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Old 01-16-2008, 11:41 PM   #51
rhinotech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPTurbo View Post
FP uses "specialty" housings. So politically correct!

We use some housings from Taiwan in some turbos, and they are these same housings. You see MHI will not sell the 8cm housing (Greddy lockdown, cry all you want), so all 8cm housings actually come from China. We have had pretty good results with this turbine housing, but some rejects there also. You can see the foundry marks in the pictures. The exhaust housings have this mark CHSH on them when they come from this particular foundry. The pics in the links show the mark. They also show the failure prone "white" colored chinese compressor wheels. I tried using these a couple years ago in a batch of 10 WRX turbos - 6 of them broke into pieces during the testing. This is the same stuff as Momnetum Turbo from a couple years ago, but with a prettier tag on it. For the record all FP turbos feature genuine MHI compressor wheels, not these "white" ones. And we build them all ourselves, just like we have for the last decade - and that is a lot of turbo experience.

We had to start making our own bearing housings to get the quality level where we needed it to be, these ones had a pretty high rejection rate. Looks sorta like the turbos that used to be Momnetum are now Exotic Speed, but what do I know

Also called MHI today, Exotic Speed in Canada is not any type of MHI turbo distributor or turbo shop/builder contrary to what was posted earlier. So don't believe everything you read on ebay - and don't take my word for it either, look for yourself!

Boost on!

Robert Young
Robert,

I trust your knowledge on turbo's because you have lots and lots of experience working with various setups and building turbos in house for years! I don't see the "white" wheel your speaking of. It looks exactly the same as the wheel that is in my blouch 20g. Even has the same markings on the hex nut looking piece on the end of the wheel. As far as them not being a MHI distributor, here is a link. http://www.exoticspeed.ca/index.php?cPath=73_103.

Also, here is a link to everything they sell on their website as far as turbos. http://www.exoticspeed.ca/index.php?cPath=73

This is directly from ExoticSpeed's website. Like they say, "the proof is in the pudding" so we will have to see what happens here. It looks good to me though...

Quote:
About ExoticSpeed

At ExoticSpeed, our name and our passion come hand in hand: we live and breathe for the sole passion for Speed. Headquartered in Richmond, British Columbia, Canada, we provide a full line of products ranging from our flagship ExoticSpeed Turbochargers, blow-off valve exhaust, intercooling system & racing suspension, and even down right to filter and oil. Our philosophy is to maximize driving experience with overwhelming performance. Having reputable manufactures such as HKS, GReddy / TRUST, Turbonetics, MoMo, JUN, MHI and RC Engineering on our side, we strive to provide you the highest quality products available on the market. Our commitment to maximize our line of performance products has been approved by HKS, and we are more than happy to have HKS products as a latest addition to approve ExoticSpeed as authorized dealer.
Since the beginning, ExoticSpeed has been committed to providing well-integrated, reliable, and environmentally sound performance system. The ExoticSpeed team consists of leadership; engineering genius, creativity and willingness to listen to customer are the foundation of our company’s goal. Monitoring consumer reaction and input on issues pertaining to material quality, external appearance, sound quality, and of course, performance, ExoticSpeed stays in tune with automotive enthusiasts’ needs. Moreover, ExoticSpeed’s products are designed to be user friendly for easy installation.
Having years of experience in fine tuning and quality control, ExoticSpeed’s vision is to bring you the best quality in auto parts. With our Canadian quality assurance and our innovation product concepts, your satisfaction is our first and foremost goal. ExoticSpeed’s quality, reliability, and exception performance is assured our committed R&D team and the rigorous quality control. Our reputation for excellence is the result of each ExoticSpeed’s engineers’ skill, enthusiasm, drive, and pride in creating ExoticSpeed products. Our quality and our reliable performance have been proven through extensive testing in extreme conditions. Every single piece of our products has passed our strict quality assurance inspection. By understanding the marketing and listening to customers, ExoticSpeed is driving performance to new levels with exciting premium quality products to satisfy the ultimate performance enthusiasts. ExoticSpeed is energized by the unlimited possibilities the future holds and is committed to creating efficient, high performance system for the new technology being developed by the automotive industry.
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Last edited by rhinotech; 01-17-2008 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:01 AM   #52
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Info for the turbo from the website.

