Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday September 23, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2007, 11:25 AM   #1
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default ProImage's Surgeline Tuned, PERRIN GT3076R kit Dyno Results

ProImage Dyno Test and Tune For Complete Turbo Kit

One of our long time local dealers Pro-Image Performance, had seen our SEMA 2006 STI limited and wanted to build their 2006 STI to be just like it. Josh and his father both are big time track guys, and both have 2006 STI’s. As Josh does one thing, his father follows along and does the same thing. They both got bored with bolt on performance, and decided to get the PERRIN Complete GT3076R Turbo Kit. This kit includes everything to turn a stock STI (with a catback exhaust) into a 400WHP monster. And we mean everything, from the turbo kit, intake, fuel system, headers, and even the AccessPORT programmed and ready to run!



Ya, not sure, but this guy from Subiesport seems to show up for no reason sometimes????



Love the all black with the STI lip. Very mean, and very stealth! Stealth except for the huge intercooler and exhaust... and big wing.....and Brembo's.... Nevermind.....
Josh and his father installed the kit prior to the dyno day, and with a quick base map from Surgeline tuning, they drove down to our shop and the custom tuning begun. Unlike a lot of customer’s tunes, peak power was not as important as durable power. Since Josh is tracking this car, 400WHP wasn’t that important as is keeping the engine in a safe state of tune.



'
Locked and loaded, the STI was ready to do some runs!
Since Tim Bailey of Surgeline Tuning is our AccessPORT tuner, we made sure he was on hand to do the tuning. Like any custom tune, we started at low WG boost. This was done at 14psi. As expected the car make almost 300WHP and 300ft-lbs of torque when tuned! From there we started turning up the boost! With a very good base map built for this kit, the tuning went very smooth.






We feel this map is very safe because we stay under the OEM MAP sensors limits. This is important as this allows us to keep a boost limit in place. For those who do not know, the stock MAP sensor can only read to about 21psi, so anytime your boost goes over this, the ECU doesn’t know. This means that instead of small boost spikes, you get uncontrolled 40psi boost spikes, this is bad! Keeping the boost below this cap, allows us to build a safe map using our EBCS solenoid, and allows us to keep the OEM boost fail-safes in tact.



We never recommend that people run over 360-370WHP with the stock STI block, but here is a sort of “glory” run. The extra HP was from holding 3psi extra boost until 5500RPM. It comes down to the WHP you want is determined by the boost you run at a given RPM. Besides running a reasonable boost level, the AFR’s are nice and safe also.



Starting with the first run, to the last couple tuned runs, we gained 120ft-lbs of torque, and 80whp! If the customer doesn’t notice that, they must have a numb ass. So what is different about this tune versus others? Torque! Because this is our complete turbo kit, it includes our equal length headers. The header make the turbo spool up quicker, and in turn more torque! The rather large torque number comes from more boost at lower RPM. Our 2007 Limited STI made 387ft-lbs and 405WHP. This car ran 20PSI and held it to redline. For Josh at ProImage’s STI we ran 22psi tapering to 19psi hence a little more torque, and a little less HP up top.



The final results are very impressive with this whole thing being done on 92 octane fuel only. Next mod for Josh (which means his dad also) is water injection. 450Ft-lbs?? If nothing else we can make the same power, but with less boost. Again, a great thing for the track!

Thanks to Josh and his dad Stan for taking the pics along the way. Anyone looking to get these same results give us a call, and lets get you setup! PERRIN Performance is not quite ready for walk-in dyno tunes yet, but mid next year we will be. With that said look for our showroom to completed early next year, and PERRIN Performances first ever Grand Opening!
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 11:32 AM   #2
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

very nice
juanmedina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 11:59 AM   #3
squashman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 71718
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
07 STI LTD
SWP

Default

That torque drop off is ferocious.

