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Old 01-19-2008, 04:14 PM   #1
controler
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Default 2.0 Liters: What timing are you running below 1.0 load?

I am trying to get rid of all knock, in doing so I am finding a majority of my time spent driving is below a load of 1.0. I also get the most knock through here at random times. While most of the time it's FLKC of -1.05, sometimes it is FBKC of -2.11. Mods are gutted uppipe and Maddad DP.

.70 .86 1.0
1600 28.87 24.65 16.91
2000 30.98 29.92 23.59
2400 41.17 36.95 24.30
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:37 PM   #2
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You may have a very difficult time getting rid of all knock. There should be little issue with some knock under light load.

How much timing is being pulled?
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:17 PM   #3
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Is that TOTAL timing or is that just BASE timing. i.e., does that include dynamic advance?
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:19 PM   #4
controler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd2005 View Post
Is that TOTAL timing or is that just BASE timing. i.e., does that include dynamic advance?
My advance table doesn't begin until the load reaches 1.0, then it is nomalized at 8.09.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:42 PM   #5
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I think it's normal. How often do you get a knock? 1% of the time? 3%?

If it is consistently knocking 50% of the time then I would say that you need to find out what's going on since that timing doesn't look bad.

I can't remember, but where is the CL->OL transition on this car? Is it at 1 g/rev in this rpm range?
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:12 AM   #6
NemesisWRX
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I am currently having the same knock with my car around those load/rpm areas. I have a Titek UP and DP and a "stage 2" type tune. I have lowered the timing around those areas .5 to 1 deg. and right after this I got a BIG knock event that pulled -6.11 deg of FBKC, but after that it was absolutely fine and the FLKC even started to go positive, something which almost never happened before (when my IAM was less than 16 of course).

I would say that my car knocks in this area 5% of the time, which isn't too bad I guess. My issue here though lies with the fact that I am getting just enough knock to mess with my IAM value, which makes the car run like crap. When that big knock event registered the IAM finally settled on 13 and stayed that way until I reset the ECU. It usually settles out to 15 though which isn't terrible, but I'd like to keep it at 16.

I was thinking that I could MAYBE up the range where FLKC and FBKC operate (1.1/2300rpm would do it) to try to correct this completely without retarding my timing so much that it affects driving. I would like some opinions from somebody that is more knowledgeable than me however before I attempt anything like modifying the way my car sees knock. Sorry if it seems like I'm threadjacking, but it seems like we have the same problems and I'd like to offer any input to try to figure out the best way to deal with it.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:18 AM   #7
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pwrx (2002 WRX, stock tune + stage 2 parts) on enginuity.org had this issue with his IAM dropping from 16 to 4. He thought it was random but after carefully logging, it turned out that his IAM was dropping right around 1 g/rev at various rpms between 2000 and 3000 rpm. It was very localized.

I believe he changed his CL to OL delay to 0 and he dropped his base timing a few degrees in this area. That prevented his IAM from dropping but IIRC, he still had some random knock here.

If you have a WBO2 with a dedicated logger, I would suggest trying to log AFR in this region. It might be a lean tip-in. You will need to log using your dedicated logger (not enginuity) to get the resolution needed to catch it.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by controler View Post
My advance table doesn't begin until the load reaches 1.0, then it is nomalized at 8.09.
I used to have an advance map the same way, and experience IAM drop with some regularity. I switched to a more stock looking map and the IAm drop went away...I'm not sure what details create this cause-effect (or even if it's an illusory correlation), but it might be something to try. Best of luck.

-Mike
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Old 01-25-2008, 02:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manbike26
I used to have an advance map the same way, and experience IAM drop with some regularity. I switched to a more stock looking map and the IAm drop went away...I'm not sure what details create this cause-effect (or even if it's an illusory correlation), but it might be something to try. Best of luck.

-Mike
I've noticed on the 16bit ecu that it has some sort of KC attached to the throttle angle where it'll slowly ramp up. Also the KC value will taper from zero to whatever value you had set. This will create a sharp drop then rise in timing which can cause some FBKC which will reduce your IAM.

