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Old 12-23-2007, 05:26 AM   #1
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:26 AM   #2
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:51 AM   #3
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Richard,

Quote:
Almost all PWM pump controller on the market uses Shurflo pump, designed to operate between 0-150psi. The heart of the system is an electronic motor speed controller, vary the speed according to a sensor. It could be a MAP sensor, a MAF or any sensors that read engine load. It is normally a 2-dimensional system. A manifold-pressure type system [/b]does not take into account of any RPM change.
I have a few comments and need further explanation. You are referring to a progressive system as "MAP only" and yet you are referring to it as a "2D". What is your definition of 2D. I am a little confused, maybe I have terminology wrong. I am referring to 2D as injection based on 2 inputs. Can you please clarify that.

Next for #4:


4) Pulsing due to demand switch ~20psi ripple. (some system by-pass this switch, but risking system pressure beyond design limits). May require further explanation


Its important to point out that some of us have the ability to leave the demand swith on and yet be able to keep the max pressure just below the pulsing point of the pump. Customers should atleast be aware that there are different options for eliminating this issue. Some are more safe than others.

My next question is concerning the checkvalve. Not all progressive kits use a checkvalve (we have a solenoid option for example) and the manufactures of PWM kits that use a checkvalve use a 15-20 PSI, not 30. Would it not be fair to use 15-20 instead of 30?

Last for now, its probably fair that the customers are aware that some US manufacturers can reference RPM, some can do in a 2D and 3D MAP (Im refering to 2D and 3D as the abilitity to take 2 or 3 inputs and create a single progressive output based on those settings). So my last question, does your chart only apply to those that running a single boost input using a 30 PSI checkvalve? Or does it apply to every progressive kit on the market.


Thanks in advance for your answer.

David

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:32 PM   #4
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Old 12-23-2007, 01:24 PM   #5
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Ok, thanks. I then have a couple of comments. I will quote seperately the points I want to make.

Quote:
Option 2: Reducing the duty cycle so that maximum operating pressure is just below 150psi - ie 149.99psi. Unfornately this is easy on paper and not easy to perform in practice.
We do this already. I agree its not EASY thing to engineer, however when vari-cool was designed we designed it to be scaleable to different pumps and different devices. Our setup system makes it easy for our customers to do just that. By setting the max dutycycle to just below the pulse point, the pump will no longer pulse AND the unit will auto calibrate so that the new dutycycle max is applied at max boost (or what ever your max input is). Since we have this technology and its been in production for over 2.5 years, I feel it should be pointed out.

I want to piont out that there are progressive companies on the market that can reference things other than boost, such as RPM, etc. A step further, Others can inject based on 2 or 3 inputs. The only reason I bring this up, I want to make sure that while some of your test data may be valid, your test is not conclusive of every single "progressive pump system" on the market. Customers have choices and configurations that they can make based on manufacturer.


I will also address other issues and questions at a later time. I dont mind this debate as long as you keep it professional I will do the same. I think if all of us give input to this thread, the customer can have a good understanding of how current systems work and can make a good decision on what they want.


David





Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
David, thanks for chiming in.

My definition of a 2-Dimensional system is the flow of the systems based on "RPM" or "Load". The engine's fueling is based on RPM x Load.

Overcoming Pulsing:
(as you pointed out)

Option 1: Bypassing the "demand switch". System pressure is likely to exceed the pump's safe operational area in case of bloakage. For Shurflo, it is 150psi.
Option 2: Reducing the duty cycle so that maximum operating pressure is just below 150psi - ie 149.99psi. Unfornately this is easy on paper and not easy to perform in practice.

In reality:
You need to adjust the max pump pressure to ~130psi so that the pressure ripple induced by the diaphragm does not trip the switch. But this only hold true if there are no back pressure from the manifold (see next paragraph).

If the peak turbo boost is 20psi, you need to reduce the duty cycle down further to produce ~110psi system pressure. This prevents the "demand swtch" from triggering.

Summary:
A "pulse free" (150psi pump) system should ideally have a 110psi peak pressure (at 20psi boost). The dynamic range of a PPS (progressive pump speed) system relies on wide pressures span to be truly progressive. This is because 4x the pressure range only yields 2x the delivery range. See post #1.
We have not taking the effect of a "checkvalve" so far.

Checkvalve:
(Depending on the purpose of the checkvalve)

1. Some system use it for keeping the water inside the delivery line (~15-25psi).
2. Some systems use it to stop vacuum from siphoning the water into the engine if the water jet is installed in vacuum (~15psi).
3. Some system use it to prevent siphoning due to tank position is higher than the jet or car parked on a slope. (~5-7psi)

An inline solenoid valve can eliminate the use of a checkvalve but cost more.

