007 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Fixed for correctness
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
Valid step values are:
|0.25| , |0.125| , |0.0625|

0.0625 is the lowest and last step value the ECU uses to "lock in" an IAM value. Also remember that the step value can be positive or negative depending upon knock and that this happens very fast, you cannot catch all of the steps in the logger.

Sometimes you can catch part of this happenning while logging however. The ECU starts with .25 steps and either moves up or down depending on knock. The next time the code is executed, the step value is halved.
The step value is halved each time the IAM changes direction during a session, not each execution, with the session ending after a step value of 0.0625 is applied or when the IAM stays at one of the extremes for a slight period of time.

Quote:
The IAM will also re-evaluate if FLKC grows more positive and reaches it's threshhold to do a re-evaluation (say you put in 94 octane instead of 91 this fill up). Then (since you have no knock for an extended period and FLKC grows positive), the process repeats and your IAM should end up landing at a higher value.
It should be noted that the fine learning correction thresholds are only one of several conditions that must be met.
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:41 AM   #23
williaty
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OK, so I like to repeat things back in different words to make sure I understand what the person meant me to understand. This is kind of a composite of what's been said here plus in email.

Rough correction to timing is made with IAM. When the conditions are met for IAM evaluation, the car will alter IAM up and down in alternating directions with decreasing step size until it "settles" on a value that represents as much advance as it can get without knock. The car will then use another evaluation mode to populate the Fine Learning table. FLKC can be positive or negative. If a certain number of cells reach a trigger value, and other conditions are met, the car will return to IAM evaluation mode and the process will begin all over again.

OK, if the above is correct, then I have some questions.

1) If the car is in a mode where it isn't evaluating IAM (in other words, in the finer evaluation mode), how does Feedback KC fit into the picture? Does the repeated occurrance of FBKC in a particular cell eventually get transferred into the FLKC map? Does the FLKC map have a mode all of it's own?

2) If FLKC can be positive or negative, is it possible to end up at the same total timing with a low IAM and positive FLKC as at a higher IAM but negative FLKC?

3) Specific to my current difficulties, with 87 octane I had an IAM of .875 and was seeing prolonged periods (seconds in length) of line after line of FBKC which was audible inside the cabin. Would this have eventually been eliminated as the FLKC table was filled in with negative values in the knocking cells?

4) Again specific to my current case, I switched to 93 octane this morning. While driving the same roads at the same intensity, I still had an IAM of .875 (which I now understand why based on your post above) but had no instances of FBKC and no audible knocking sound. Will the car eventually fill in the FLKC with positive values until I again begin to see lots of FBKC?

5) Again, in my case, considering the conditions in questions 3 and 4, does this indicate that it would be safer for the health of my engine to run higher octane fuel?


Thanks for your time and the knowledge guys, I REALLY appreciate it.
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:42 AM   #24
gabedude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
The step value is halved each time the IAM changes direction during a session, not each execution, with the session ending after a step value of 0.0625 is applied or when the IAM stays at one of the extremes for a slight period of time.
That makes more sense and corresponds to the logs. I was going from memory from your writeup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
It should be noted that the fine learning correction thresholds are only one of several conditions that must be met.
I swore when I made that post that I mentioned "other factors that must be met as well for a trigger to occur", but I was in a hurry.

Anyway, people just need to know that an IAM of less than 1 (16 on 16 bit ECUs) does not mean it is knocking (like you said in your post).
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:49 AM   #25
gabedude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
OK, so I like to repeat things back in different words to make sure I understand what the person meant me to understand. This is kind of a composite of what's been said here plus in email.

Rough correction to timing is made with IAM. When the conditions are met for IAM evaluation, the car will alter IAM up and down in alternating directions with decreasing step size until it "settles" on a value that represents as much advance as it can get without knock. The car will then use another evaluation mode to populate the Fine Learning table. FLKC can be positive or negative. If a certain number of cells reach a trigger value, and other conditions are met, the car will return to IAM evaluation mode and the process will begin all over again.

OK, if the above is correct, then I have some questions.

1) If the car is in a mode where it isn't evaluating IAM (in other words, in the finer evaluation mode), how does Feedback KC fit into the picture? Does the repeated occurrance of FBKC in a particular cell eventually get transferred into the FLKC map? Does the FLKC map have a mode all of it's own?

2) If FLKC can be positive or negative, is it possible to end up at the same total timing with a low IAM and positive FLKC as at a higher IAM but negative FLKC?

3) Specific to my current difficulties, with 87 octane I had an IAM of .875 and was seeing prolonged periods (seconds in length) of line after line of FBKC which was audible inside the cabin. Would this have eventually been eliminated as the FLKC table was filled in with negative values in the knocking cells?

4) Again specific to my current case, I switched to 93 octane this morning. While driving the same roads at the same intensity, I still had an IAM of .875 (which I now understand why based on your post above) but had no instances of FBKC and no audible knocking sound. Will the car eventually fill in the FLKC with positive values until I again begin to see lots of FBKC?

5) Again, in my case, considering the conditions in questions 3 and 4, does this indicate that it would be safer for the health of my engine to run higher octane fuel?


Thanks for your time and the knowledge guys, I REALLY appreciate it.
1. IIRC FBKC is not active when FLKC is active and vice versa. Tea Cups can give more details.
2. The DA table would cap total timing. Don't know about a lower IAM+FLKC, but sounds possible.
3. Yes
4. It will eventually, it takes for awhile for FLKC to grow and "break out". All conditions to lower the IAM must be met in reverse as well.
5. It is best to try and use the same gas from the same station, no matter what octane.

Last edited by gabedude; 12-01-2007 at 01:17 AM.
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