There is really no reason to use this kind of map anymore now that we can log FBKC and FLKC.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:03 PM   #10
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Code:
<---> 0.24    1.00
700  7.07	14.80
1400 9.88	17.97
2000 10.23	25.35
2500 11.99	32.03
3000 13.40	33.09
with flat KC of 9.49* starting at 1.00g/rev
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:05 PM   #11
controler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
There is really no reason to use this kind of map anymore now that we can log FBKC and FLKC.
I've read the arguement, for and against, but for me its easier to maintain one table instead of two.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
I've noticed on the 16bit ecu that it has some sort of KC attached to the throttle angle where it'll slowly ramp up.
The "ramping" you would notice when logging KC is because the ECU interpolates between cells. This occurs with all 2d and 3d tables.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:52 PM   #13
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I was getting false knocks from my solid endlinks. I just edited my range for knock monitoring and my problem went away. I don't monitor for knock below a load of around 1.0 and my IAM stays rock solid. I also don't have any advance below a load of about 1.0 either.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:19 PM   #14
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I think you will find that your issues are only when you are shifting, or rapid throttle plate changes. I spent weeks, countless hours of logging, tweaking, etc and could never get it to go away. it was never "consistent". I went up and down with timing plus or minus 5 degrees from stock it was always there....you will never get rid of it. . Much like you, when I was on both ends of the + - timing window, my feedback knock became more and more common, so I gave up.
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Old 01-26-2008, 02:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by controler View Post
I've read the arguement, for and against, but for me its easier to maintain one table instead of two.
At this point in time there are absolutely no valid reasons for running an artificial flat max advance table. You're crippling a fundamental component of the ECU's knock response strategy doing this. You only need to maintain one table if you set the base advance map back to stock values. The max advance map is the only one that anyone should be modifying.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
I think you will find that your issues are only when you are shifting, or rapid throttle plate changes. I spent weeks, countless hours of logging, tweaking, etc and could never get it to go away. it was never "consistent". I went up and down with timing plus or minus 5 degrees from stock it was always there....you will never get rid of it. . Much like you, when I was on both ends of the + - timing window, my feedback knock became more and more common, so I gave up.
Do you have a fast logging WBO2? I noticed that with the stock fuel injector tip-in tables that I would get a lean spike during rapid throttle changes. If you log using the ecu sampling interval, you won't catch it. It was definitely visible using the Zeitronix logger and I had another friend with an LGT who could see it using his LC-1 and street tuner logger.

The good thing about ST is that when you log with a WBO2, it collects data at the speed of the WBO2. The ecu data is then just filled in where it would normally be blank.
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Old 01-26-2008, 05:31 PM   #17
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I keep the Dynamic Advance table stock and modify the Base Timing table.

The rough correction sensitivity appears to be dependent upon the value in the DA Table so I didn't want to touch that. Also, If I kept the Base Timing table stock and tried to keep all my modifications in my DA table, I would end up with 0 and negative values in my DA table.

On other people's tunes, it's easier to flatten their DA table in the high load region and keep the low load region near stock. I know that it is not necessary but it seems like people are accustomed to look for a constant KC in their WOT logs. On a tune that is not knocking (or not knocking significantly), I haven't seen any detrimental effect.
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Old 01-27-2008, 02:01 AM   #18
Wheeler Bement
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd2005 View Post
Do you have a fast logging WBO2? I noticed that with the stock fuel injector tip-in tables that I would get a lean spike during rapid throttle changes. If you log using the ecu sampling interval, you won't catch it. It was definitely visible using the Zeitronix logger and I had another friend with an LGT who could see it using his LC-1 and street tuner logger.

The good thing about ST is that when you log with a WBO2, it collects data at the speed of the WBO2. The ecu data is then just filled in where it would normally be blank.
I do not have a WBO2 yet. I have caught some lean spikes from time to time though, but I don't think it is the sole cause of the FLKC, especially at low rpms, or even high rpm and low loads.
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