Nice build.
squashman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 12:23 PM   #4
Audiosavvy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 150794
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Vehicle:
Qcab dakota 4x4
LT1 Formula Firebird

Default

That's awesome! Nice write-up as well
Audiosavvy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 12:40 PM   #5
Cobb Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 4803
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Austin, DFW, Portland, SOCAL
Default

Excellent comprehensive write up Jeff.

Anyone want to see a data log?

Tim
Cobb Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 12:43 PM   #6
Kotir
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17300
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Eugene, OR
Vehicle:
'93 Impreza L Wagon
JDM Ver8 STi swap

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
Excellent comprehensive write up Jeff.

Anyone want to see a data log?

Tim
No, but sounds like you wanna show us...

Just kidding

Bet that car is fun to drive.

-Tim
Kotir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 12:47 PM   #7
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
For those who do not know, the stock MAP sensor can only read to about 21psi, so anytime your boost goes over this, the ECU doesn’t know. This means that instead of small boost spikes, you get uncontrolled 40psi boost spikes, this is bad! Keeping the boost below this cap, allows us to build a safe map using our EBCS solenoid, and allows us to keep the OEM boost fail-safes in tact.
This is misinformation, the OEM MAP sensor reads to ~26 psi, boost control and fuel cut maps both work properly up to this limit. The fact that the Cobb Software only logs to 21 psi has to do with a communication limit and not a limitation of the sensor or what the ECU actually reads. I can see how tuning boost above that limit would be a bit harder without the proper logging abilities such as enginuity gives us.
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 01:33 PM   #8
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
This is misinformation, the OEM MAP sensor reads to ~26 psi, boost control and fuel cut maps both work properly up to this limit. The fact that the Cobb Software only logs to 21 psi has to do with a communication limit and not a limitation of the sensor or what the ECU actually reads. I can see how tuning boost above that limit would be a bit harder without the proper logging abilities such as enginuity gives us.
you beat me to it...
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 02:17 PM   #9
benw
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103320
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Oklahoma City
Vehicle:
2005 wingless
aspen white

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
Excellent comprehensive write up Jeff.

Anyone want to see a data log?

Tim
I'd love to see the total timing, dynamic advance, and AVCS if you can.
benw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 02:43 PM   #10
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by squashman View Post
That torque drop off is ferocious.

Nice build.
Its not that bad, it just looks bad becasue the graph is smooshed in half in the RPM axis. THe larger HP graph the Dynapack lets us do looks nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
This is misinformation, the OEM MAP sensor reads to ~26 psi, boost control and fuel cut maps both work properly up to this limit. The fact that the Cobb Software only logs to 21 psi has to do with a communication limit and not a limitation of the sensor or what the ECU actually reads. I can see how tuning boost above that limit would be a bit harder without the proper logging abilities such as enginuity gives us.
I started out being wrong in that is can read 22psi, not 21psi, but i thought i would ask Cobb tuning about this to make sure we are all square on this and so we can move on.
From Trey:

There is a big update we're wrapping up for all current model APs that will allow you to datalog MAP pressure as high as the sensor you use can read. You can still tune above what the software currently reads because you can log Turbo Dynamics and it'll tell you where you need to go.

For the AP, the same change we're making to the tuning software in order to allow the AP to display boost up to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000++ psi, if the MAP sensor used can support that.

Absolute max for the stock sensor is around 26psi relative, depending of course on your baro pressure but that's basically where it'll cap out at. As I said, the next update has the ability to read up to the max of the sensor, regardless of if you put in a 3.5 bar sensor, stock, etc.


