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Old 01-18-2008, 12:20 AM   #1
Sausage
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Default Need info: What are my goals for tuning boost / afr / timing

I've been reading the scoobiepedia and openECU articles and am know what all the parameters do.

But I haven't found any info on what you're trying to do with the values. The first thing that scoobiepedia tells you to NOT do is tune by feel. Which is great advice, so how should you tune? What should I look for?

For example, how do you know when my wastegate dudy cycles are off, or I have too much timing, or my injector duty cycles is off?

Basically, what are my goals for the values?
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:52 AM   #2
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there are general "ranges" that people use, but in the end, it comes down to the car, the fuel, the modifications, and the preference of the tuner and owner.

wastegate duty is so weather and vehicle dependent that it's impossible to give you a standard. I've seen two identical cars, one needed 55-60% the other needed 66-70.

injector duty is mostly used for measuring headroom on injector. go over 95% for a sustained period and you risk overheating and failure of the injector.

timing decreases as load increases, and increases as RPMs increase.

A good starting point for you might be looking at some open-source maps over on osecuroms.org and see what people are doing for strategy. then, see how things impact the car. make small changes and datalog intelligently.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:12 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausage View Post
I've been reading the scoobiepedia and openECU articles and am know what all the parameters do.

But I haven't found any info on what you're trying to do with the values. The first thing that scoobiepedia tells you to NOT do is tune by feel. Which is great advice, so how should you tune? What should I look for?

For example, how do you know when my wastegate dudy cycles are off, or I have too much timing, or my injector duty cycles is off?

Basically, what are my goals for the values?
Some of this is easy.

If you're not knocking, you're not running too much timing

If your IDCs are above about 80% in the summer (which will put them higher in the winter) or god forbid above 100%, then they're too high.

The rest, the turbo guys will have to answer.
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:02 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
If you're not knocking, you're not running too much timing
It's possible to reach MBT before provoking detonation.
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:04 AM   #5
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Not on pump gas.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:31 AM   #6
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You'll know the duty cycles are off if you're seeing spiking, not reaching target boost, or you have sluggish turbo response/spool.

The ECU will generally tell you when you're running too much timing as long as you keep a decent curve. The ECU won't give full dynamic advance when it detects knocking. This works as long as you make smooth changes in the map.

Your injector duty cycles can't really be off. Your Latency, scaling and maf calibration tables can be off. You'll notice the fueling AFRs just don't happen like they are supposed to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausage View Post
I've been reading the scoobiepedia and openECU articles and am know what all the parameters do.

But I haven't found any info on what you're trying to do with the values. The first thing that scoobiepedia tells you to NOT do is tune by feel. Which is great advice, so how should you tune? What should I look for?

For example, how do you know when my wastegate dudy cycles are off, or I have too much timing, or my injector duty cycles is off?

Basically, what are my goals for the values?
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:59 AM   #7
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Thanks for the good info guys!

I was afraid of changing a value and thinking it's helping, but since I don't know enough, it was actually hurting.

So 3 things to watch for are
Knock: ECU not adding full possible timing
Boost: Spikes or slow spool.
AFRs: Keep them at a steady 11

Are there any other indications that something is not being done correctly? Anything else to watch out for?
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:14 AM   #8
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I also have another question about open source tuning:

You can't tune real time values with ecuFlash can you? Meaning every time you want to make a small change you need the flash the entire ROM?

Will that hurt the ECU if you take your time and make small adjustments?
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:52 PM   #9
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There are people who have flashed their ECU hundreds of times without problems.

You can follow the 11s afr thing if you're using the VF39.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:02 PM   #10
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I run 11.5's on my VF39 @ 20lbs of boost tapering off. That was with stock TMIC and 0 knock. I would Get a WB and do the fuel firt.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:16 PM   #11
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So is there any way to reasonably estimate your afrs? I just got a boost gauge and tactrix and if I wanna spring for the lc-1 I will have to start selling blood and sperm
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:33 PM   #12
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Oh and one more good one. how do I know what my boost targets should be?

I'm guessing this would come from a turbo efficiency chart or something along those lines?
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:28 PM   #13
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Estimating and tuning DO NOT go together

If you want to retune/reflash your ECU, then you will need to either use or buy a wideband o2 sensor.

If you can't afford to purchase an LC-1, some Dyno shops will allow you to use their wideband O2 meters (usually included in the dyno hire cost). However, this means you will then need to marry up the two seperate logs before you make any tuning adjustments.