Quote:
ExoticSpeed ES450 Turbo
[ESWR4520]
__________________________________________________ _

MSRP $1389.00

ExoticSpeed ES450 Turbo

SPECIFICATION

* POWER RATING: 450+ HP
* SYSTEM: JOURNAL BEARING
* CHRA: TD06SL2-20G-8
* MODEL: ES450

Application:

* Subaru Impreza 1996-2006 WRX & STi
* EJ20,EJ25 ENGINE

COMPRESSOR

* INTAKE: 2.25"
* A/R: 0.57
* WHEEL DIA: 52.6/68MM
* CFM: 580
* ACTUATOR: 0.8 BAR

TURBINE

* NOZZLE AREA: 8CM2
* WHEEL DIA. : 52.7/68MM

WARRANTY:

* 2 YEAR MANUFACTURE WARRANTY
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:26 AM   #53
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cool, Please install NOW!!!!


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Old 01-17-2008, 10:36 AM   #54
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It will go on soon. I will post lots of pics and details during and after installation.
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:49 AM   #55
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Shiny. Pretty.

With the "white" wheel in it however. Somebody in china had the idea to clip the compressor wheels in hopes of avoiding the failures. Yours is like that also.

Look at the turbine outlet flange, see how the turbine bore punches out beyond the gasket surface to the O2 housing? When we first started ordering this housing they wanted to cut it that way, in fact they did cut a bunch that way, but we rejected them. We use a bevel to blend the flow into the DP and avoid the sharp "lip" for the airflow to hang up on while entering the DP. I think they cut almost 100 housings like this, they were pretty pissed off that we would not accept them. Looks like they found a home for them after all.

Keep us posted and let us know how much power you make on it!

Boost On!
Robert Young
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:53 AM   #56
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Robert,

Could you possibly save one of the pictures that I've posted and load it into paint/photoshop and draw arrows pointing to the problem here? That would help alot. I'm just missing it

Thanks,
Ryan
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:00 AM   #57
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How far is McKinney from me? I'll take it over there for you to have a look - if its close enough... Wouldn't hurt for a turbo expert to analyze the turbo and post true professional stats and information about seeing it first hand...
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:20 AM   #58
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Thanks for the links, but I looked at the site when I first say your posts, and most of the turbos there are not MHI. Even most of the ones they say are MHI in the pics are not.

I know they say they sell MHI, but most of the Mitsu style turbos on there site are not MHI. And I am not talking abourt the ones they call ES450, obviously they are not saying that is an MHI turbo, it is their turbo, and that is cool - anybody can sell anything they want.

For example:

http://www.exoticspeed.ca/product_in...787689d50aaa1c

this is the EVOGT turbo that is well known in the DSM community as a aftermarket Chinese clone of the MHI 49178-01470 turbocharger. Not Genuine MHI, but rather a close aftermarket clone.

http://www.exoticspeed.ca/product_in...roducts_id=726

This one is way out there. MHI has NEVER made any turbo trimed out like this and it does not even have a corresponding MHI part number. MHI never made a TD05H DSM turbo with a 20g wheel in it. Despite being called "MHI" and "produced under the strictest quality in the Sagamihara factory in Japan using the latest technology" it is not. Just the truth man. People are not always 100% accurate, even when they try to be. I hope it is just a misunderstanding with their website guys or something.

http://www.exoticspeed.ca/product_in...roducts_id=722

Similar situation on this build. MHI never made a turbocharger with this combo, not in Japan and not anywhere else. The Subaru lineup of turbocharger built by MHI is limited to TD04 and small 16g TD05H and no bigger. Any Subaru Mitsubishi type turbo larger than the small 16g is not built by MHI, MHI only build turbos for OEM cars, not aftermarket performance, and no OEM Subaru ever had a MHI turbo larger than a small 16g.

http://www.exoticspeed.ca/product_in...roducts_id=717

Same story on this one. It is described as a MHI 20g turbo, but it is aftermarket. It has the "white" wheel in it, an unclipped one. MHI does not ave a PN wheel with a clip on it, like your pics have.

I'll shoot some pics of the white wheels vs the MHI wheels, gimmie a few min. They are relly white in color, just much lighter than the MHI and the surface smoothness is diff and the material is different. I just call it the "white" wheel sort of like they call the "green room" green even though it might not be green, just a name.