So it sound like we can still go beyond that 21psi, but realistically its not what the customer wanted. Reliability was important for the track.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 02:57 PM   #11
dmross
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2818
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2000 2.5RS

Default

The torque curve (actually, the whole plot) looks a lot like my 30R plot on Buschers mustang, eh Tim?

http://chrono.firex.org/images/rrplot.jpg
dmross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #12
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
So it sound like we can still go beyond that 21psi, but realistically its not what the customer wanted. Reliability was important for the track.
Yup, sounds good Just in your post it sounded like you limited boost because of the sensor rather than reliability. I can understand keeping boost low for that reason.
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:09 PM   #13
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
This is misinformation, the OEM MAP sensor reads to ~26 psi, boost control and fuel cut maps both work properly up to this limit. The fact that the Cobb Software only logs to 21 psi has to do with a communication limit and not a limitation of the sensor or what the ECU actually reads. I can see how tuning boost above that limit would be a bit harder without the proper logging abilities such as enginuity gives us.

It all depends on what elevation and base barometric pressure you're at. The stock MAP sensor can read a total of ~37psi absolute pressure. So at sea level (14.7psi barometric), the sensor will cap out at around 22.3psi relative pressure (37psi-14.7psi). As you go up in altitude and down in barometric pressure, the amount of relative pressure the sensor can read will of course rise as well. So say you're at some elevation and your barometric pressure is only 10psi. In this case the ECU will be able to see as much as 27psi relative pressure.

For measuring anything above 37psi absolute you will need an upgraded MAP sensor and the proper calibration for it.

Thanks
-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:37 PM   #14
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
So at sea level (14.7psi barometric), the sensor will cap out at around 22.3psi relative pressure (37psi-14.7psi).
This is simply not true, the sensor will actually read ~26psig at sea level. I've had no issues logging above 24psig using Enginuity, I've yet to turn up the boost to +25psig on the meth tune until I get the fuel/timing perfect.

Log MAP-v if you can, you will see that the voltage is not maxxed out yet at 5.0v once you hit the 22.3psig cap.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:48 PM   #15
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by testes1010 View Post
This is simply not true, the sensor will actually read ~26psig at sea level. I've had no issues logging above 24psig using Enginuity, I've yet to turn up the boost to +25psig on the meth tune until I get the fuel/timing perfect.

Log MAP-v if you can, you will see that the voltage is not maxxed out yet at 5.0v once you hit the 22.3psig cap.
Have you logged turbo dynamics values at above 22.3psi relative at sea level? Does the ECU actually see this boost and respond in closed loop? I'd be very interested in seeing some logs of this.

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:52 PM   #16
modaddict
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 95840
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Pasco, WA
Vehicle:
sold to a good bud
awaiting next car

Default

good stuff.
modaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:54 PM   #17
testes1010
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 47145
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Henderson, KY
Vehicle:
2012 Gas Saver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
Have you logged turbo dynamics values at above 22.3psi relative at sea level? Does the ECU actually see this boost and respond in closed loop? I'd be very interested in seeing some logs of this.

-- Ed
TD is different in Enginuity than it is in Streetuner, but I can log anything you'd like.

I use a Hallman Pro(thanks to you), so all I log is MRP.
testes1010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:55 PM   #18
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Exactly, I've read up to 25 psi on a UTEC with the stock map sensor even (I didn't push further, like having a 1 psi buffer atleast when running speed density) and 26 psi on the ecu.

Even if you upgrade the sensor btw, logging through the regular path will only give you 22.3 psi in the logs. I was one of the first ones with the logging definitions to read higher than that when putting a TurboXS Map sensor on a 05 STI ECU. It is a limitation of the SSM protocol that will only report a maximum of 37 psia, Enginuity figured out where to get the true value from RAM and it looks like Cobb will have it soon as well so you will have a maximum of about 41 psia on the stock sensor.
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 03:56 PM   #19
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmross View Post
The torque curve (actually, the whole plot) looks a lot like my 30R plot on Buschers mustang, eh Tim?

http://chrono.firex.org/images/rrplot.jpg
Very close!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
Yup, sounds good Just in your post it sounded like you limited boost because of the sensor rather than reliability. I can understand keeping boost low for that reason.
Not Limited, but it was always a selling feature of the EBCS and the stock ECU. But hey, Maybe we can convince Josh to do a couple 26psi runs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
It all depends on what elevation and base barometric pressure you're at. The stock MAP sensor can read a total of ~37psi absolute pressure. So at sea level (14.7psi barometric), the sensor will cap out at around 22.3psi relative pressure (37psi-14.7psi). As you go up in altitude and down in barometric pressure, the amount of relative pressure the sensor can read will of course rise as well. So say you're at some elevation and your barometric pressure is only 10psi. In this case the ECU will be able to see as much as 27psi relative pressure.

