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Old 01-01-2008, 03:02 AM   #1
Wheeler Bement
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Default Timing, how much is too much

Does anyone know the maximum amount of timing the engine/equipment can handle? I notice that the stock map has a max of 42.XX so I have not gone over that, but I find my car wanting more than this in certain areas...Can I keep going?
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:52 AM   #2
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To answer this question you need to understand what the timing is actually doing.

In simplistic form:

The ideal is for the explosive force to occur just after TDC but the spark takes time to create this full combustion. Hence giving it some advance to give it time to ignite fully.

If this explosion happens too early the piston will still be travelling upwards and will cause det, too late and the piston will be 'running away' from the force of the explosion so the power will be wasted.

With std pump fuel you will find approx 25 degree (depending on compression, fuel and other factors) of total timing advance at high revs to give the fuel time to ignite for the piston to go past TDC. At lower revs, this advance will need to be less (maybe 14 degrees at 4000) for the same time to elapse.

Timing on low load sites such as the 42 degrees you mention is more about emissions than power.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:17 PM   #3
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I'm more concerned with low loads(less than 1.13g/rev) and mid RPM(2800-5000).

Are you saying 42 is too low or too high for more power? I have tried to drop it, but it turns into a little FBKC monster. maybe I need to go more...but the EGT's go higher quicker.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:29 PM   #4
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Have you logged to see how many time to see you are in the 2800-5000 at low loads?

That is part throttle / closed loop / cruise mapping.

There is another thread in here about timing on cruise and most of us seem to run 39-42 degrees of timing there but I really dont spend too much time on this area apart from to make sure it is running . Power is higher up the load range and in open loop and certainly not at 42 degrees of timing.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamix View Post
Have you logged to see how many time to see you are in the 2800-5000 at low loads?

That is part throttle / closed loop / cruise mapping.

There is another thread in here about timing on cruise and most of us seem to run 39-42 degrees of timing there but I really dont spend too much time on this area apart from to make sure it is running . Power is higher up the load range and in open loop and certainly not at 42 degrees of timing.
yes, everytime I drive the car I log.

I guess 42 is the max for now.

Last edited by Wheeler Bement; 01-01-2008 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:48 AM   #6
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I run 58 degrees of timing at cruise...
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
I run 58 degrees of timing at cruise...
interesting.

what kind of load do you see?
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Old 01-05-2008, 01:52 AM   #8
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Code:
	.22	.40	.54	.70	1.0
800	15.86	22.54	22.54	21.13	14.45
1200	27.11	39.06	33.09	28.16	17.61
1600	36.95	47.50	42.23	38.01	26.40
2000	45.04	54.88	51.72	48.91	30.97
2400	45.04	55.94	58.05	55.94	35.54
2800	45.04	54.18	56.99	54.88	34.84
3200	45.04	51.02	52.07	52.42	36.25
3600	45.04	47.85	49.26	50.66	37.30
4000	45.04	46.80	47.85	47.85	38.36
4400	45.04	45.74	45.74	45.74	39.41
4800	45.04	45.04	45.04	45.04	39.41
5200	45.04	43.98	43.98	43.98	39.41
5600	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.41
6000	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.41
6400	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.76
6800	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	40.46
I arrived at this after a lot of logging with my car. Your car may vary...
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Old 01-05-2008, 01:59 AM   #9
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Interesting...
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:18 AM   #10
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Columns below 1.0 have 0 advance. I forgot to include 7200 rpm:
Code:
	.22	.40	.54	.70	1.0
800	15.86	22.54	22.54	21.13	14.45
1200	27.11	39.06	33.09	28.16	17.61
1600	36.95	47.50	42.23	38.01	26.40
2000	45.04	54.88	51.72	48.91	30.97
2400	45.04	55.94	58.05	55.94	35.54
2800	45.04	54.18	56.99	54.88	34.84
3200	45.04	51.02	52.07	52.42	36.25
3600	45.04	47.85	49.26	50.66	37.30
4000	45.04	46.80	47.85	47.85	38.36
4400	45.04	45.74	45.74	45.74	39.41
4800	45.04	45.04	45.04	45.04	39.41
5200	45.04	43.98	43.98	43.98	39.41
5600	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.41
6000	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.41
6400	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	39.76
6800	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	40.46
7200	45.04	43.98	43.98	42.93	41.17
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
Columns below 1.0 have 0 advance. I forgot to include 7200 rpm:
Code:
    .22    .40    .54    .70    1.0
800    15.86    22.54    22.54    21.13    14.45
1200    27.11    39.06    33.09    28.16    17.61
1600    36.95    47.50    42.23    38.01    26.40
2000    45.04    54.88    51.72    48.91    30.97
2400    45.04    55.94    58.05    55.94    35.54
2800    45.04    54.18    56.99    54.88    34.84
3200    45.04    51.02    52.07    52.42    36.25
3600    45.04    47.85    49.26    50.66    37.30
4000    45.04    46.80    47.85    47.85    38.36
4400    45.04    45.74    45.74    45.74    39.41
4800    45.04    45.04    45.04    45.04    39.41
5200    45.04    43.98    43.98    43.98    39.41
5600    45.04    43.98    43.98    42.93    39.41
6000    45.04    43.98    43.98    42.93    39.41
6400    45.04    43.98    43.98    42.93    39.76
6800    45.04    43.98    43.98    42.93    40.46
7200    45.04    43.98    43.98    42.93    41.17
Is yours a 2litre wagon?
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:55 PM   #12
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2.0L w/ 147,000+ miles on it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:50 PM   #13
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have you done any compression checks lately?