BOST ON!
Robert Young
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:43 AM   #59
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Here is a pic of the MHI wheel on the left and the chinese exploding one on the right. What you can't see is the HUGE balance marks on the back. You can sort of see how the white wheel needed bigger balance cutouts on the exducer tips.

Yours is on of the white wheels, but made after they decided to start clipping the inducer leading edges to keep it from fragging.

BOOST ON!

Robert Young
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MHI vs Whitesmall.JPG (44.0 KB, 714 views)
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:16 PM   #60
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Here are the circled pics you asked for.

I drew a crude white line in where the edge of the DP should be. You can see how the opening extends a quarter inch past where the gasket will be. Check this by holding the gasket or DP up to the opening. This produces a sharp quarter inch lip in the turbo outlet airstream which is sort of a bad thing to do in most peoples books.

The other pic I circled the leading edge of your compressor wheel to point out where the clip angle was ground in. Clipping turbine wheels is a widespread practice in turbine wheels, but that doesnt make it a good idea for a compressor necessarily. MHI has never done this on any wheels.

Your pics were sorta fuzzy, but I have looked at this stuff so many times and for so many years I am sure of what I see even with a soft focus.

I really hope I am not coming off as some kind of asshat douchbag, it is just that FP makes very clear distinctions between genuine MHI product and aftermarket product, we even segregate MHI turbos into a different section on our website from the areas where our custom units are listed to help people realize authentic vs custom aftermarket. All MHI turbochargers have MHI PN of a format of 49178-06310 for example. That is the PN for the Euro small 16g Subaru turbo with the 90 degree inlet.

You can see all our Genuine MHI turbocharger here:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...de=Turbo-Mitsu

And all the turbochargers that we build custom using parts that we make ourselves or from other aftermarket sources are listed in the "FP Turbocharger" Section here:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m..._Code=Turbo-FP

BOOST ON!

Robert Young
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ES450 bad TH cut.jpg (36.7 KB, 602 views)
File Type: jpg ES450 white clipped wheel.jpg (39.1 KB, 596 views)

Last edited by FPTurbo; 01-17-2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason: oops forgot to attach pics :P
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:15 PM   #61
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wow, thanks for the real info. i haven't seen solid info like this on this site for a long time
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:46 PM   #62
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Thanks for the clarification Robert! I will fit the gasket on the backside of the turbo to confirm this issue. I'll let you know and possibly take some pictures of what I find!

I guess one way of fixing the gasket issue is to trim the gasket back to fit properly? I don't know yet, but I'll figure it out if there is an issue.

As for as the "white" wheel.. What am I looking at in terms of issues here on my particular turbo? Do you think I'll be fine at ~20psi or so?

Honestly, side by side, the wheels look the same on my Blouch 20g and the ExoticSpeed one.

Sorry about the pics, they were from a pic phone.. didn't have my digi camera ready.

Ryan
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:39 PM   #63
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The Blouch should not have that ground in clip angle on the leading edge of the compressor wheel. That should be the easiest way to tell the aftermarket wheel from the MHI wheel.

Look at the pic I posted with the 2 wheels in it. Those 2 wheels do not look the same at all. If you think they look the same then I would encourage you to look a little closer than "yep both are round and have blades". Obviously they tried to make it as much the same as they could so yes, they have a strong resemblance. I think really the biggest problem with the white wheels is the material and the casting and machining process not getting the mass of the casting centered during the machine process resulting in the balance problems etc.

Anyway, look close for the clip on the leading edge, that is the easiest clue to a non MHI compressor wheel. I dunno what to tell you if you are saying that your Blouch 20g has the clip angle on the compressor, but I guess that has it's own implication? Perhaps you should clarify that before someone gets the wrong imporession about your description of the Blouch 20g and the chinese 20g wheels looking exactly the same.

Boost ON!

Robert Young
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Old 01-17-2008, 03:12 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPTurbo View Post
The Blouch should not have that ground in clip angle on the leading edge of the compressor wheel. That should be the easiest way to tell the aftermarket wheel from the MHI wheel.

Look at the pic I posted with the 2 wheels in it. Those 2 wheels do not look the same at all. If you think they look the same then I would encourage you to look a little closer than "yep both are round and have blades". Obviously they tried to make it as much the same as they could so yes, they have a strong resemblance. I think really the biggest problem with the white wheels is the material and the casting and machining process not getting the mass of the casting centered during the machine process resulting in the balance problems etc.