I deal with the last part as soon as I get a moment.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:47 PM   #6
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
You can eliminate the "pulsing" in expense of delivery range. As far as I know, all PPS systems on this market can be re-scaled right from the outset. It is not unique to your system - I need to be very clear on this.
I would love to hear about this. There are definately other ways to scale it. Here is what ours does that is different.

If you set the Max dutycyle to 75% in the software and lets say for example you are running a 0-5V input, at 5V 75% of the current will be sent to the valve, it will scale 75% dutycycle over the entire 0-5V or max boost.. This is far different from taking a map sensor signal and only running it from 0-3.75 volts to prevent pulsing. Please be clear about that when you do your demo.



Quote:


I would rather you do not mention company names and use this thread for anything else other than being technical orientated. I would be grateful if you could delete the above quoted paragraph. Please?

I will move on to the RPM/Load PPS system later.
I will be glad to remove my company name, if you will be kind to indicate that there are PPS systems that can by pass the pump safely and that not all progressive kits use a checkvalve. I just want to be clear that what you are stating is one example and not to be blindly applied to all progressive kits on the market.
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:00 PM   #8
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
I will gladly mention that some company solved the "pulsing " problem by lowering the duty cycle to avoid triggering the "demand switch".

I believe I have already mentioned that the "in expense" of flow range. If you have another way to achieving this without sacrificing the range, please do contribute.

This improves the range, it is not at the expense of it.

I already explained this, let me make it more clear.

lets assume for the sake of argument that the pump will pulse at exacltly 150. We know there is a variance, just for example.

Regular way, pump turns off at 150, does not turn back on until 80 psi. Hits 150 again does not turn on until 80 psi.

Now with our program option, you can program it send enough current to pump at max so it never hits the turn off point, maybe it will hit around 145 or 147 PSI. With this way, it never pulses, the pump responds only to input from the controller.

You are improving the range as it no longer pulses. you also have your entire input range 0-5V our min/max boost to work with.

Maybe you can be more clear so I can understand how our option limits the range, because I dont see it.

David

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:38 PM   #10
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:43 PM   #11
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
David, help me on this..




I always assume the hysterisis of the demand switch is ~20 psi? Or is it as much as 70ps as you quoted? (150psi -> 80psi)
My fault, I was thinking of the old 80-100 PSI model. that one turns on back on at 80 PSI. I got my data mixed up.

The 150 psi pumps according to shurflo have a window of 1.38 to 2.07 bar or 20-30 PSI.
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:51 PM   #13
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Edited.

Richard, I want to have an answer to this, to be clear. Do you believe that our option of scaling the dutycycle to prevent pump pulsing will limit the dynamic range further than using the system at 100% dutycycle and allowing the bypass switch to function.

I need a clear answer before I continue. This is an important issue to me.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:08 PM   #14
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
You cannot adjust the demand switch to trigger at 145psi to avoid it from triggering. If the boost pressure is 6psi, your demand switch will trigger immediately.

You need to set the demand switch to: 149psi - peak manifold pressure to avoid pulsing.

for example:

20psi boost: demand switch set to 129psi
30psi boost: demand switch set to 119psi

Every time you lower the demand switch setting, the dynamic range suffers. I am not taken account of the pressure ripple of the generated by the moving diaphragm under the pressure stroke. +/- 20psi. You should allow another loss of 10psi.

In a nut shell, you cannot solve a mechanical problem with electronics - however clever your electronic scaling algorithm is.
You still dont follow. Leave the demand switch in place, dont touch it. I agree everytime you lower it, range suffers. We are not doing that here.

Again, follow me, its as simple as this. If you set the max dutycycle so that the water pressure is LESS than the amount of pressure that it takes to make the demand switch to activate, the demand switch will never activate.

In effect the electronics prevent the demand switch from ever activating because it does not allow enough current to get to the pump to trip the switch, and then scales the current to match the max input.

Let me know if thats more clear and based on what I said, I need an answer of whether you think this will or will not affect the range as you indicated earlier that it would.. Very important to me. Once we get this cleared up, we can move on.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:53 PM   #16
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
The demand switch is fixed at 150psi.

Let say you set the duty cycle at 70% at no boost. water pressure = 149psi
If you boost at 30psi, you have to reduce the duty cycle to 50% so that it make 119psi.

Your dynamic range is now 0-119psi, not 0-149psi. (dis-regard dutycycle)

Do you see the demand switch see the "SUM" of the pump pressure + manifold pressure. Is this clear?
Why would the dutycycle be 70% at "no boost" on a boost based system? That would be bad. Dutycycle would be 0 at "no boost".

