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Old 01-16-2008, 07:27 PM   #1
Kastley85891
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Default WB o2 install

Wheres the best position for install? I assume last sensor before muffler, i.e. replacing the last stock one - would you then turn of the cel for original sensor?
Im going with this
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/cart.php

Is there any way to have direct input to ecu so I can log directly?

Thanks
Keith
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Old 01-16-2008, 07:48 PM   #2
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Read this thread starting with wichitalegacy's post.

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showt...t=79058&page=2

He installed his innovate in the rear O2 sensor position and wire the 5V wideband output to the ecu rear O2 sensor input. He then logs the rear O2 sensor voltage. Note that normally the rear O2 sensor ranges from 0 to 1 volt.

You definitely need to know something about wiring or else you can fry your ecu if you wire it incorrectly.

Haven't tried it myself.
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:11 AM   #3
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Your link doesn't work, but I assume you are refering to the LC-1?

If so, the Innovative Motorsport LC-1 has the ability to connect as a narrow band back to your ecu so you don't get the CEL warning

Basically, you remove the factory sensor and replace it with the LC-1 and then wire as per the LC-1's manual so that the wire for the narrow band (yellow wire form memory?) connects back to the ecu via the original sensor's connector

You can then also use the wideband as well, for logging with LogWorks or Enginuity etc by connecting it to your laptop/computer/carpc
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
Your link doesn't work, but I assume you are refering to the LC-1?

If so, the Innovative Motorsport LC-1 has the ability to connect as a narrow band back to your ecu so you don't get the CEL warning

Basically, you remove the factory sensor and replace it with the LC-1 and then wire as per the LC-1's manual so that the wire for the narrow band (yellow wire form memory?) connects back to the ecu via the original sensor's connector

You can then also use the wideband as well, for logging with LogWorks or Enginuity etc by connecting it to your laptop/computer/carpc
This is how most people would wire it.

In the case of wichitalegacy, he actually wired his wideband output into the ecu. He can then log rear O2 sensor voltage using a standard logger.

Really this is no longer necessary since enginuity supports LC-1 now. However, it might be useful for WBO2 that are not supported by enginuity.
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:53 AM   #5
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You don't want to replace the rear sensor unless you use the extra narrowband ouput on the LC-1 and splice into the rear narrowband O2 to simulate it. Log with the serial ouput for your WB and there is one more WB wire for a gauge. Otherwise get a bung welded in (this is what I did). The ECU does use the rear O2 for part of it's fuel trimming process. For a quick tune it is ok to leave the rear O2 out, but not for a perm install basis.
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
Otherwise get a bung welded in (this is what I did).
This is what I ended up doing also - because I just didn't want to touch the oem stuff

Very little cost involved too, as the bung was included with the LC-1 and it didn't take the exhaust shop long to do
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:47 AM   #7
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Dont you want your WB to be relatively close the heads, about where the first sensor is? Or does it even matter if the exhaust is a little colder downstream?


~Josh~
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Old 01-17-2008, 11:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
You don't want to replace the rear sensor unless you use the extra narrowband ouput on the LC-1 and splice into the rear narrowband O2 to simulate it. Log with the serial ouput for your WB and there is one more WB wire for a gauge. Otherwise get a bung welded in (this is what I did). The ECU does use the rear O2 for part of it's fuel trimming process. For a quick tune it is ok to leave the rear O2 out, but not for a perm install basis.
Gabedude,

I have my LC-1 installed the same way.(in place of the rear 02 sensor, using analog 1 output that was spliced into the appropriate wire on the ecu) This is on an 05 stg 2 STI with an invidia v3 catless DP, stock intake box with a K&N panel filter lightly oiled, and MAF sensor cleaned religiously, stock MAF scaling. I'm playing around with a healthy dose of AVCS to help with turbo spool, but I would assume the ecu would pull out some more fuel to get back to stoich in closed loop. I can view the voltage of the rear 02 bouncing around between 0-1v within the logger. Both the LC-1 and oem front 02 sensor match AFR's under light cruise loads. Open loop AFR's look pretty good, matching if not being close to my open loop fuel table. Little to no FBKC or FLKC.