Anyway, look close for the clip on the leading edge, that is the easiest clue to a non MHI compressor wheel. I dunno what to tell you if you are saying that your Blouch 20g has the clip angle on the compressor, but I guess that has it's own implication? Perhaps you should clarify that before someone gets the wrong imporession about your description of the Blouch 20g and the chinese 20g wheels looking exactly the same.

Boost ON!

Robert Young
Like I said, Blouch is ONLY a comparison because its what I have sitting in front of me. I will double check when I get home.

Blouch is THE BOMB and I promote their products 100% dont get me wrong! They ARE genuine MHI parts!!

I'll post up my comments after I look at this a little further.

Thanks
Ryan
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:59 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPTurbo View Post
Here are the circled pics you asked for.

I drew a crude white line in where the edge of the DP should be. You can see how the opening extends a quarter inch past where the gasket will be. Check this by holding the gasket or DP up to the opening. This produces a sharp quarter inch lip in the turbo outlet airstream which is sort of a bad thing to do in most peoples books.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...de=Turbo-Mitsu
BOOST ON!

Robert Young
Are you saying the turbine housing is not MHI? Blouch's turbos also have this turbine design.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:06 PM   #66
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the 7cm turbine housing seems to have the design you are describing.

http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/WRX_TD05H-18G-7CM2/
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:17 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPTurbo View Post
Shiny. Pretty.


Look at the turbine outlet flange, see how the turbine bore punches out beyond the gasket surface to the O2 housing? When we first started ordering this housing they wanted to cut it that way, in fact they did cut a bunch that way, but we rejected them. We use a bevel to blend the flow into the DP and avoid the sharp "lip" for the airflow to hang up on while entering the DP. I think they cut almost 100 housings like this, they were pretty pissed off that we would not accept them. Looks like they found a home for them after all.

Keep us posted and let us know how much power you make on it!

Boost On!
Robert Young
looks like you are describing the 7cm housing. All the 8cm housings I've seen have this.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:29 PM   #68
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bump for dyno results and install pics.
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Old 01-17-2008, 08:59 PM   #69
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suscribed.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:05 PM   #70
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I see what Robert is saying about the wheel, however, it doesn't look like this one that I have is the one he was describing that "disintegrates" and falls into pieces. It looks like it will hold up fine. That, however, may not be measurable by the human eye.

I'm confident in this turbo as I believe it will hold up fine.

I want to refrain from dumbing down this turbo before I even try it.

My plan is to put it on the Mustang Dyno on Jan 28th at MZM performance here in Austin Texas.

I will definitely keep you guys updated.

Ryan
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:14 PM   #71
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If it is the disintegrating wheel, I wonder if you can replace it with a MHI 20G wheel w/out any issues. MHI 20G compressor wheel is around $120.
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Old 01-17-2008, 09:31 PM   #72
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Yeah, If something happens I'll get Mohammad at MZM to slap a MHI wheel in it... I don't think we'll have to go that far though.... We'll be fine...
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Old 01-17-2008, 10:04 PM   #73
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thanks for sharing your insight Robert. nice seeing a vendor/turbo manufacturer come in and give some information. I need one of those 2008 "Super" Greens so Tim Bailey can tune it up for me

Rhinotech could have gotten lucky and gotten one of the 40% of the white wheeled turbos that will not come apart. hopefully it works out. nice to have alternatives.
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:31 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPersman View Post
thanks for sharing your insight Robert. nice seeing a vendor/turbo manufacturer come in and give some information. I need one of those 2008 "Super" Greens so Tim Bailey can tune it up for me

Rhinotech could have gotten lucky and gotten one of the 40% of the white wheeled turbos that will not come apart. hopefully it works out. nice to have alternatives.
No, I didn't get lucky. They stopped making them that way. The damn turbo will be OK!!

Even Robert admitted that the wheel wasn't the same as the exploding ones..

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPTurbo View Post
Yours is one of the white wheels, but made after they decided to start clipping the inducer leading edges to keep it from fragging.

BOOST ON!

Robert Young
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:21 PM   #75
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I have orderd one of these, I'm a little scrrrd... but we will see how this all works out, I called exotic speed and the only true MHI part is the center section, but the guy said that out of all that he had sold since June he has had no failures. If this is true then I should feel good about this.
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