BTW, an LC-1 + wideband sensor is only $200 (HERE) - start saving :P
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
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So is there any way to reasonably estimate your afrs? I just got a boost gauge and tactrix and if I wanna spring for the lc-1 I will have to start selling blood and sperm
don't waste your money on an LC1. it's a piece of crap. if you look on their forums, half of the posts are people having problems because their sensor died.

you can get an AEM for the same price now. it's a far better option.
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
don't waste your money on an LC1. it's a piece of crap. if you look on their forums, half of the posts are people having problems because their sensor died.

you can get an AEM for the same price now. it's a far better option.
I'm fairly sure both use the same brand (Bosch) sensor...
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:50 PM   #16
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I'm fairly sure both use the same brand (Bosch) sensor...

yup, and that is the first complaint I have ever heard about the LC-1
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #17
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My LC-1 sensor installed ~12" from the turbo has been going strong for 20k or so now.
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
don't waste your money on an LC1. it's a piece of crap. if you look on their forums, half of the posts are people having problems because their sensor died.

you can get an AEM for the same price now. it's a far better option.
LC-1 is wicked fast and has plugins for both enginuity and ST.
I log at 10 samples per second. The ECU can't keep up. The LC-1 is keeping up and bored.

Those that kill their sensors aren't following the directions. I've been daily driving with mine for 2.5 years (or whenever it was that the LC-1 was released).

The biggest downside (if you could even call it one) is that it uses a DB9 serial port.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:16 PM   #19
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The biggest downside (if you could even call it one) is that it uses a DB9 serial port.
I have an LC1 in my daily driver too, and this is my only complaint.
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:30 PM   #20
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maybe i just got a dud. i followed the directions and even confirmed a few things with tech support and still ended up with a dead sensor after 3 uses. based on the number of complaints i have found, i can't believe that everyone is using it incorrectly.

my aem which has been used for around 30k miles has never given me a hint of trouble. it has also been exposed to higher egts than most people would consider running.

in any case, back to the OP:

the most important thing to remember when tuning anything is making sure the motor is working efficiently and happily. i would say that any advice that says to run X psi or Y AFR is not ideal. every car is different- some may run better with a leaner AFR and less timing. some may like more boost. the best thing is to set your AFRs and timing to something conservative and adjust your boost. when you add boost and you don't make more power, you know you have too much. then you can adjust your AFRs the same way- if you make more power by leaning it out and everything looks good, go for it. then after you set your boost and AFRs you set your timing.

good luck.
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wage0052 View Post
I'm fairly sure both use the same brand (Bosch) sensor...
they do use the same sensor but the controller is drastically different for the LC1. there is a reason why innovative won't warranty sensors. it's because of the way they drive them.

in any case, if people are happy with the LC1, that's great. i regret buying mine and i've found enough data to convince myself there is a systemic problem with them. i was trying to prevent someone from making the same mistake i believe i made (in retrospect).
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Old 01-23-2008, 12:31 AM   #22
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Which AEM do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
they do use the same sensor but the controller is drastically different for the LC1. there is a reason why innovative won't warranty sensors. it's because of the way they drive them.

in any case, if people are happy with the LC1, that's great. i regret buying mine and i've found enough data to convince myself there is a systemic problem with them. i was trying to prevent someone from making the same mistake i believe i made (in retrospect).
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sausage View Post
Oh and one more good one. how do I know what my boost targets should be?
you should have an idea based on your car. for example, a stage 2 STI makes full boost around 3200 RPM depending on gear and begins tapering off as it approaches redline.

intelligently mapping the target boost table is critical to prevent integral windup. it can basically make tuning boost a nightmare if your targets are wrong.
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Old 01-23-2008, 06:59 AM   #24
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that for all the info. My biggest questions were

How do you know your boost targets are too high?
-A: ?
How do you know if you don't have enough fuel?
-A: ?
How do you know if you added too much timing?
-A: The ECU won't add the full dynamic advance to the primary ignition table. Your DAM will not be maxed out. Your theoretical timing will be greater then your actual timing because the engine is sensing noise and making a final correction with the feedback it gets from the knock sensor.


I'm looking for measurable parameters that tell me if I'm going to far with each. So what should I measure to make sure the car is safe in all 3 ways?
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:43 PM   #25
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I wish there were concrete rules for those questions, man. You should look into some books on the science behind tuning and the limits of various controls.

boost targets will be too high if the car cannot physically hit those points. arguably, those points will be "too high" if you're running pump fuel but targeting boost levels like a race gas equipped car would need(think FP Green at 28 psi vs 19-21).

AFRs and EGT is a good way to tell if you're too rich or lean, but once again, this all depends on what you WANT the car to do. If you don't know what you want it to do, you should be studying the theory aspects.

too much timing, a lot of people say "until it knocks" but this is incorrect. timing is best used when it imparts the maximum amount of energy on the crankshaft at a certain point after tdc. pump gas often limits this particular aspect of tuning ignition timing, but on race gas, the limit is very much attainable and thus, a complete understanding of VE must be possessed in order to extract maximum torque.

I am by no means an expert. What I try to do is understand the parameters, controls, and desired outcome. from that point it is trial and error, and a lot of data analysis.

when tuning boost I like to log MRP corrected, IAT, coolant temp, boost error, td integral, and primary wg duty cycle.

for timing, I log at least total timing, kc advance, fine correction, feedback correction, and IAM. for fuel I log injector duty, injector pulsewidth, and AFR. The other normal items like RPM, load, etc. go with all of these, too.
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