My problem is that my car, even after a remove-the-neg-battery-cable ecu reset, is that during closed loop cruise the front 02 is always seeing 14.1-14.4 (this is once the motor is up to operating temp). My fuel learning ranges C and D are always positive (usually from 2-7% using the "vishnu" reset or not) Idle AFR's dance around 14.7 like normal. Am I suffering from the ecu defaulting to dumping in extra fuel by a presumed "cat failure"? I've read of others having this issue, but no real fix. Any thoughts?
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Old 01-17-2008, 07:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeenR View Post
I have my LC-1 installed the same way.(in place of the rear 02 sensor, using analog 1 output that was spliced into the appropriate wire on the ecu). ... I can view the voltage of the rear 02 bouncing around between 0-1v within the logger. Both the LC-1 and oem front 02 sensor match AFR's under light cruise loads. Open loop AFR's look pretty good, matching if not being close to my open loop fuel table. Little to no FBKC or FLKC.

My problem is that my car, even after a remove-the-neg-battery-cable ecu reset, is that during closed loop cruise the front 02 is always seeing 14.1-14.4 (this is once the motor is up to operating temp). My fuel learning ranges C and D are always positive (usually from 2-7% using the "vishnu" reset or not) Idle AFR's dance around 14.7 like normal. Am I suffering from the ecu defaulting to dumping in extra fuel by a presumed "cat failure"? I've read of others having this issue, but no real fix. Any thoughts?
What did you do for the rear O2 sensor heater wires? Nothing besides just disabling a trouble code? If so, you might consider joining the two wires for the rear O2 sensor heater together and re-enabling your rear O2 sensor trouble code(s). I'm pretty sure the ECU doesn't try to measure the rear O2 sensor heater impedance, like it does for the front AFR sensor heater, so you shouldn't have to add a resistor.
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
What did you do for the rear O2 sensor heater wires? Nothing besides just disabling a trouble code? If so, you might consider joining the two wires for the rear O2 sensor heater together and re-enabling your rear O2 sensor trouble code(s). I'm pretty sure the ECU doesn't try to measure the rear O2 sensor heater impedance, like it does for the front AFR sensor heater, so you shouldn't have to add a resistor.
Jon is correct here if this is what you did.

I should have added you have to jump the heater wires to make the ECU think it is heated.
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:38 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ballitch View Post
Dont you want your WB to be relatively close the heads, about where the first sensor is? Or does it even matter if the exhaust is a little colder downstream?


~Josh~
Post turbo for accuracy. Otherwise we could just use the stock front WB sensor (which is pre-turbo).

Gabe
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
What did you do for the rear O2 sensor heater wires? Nothing besides just disabling a trouble code? If so, you might consider joining the two wires for the rear O2 sensor heater together and re-enabling your rear O2 sensor trouble code(s). I'm pretty sure the ECU doesn't try to measure the rear O2 sensor heater impedance, like it does for the front AFR sensor heater, so you shouldn't have to add a resistor.
I'll try this out over the weekend. Thanks for your help guys!
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballitch View Post
Dont you want your WB to be relatively close the heads, about where the first sensor is? Or does it even matter if the exhaust is a little colder downstream?


~Josh~
Exhaust gas Temp sensor should be close, but a/f sensor can be further back. Basically each sensorhas an optimal operating temp, go below or abov this temp and it will give incorrect readings and/or just stop working completely from heat damage.
A lot of people just replace the rear sensor and use the LC-1's narrow-band output to connect back to the ecu in place of the oem sensor they replaced.

Others tend to just weld the bung in and leave the oem sensors alone.

All generally agree that where-ever you mount it, it should be BEFORE the cat converter and not after it as the cat changes the a/f ratio and your readings will be out.

I guess the most important thing to be aware of is what the sensor manufacturer suggests. If you have an LC-1 sensor from Innovative Motorsport, then IM suggest locating it after the turbo, but before the cat converter, and in between the 10 and 2 location (side/top area and not bottom), so this suggests the dump pipe would be ideal
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:10 PM   #14
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This thread is full of good things

I was attempting to do the substitution for the narrow band rear O2 but I could never get a finite answer from anyone on the sensor voltage needed to stimulate the narrowband. I can see what the voltage range should be from the factory O2 sensor. I usually reads in between 0-1v. The problem is the narrowband on the LC-1 (in its default setting) reads between 0-5v. That is too much. I posted up threads asking how to scale the voltage so it would match up and mimic the narrowband of the cars factory O2. The only replies told me that the manual states the correct voltage. Well I have read the manual over and over and over and the correct voltage is no where to be found. All it says is what the default settings should be.

I would greatly like to know the scaling you guys have used to stimulate the narrowband of the o2. Even if it means connecting up to the LC-1 and looking at the LM programer.

Thanks for any help. To the op if you are not really good at wiring I would opt to weld another bung in the exhaust. I have been working at getting mine set up for months and still cannot get it right.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:19 PM   #15
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LM Programmer is your friend. Narrowband = 0-1v.