what is the response like over stock? this is confirming that my car wants more, or will atleast run with more....I thought I was on the edge a few days ago becasue of FLKC being almost nothing with cold IAT...I thought it would ping like a mother when it went up 20 degrees...but nothing. it wants more
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:03 PM   #14
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My last compression test came up clean. Also, notice how rapidly the timing drops off as I reach a load of 1.0. At no point do I have abnormally high timing under boost.

I actually based this map off one of the newer 2.5 maps. I noticed that it had much more timing in the cruise area than the earlier years so I tried that on my car. It responded well, so I added more timing. My exhaust is free flowing and I have 1 step colder plugs so you may not be able to go as high. I'm also running 15.3 AFR in closed loop.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My last compression test came up clean. Also, notice how rapidly the timing drops off as I reach a load of 1.0. At no point do I have abnormally high timing under boost.

I actually based this map off one of the newer 2.5 maps. I noticed that it had much more timing in the cruise area than the earlier years so I tried that on my car. It responded well, so I added more timing. My exhaust is free flowing and I have 1 step colder plugs so you may not be able to go as high. I'm also running 15.3 AFR in closed loop.
what kind of EGTs are you getting in closed loop?
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My last compression test came up clean. Also, notice how rapidly the timing drops off as I reach a load of 1.0. At no point do I have abnormally high timing under boost.

I actually based this map off one of the newer 2.5 maps. I noticed that it had much more timing in the cruise area than the earlier years so I tried that on my car. It responded well, so I added more timing. My exhaust is free flowing and I have 1 step colder plugs so you may not be able to go as high. I'm also running 15.3 AFR in closed loop.
that's probably because the 2.5L motor NEEDS more timing.

running leaner than stoich will require more timing as well, but i've never seen anyone run as much as you. have you checked to see if it's actually making more power/getting better fuel economy?
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:22 PM   #17
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also, why not run any advance so that it can pull timing if there is any fine learning knock correction?
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:49 AM   #18
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Fuel economy tests showed an improvement. The peak of the timing is right around 55 mph steady cruise. EGT's are around 1275F 6" from the ports.

As for no advance below 1.0 load, I was getting a lot of false knock from my noisy engine (it's got good compression but it is old) and solid endlinks. If it's knocking at load that low, then I've got other problems...
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
also, why not run any advance so that it can pull timing if there is any fine learning knock correction?
because you put unnecessary strain on the bottom end. also, knock learning isn't active below a certain load. you could be doing awful things to your motor and the ecu wouldn't stop you.
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
because you put unnecessary strain on the bottom end. also, knock learning isn't active below a certain load. you could be doing awful things to your motor and the ecu wouldn't stop you.
you can change the load point...but looking back, i was confussed, so nevermind
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