For measuring anything above 37psi absolute you will need an upgraded MAP sensor and the proper calibration for it.

Thanks
-- Ed
Trey explained the same thing, i just cut that out. The new stuff that allows the use of any maps sensor is pretty cool!
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 04:09 PM   #20
Master2192
RIP 10/12/83 to 02/10/08
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 83254
Join Date: Mar 2005
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Roy, Washington
Vehicle:
98 2.5 RS
04 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff
Trey explained the same thing, i just cut that out. The new stuff that allows the use of any maps sensor is pretty cool!
I bet Tim Bailey will be one of the first to tune using that new feature. Friend of mine, we put a TurboXS 4 bar sensor on his STI Swapped 95 impreza. Took me many reflashes to get the calibration right (lots of math as well). My friend will be rebuilding his engine with a 35R, maybe they can test boost control of the ECU with 28 psi and meth

This is the calibration I used for that particular sensor
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2&postcount=75

I am glad Perrin didn't get angry after we hijacked his thread. I know Tim is providing you with maps for your kits, so will you now have tuned 400whp maps available for the kit off-the-shelf?
Master2192 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 04:25 PM   #21
TyranosaurusWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25731
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Vehicle:
02 wrx(sold)/2005
Sti/ 93 Leg Wag

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
Excellent comprehensive write up Jeff.

Anyone want to see a data log?

Tim
Yes!

subscribed
TyranosaurusWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 06:47 PM   #22
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
I bet Tim Bailey will be one of the first to tune using that new feature. Friend of mine, we put a TurboXS 4 bar sensor on his STI Swapped 95 impreza. Took me many reflashes to get the calibration right (lots of math as well). My friend will be rebuilding his engine with a 35R, maybe they can test boost control of the ECU with 28 psi and meth

This is the calibration I used for that particular sensor
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2&postcount=75

I am glad Perrin didn't get angry after we hijacked his thread. I know Tim is providing you with maps for your kits, so will you now have tuned 400whp maps available for the kit off-the-shelf?
Why would we be angry?? The one thing i hate is bad info, and I was the one spreding it!

And it was good to get the full answer from Trey.

On the maps, oh yes, we about 10 really good turbo kit customers running these, (which we leave at about 18-20PSI with the EBCS) and they are very happy! So that is a 350-400WHP map, fuel depending. We have created a part number, and page on our site that is the full kit. It something people have bought in the past (but in pieces) and we just figured why not put in on the site. So there you go!
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 06:58 PM   #23
vwjettavr67
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 99192
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default

So what about seeing some the logs???
vwjettavr67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 08:06 PM   #24
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Tim must be flying to go tuning, how about i help him out a little.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 08:07 PM   #25
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Sorry, my bad

DATA
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fs:socal - NIB Perrin gt3076r kit Blackout713 SCIC Private Classifieds 4 02-26-2010 08:58 PM
Perrin Lightweight Pulley Dyno Results explosivo South West Impreza Club Forum -- SWIC 34 10-24-2009 03:51 PM
PERRIN 2008 STI Dyno Results........ PERRINJeff Proven Power Bragging 212 04-16-2008 05:23 PM
TR 20g, Meth, Tim Bailey tuned e-motor Indy dyno result MattPersman Proven Power Bragging 49 01-29-2008 09:47 PM
Enginuity tuned 06 wrx wagon- dyno results 06rexwagon Commercial ECU Reflashes 12 04-05-2007 05:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.