That is all I know. I never have hooked it up this way; I just know you can.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Not-EWRX View Post
The problem is the narrowband on the LC-1 (in its default setting) reads between 0-5v. That is too much. I posted up threads asking how to scale the voltage so it would match up and mimic the narrowband of the cars factory O2. The only replies told me that the manual states the correct voltage. Well I have read the manual over and over and over and the correct voltage is no where to be found. All it says is what the default settings should be.

I would greatly like to know the scaling you guys have used to stimulate the narrowband of the o2.
Did you really read the manual? It states that, from the factory, Analog Out 1 is programmed to simulate the output of a narrowband sensor and Analog Out 2 is programmed to produce 0-5V. See the last paragraph in the excerpt, below. The picture shows the factory default programming for Analog Out 1, the narrowband simulation.

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Old 01-18-2008, 04:04 PM   #17
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Yeah I read that. Over and over and over. I didn't think the narrowband they were talking about would be the same as the factory narrowband. If I am correct the anolog 2 is the one meant to be wired into the ecu. So it confused me as to why they would use a different value for that output. This clears up a lot though thank you.

Now if I can just get my LC-1 to work again
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Old 01-18-2008, 04:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
Jon is correct here if this is what you did.

I should have added you have to jump the heater wires to make the ECU think it is heated.
Ahh, no wonder my car targets 14.1 for a few seconds and the fuel trims go wack.

Where can I find more info on jumping the heater wires?



Back to topic, you can get a switch and wire the 0-5 output to the fuel level input into the ecu. The signal goes to your cluster before the ecu so it does not mess with your gas gauge. You can log fuel level voltage and use the formula V*2+10

Do you have an aftermarket downpipe? Since your going with innovative I would just weld a new bung and use the software that came with it.

You can wire either Analog 1 or 2 into the ecu. With the LM programmer software you can program either output to be 0-5v or 0-1 or whatever.
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:49 PM   #19
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You can wire either Analog 1 or 2 into the ecu. With the LM programmer software you can program either output to be 0-5v or 0-1 or whatever.
I figured that much I just never knew that the 0-1 voltage setting would mimic the factory o2 like that.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:25 AM   #20
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If I am correct the anolog 2 is the one meant to be wired into the ecu.
No. You should use Analog output 1 to connect back to your ECU in replacement of the oem narrow band sensor that you have swapped with the LC-1 because by default analog output 1 is configured to simulate the oem narrow band sensor.

By default, analog output 2 is configured for true readings of 0v (AFR 7.35) to 5v (AFR 22.39) to be used with a wideband afr gauge or computer with datalogging software etc.


It doesn't really matter in the end, because you can hook up the LC-1 to a computer and run the LM-Programmer software and set whatever values you want for either analog output.

As for the suggestion to wire analog output 2 into the fuel level input of the ECU, I have never heard of doing that. I also don't understand the need to do it - I would think an afr gauge running from analog output 1 and datalogging from analog output 2 would be ideal.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
No. You should use Analog output 1 to connect back to your ECU in replacement of the oem narrow band sensor that you have swapped with the LC-1 because by default analog output 1 is configured to simulate the oem narrow band sensor.

By default, analog output 2 is configured for true readings of 0v (AFR 7.35) to 5v (AFR 22.39) to be used with a wideband afr gauge or computer with datalogging software etc.


It doesn't really matter in the end, because you can hook up the LC-1 to a computer and run the LM-Programmer software and set whatever values you want for either analog output.

As for the suggestion to wire analog output 2 into the fuel level input of the ECU, I have never heard of doing that. I also don't understand the need to do it - I would think an afr gauge running from analog output 1 and datalogging from analog output 2 would be ideal.
Hey thanks for making this clear as mud. You would be surprised at how little information there is out there on this topic. I am glad someone finally understood what I was talking about.
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
What did you do for the rear O2 sensor heater wires? Nothing besides just disabling a trouble code? If so, you might consider joining the two wires for the rear O2 sensor heater together and re-enabling your rear O2 sensor trouble code(s). I'm pretty sure the ECU doesn't try to measure the rear O2 sensor heater impedance, like it does for the front AFR sensor heater, so you shouldn't have to add a resistor.
wouldn't just connecting the heater wires without a resistor create a short?

I'm hooking up an LC1 on my 07 sti and want to use the simulated narrowband output to replace the rear O2 sensor. Even if a resistor isn't really required, I'd feel more comfortable having one there. What resistance do people normally use for the heater circuit? 3K ohms if I remember correctly?

Also, couldn't I use the power wire for the rear O2 sensor to power the wideband? I don't think I've seen anyone do that and was wondering if there was a reason for that.
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