Having said that, you made a claim earlier that the Dynamic range will be affected and that is not a correct statement. If the pump pulses at 149 PSI and turns back on at 120 PSI, that is not a true "range". Or atleast its not a "useable" range. obviously if the pump is pulsing between 120 and 149, you are not able to controll it with a controller, how can you consider that to be part of the range?

Having said that, what would you rather have up to 120 PSI with NO pulsing or upto 150 PSI where it pulses between 120 and 150? In reality the last 30 PSI is not really part of your range as you cant control it. Again, I am using 30 PSI as the example because you were assuming the customer is running 30 PSI.

Now to clarify what I just said, I am referring to the DYNAMIC range of a system as the actual range where you can control the flow.

Here is what I mean by Range, please read my example below.

Now consider this, if on a M5 the pump starts pulsing at 70% dutycycle (that percent is not the actual number, but use it for example). Lets say the MIN is at 1 and the Max is at 10. Anytime you are at or above 7 PSI the pump will be maxed out. Using our setup with vari-cool , your dynamic range will be improved because the pump will continue to increase flow all the way until 10 PSI.


If you dont dis-agree with what I say, we can move on.

Also, I want to point out that once we have an agreement, I'm willing to edit my posts into 1 to clean up this thread. I have no interest in taking this thread off topic or to dwell too long on one issue. I simply want all the facts to be present for those that read this.



David

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:46 PM   #18
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:05 PM   #19
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:16 PM   #20
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:18 PM   #21
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I cant give you data today on all of the nozzles you have listed, however I can verify that our M5 nozzle is almost exactly as you put from 200 to 400 CC/M on our Vari-Cool kits that are being sold today, on the test I did today the top end was about 380 CC. Once we get further into this thread, I will be posting some "alternative" configurations that you have not listed in your choices above. However that is a topic for a different day. I will clarify one more thing:

my idea of dynamic range is USEABLE RANGE

I dont agree that you would need a huge range on the system. You do have different nozzle sizes, etc. I believe that a good progressive kit should be able to give you enough of a range that prevents you from having too much flow down low and allow you have to have enough up top without having too much. Atomization down low should be good as well. In addition, you should be able to configure the system to customize for your particular setup. The electronic bypass that we refer to, is one such example.

Tenatively I can agaree that at the very least your M5 example is accurate.

David
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:23 PM   #22
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
More update on post #2


Very important information on the effect of an inline checkvalve on a WAI system.
I have a new question. Again, I am not looking for anytype of an arguement/fight. I want to have an understanding of some of your posts that are not clear. This post below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist
9. I have taken some data from a reputable PPS system manufacturer, a 150-psi 60W Shurflo flow pump has the follow characteristics:

M2 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 180psi
M3 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 160psi
M5 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 135psi
M14 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 105psi
what do you mean by following characteristics ?

Are you saying a M2 can only hit a max of 180 psi and a m5 can only hit a max of 135 psi .

Please clarify, I need to understand if that is what you mean by this. I have other questions about your post, but need this clear up first. Also, I assume you mean with the pump bypassed, for the M2,etc.


David

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:33 PM   #24
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
This is a copy of an unedited version from a reputable WAI maker. As I am not going to mention company names here. I don't know what they meant by following characteristics.

I can pm you the link to which I got the information from. If it is still there.
I dont care about the name of the company, but I would suggest that you remove the data as its not correct.

If you want, I will be glad to take some videos. I dont know if I have time tomorrow, however I can assure you that the M5 can hit over 300 PSI, the M2 can hit over 400.


You can see how I am getting mixed signals here on one hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist
Many PPS systems run their pumps up to 200-300psi
But on the other hand you make it clear that you believe that the pump cant do more than 180 PSI with a M2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist
I have taken some data from a reputable PPS system manufacturer, a 150-psi 60W Shurflo flow pump has the follow characteristics:

M2 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 180psi
M3 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 160psi
M5 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 135psi
M14 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 105psi

How can they run it at 300 PSI if your chart is accurate? Further more, I dont know any company that advertises 300 PSI.



Im just very suprised you would publish data that you have not verified and dont know exactly what they meant by it.

I have a glyceryn filled gauge that I am 100% sure is very accurate.

If I post videos supporting what said, will you remove your post? I think its wrong to imply that a 150 psi shurflo pump is such a woos bag that it can only produce 135 PSI when mated with a M5.

Let me know and I will post them. I need time to take them so I can be a few days.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 12-23-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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