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Old 01-22-2008, 09:33 PM   #1
gling
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Default A:F Map opinions

Hey guys, while I'm not that new with Subies, I do not know much about tuning them.

I won't go into the details yet but can you guys comment on my A:F map? - please find my A:F map attached below. Is it too lean up top? I intentionally left out most of the details as I do not know what information is relevant at this point nor do I want to stir up a ruckus.

Having said that, I won't say anything about who tuned it but I will gladly provide any technical information as best I can (based on information that was provided to me by the tuner and the EM map file).

I am not looking to start a flame war, "fan-boi" club, heated argument, et cetera but rather, I would like your response based on experience to the matter. I have the utmost confidence in the person/place that tuned my car but I would like to be better informed before I approach them with my concerns with my A:F map and the way my car behaves.

Please feel free to ask of any additional - but relevant - information to help with the forming your conclusions/opinions.

Cheers.

Gerald.

P/s: I've done some reading/searching/research, but I figured an actual example might help shed more light in my case.

Edit: A:F values were 12.4 above ca. 6250 rpms and the average boost value was 18.5

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Last edited by gling; 01-22-2008 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Added relevant numerical values for A:F and boost based on the ASCII file provided to me.
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Old 01-23-2008, 12:24 AM   #2
crazymikie
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if you post a log of the timing curve, that would be really helpful

if the car is running okay with that tune, then so be it. it's not what i would personally do, but there is more than one way to tune a car.

it does look like you are getting a bit of a boost spike which is probably worth resolving.


mike
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:48 AM   #3
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Mike,

I do not have a timing log at the moment but I'll see what I can do to get one.

Good to know that there are more than one ways to tune a car.

The tune seems ok but between 4000 and 5000 rpms, there is a lull in the powerband (based on butt dyno) where the car seems to hit a plateau before starting to pull again to redline.

Never thought much about the boost spike though.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers.

Gerald.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:19 AM   #4
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What's your setup?
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:40 AM   #5
gling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
What's your setup?
My setup is as follows:

EJ257 SB with WRX (non AVCS heads)
TGV deletes
Phenolic spacers
TXS FMIC
Perrin turbo inlet
GT Spec UEL headers
Fully catless TB
Port, polished, and coated 18g - 7cm^2 hotside
GM BCS
Parallel fuel lines
660 injectors
Walbro fuel pump
NGK One Step Colder plugs (BKR7E)

Am I missing anything else? Some of them are probably non-relevant.
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Old 01-23-2008, 01:13 PM   #6
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You have the injectors and the pump.. That's what I really wanted to see.
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Old 01-23-2008, 03:35 PM   #7
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is this race gas? or pump fuel? It looks a little lean up top for straight pump gas, but your tuner might be compensating with some timing adjustments in that area.
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Old 01-23-2008, 03:50 PM   #8
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93 Pump gas, and yes, he said that he adjusted the timing. Would one have to pull or add timing to adjust for the lean conditions in said region?
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:05 PM   #9
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what is the compression of the motor? did you have the heads/combustion chambers matched or did you just put the heads on?

with a motor efficient motor, i'd expect a leaner AFR.

what are your egts like?

the fact you are feeling a hesitation or plateau could mean pulled timing or it could be the way it was tuned. without seeing the timing curve, it's hard to say.

can you get some datalogs?

also- what was that AFR measured with?
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Old 01-24-2008, 03:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymikie View Post
what is the compression of the motor? did you have the heads/combustion chambers matched or did you just put the heads on?

with a motor efficient motor, i'd expect a leaner AFR.

what are your egts like?

the fact you are feeling a hesitation or plateau could mean pulled timing or it could be the way it was tuned. without seeing the timing curve, it's hard to say.

can you get some datalogs?

also- what was that AFR measured with?
I am not sure what the compression is but it should be decent of not good as the block was put together with a new bottom end 15,000 mi. ago and has not been pushed hard. The heads were taken apart and cleaned too.

Can't really tell you the EGTs as my probe is in the UP. However, the temperatures don't seem to be any higher than before when it was running an average of 11.4:1 under boost. Though, I can't really be certain as I don't go full boost a lot to check for the EGTs; yeah I know, I drive like a grandma.

Your point on the hesitation and plateau is noted and I'm kinda bummed. The result of the new tune gained higher numbers up top but I felt a little jaded in the mid-range. Also, I don't think I can get the timing data but I'll try.

I am going back for a retune or to talk to my tuner tomorrow to see if the car can be tweaked a little more to my liking. But before I did that, I wanted to know whether the A:F could have been on the high side.

From the responses thus far, it seems that although the A:F map might be a bit on the high side towards the end, it may not be detrimental as other factors such as timing could be adjusted to account for it. Is this a safe assumption?

A:F readings were recorded with a wideband A:F gauge stuck into the tailpipe. Is this what you wanted to know?
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:44 PM   #11
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Yes, your AFR is lean. You can send me a copy of your ROM and I would be happy to look at it, and see if I can point you in the right direction to fix it.... or get you in a better position to make correct adjustments on your own. Just shoot me a PM.

John
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:03 PM   #12
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(Please forgive the long story, but I am also trying to give the OP a good idea of what all I did)....

I went yesterday, and tweaked gling's tune for him. While the numbers are on the lean side for my liking, there was zero knock, and 5.5+ KC factors..

When he told me it felt very laggy, i downloaded the map, and the first thing I saw was that at 2500 RPMs the target boost was 13.7, then shoots to 19.13.. So I made 2500 RPMS 19.13 target boost as well. I also increased his WG duty cycles by 4% at 2800-4400 rpms.. This yielded the following results..

(Load) (AFR) (rpm) (IDC) (Timing) (KC) (PSI) (WGDC) (Thrtle %)
3.61 12.63 2468 18.51 11 5.5 4.35 58.82 97.25
3.91 11.71 2531 21.06 10 5.5 5.08 65.1 99.22
4.2 11.25 2653 22.61 9.5 5.5 6.38 73.73 100
4.68 11.25 2725 26.74 9.5 5.5 7.55 78.82 100
5.2 11.25 2833 30.82 9.5 5.5 9 71.37 100
5.72 11.25 2927 34.97 7.5 5.5 11.03 71.37 100
6.68 11.25 3084 44.08 6.5 5.5 14.95 70.59 100
7.41 11.25 3230 51.68 5.5 5.5 17.85 70.59 100
7.41 11.25 3386 54.89 5.5 5.5 20.31 65.49 99.61
6.84 11.25 3552 52.63 5.5 5.5 20.89 56.08 99.22
6.41 11.25 3692 51.03 6 5.5 19.01 47.45 99.22
6.25 11.25 3840 50.79 7 5.5 17.12 50.2 99.22
6.61 11.25 3978 54.47 8 5.5 16.4 55.29 99.22
6.95 11.25 4160 61.07 8 5.5 16.98 61.57 99.22
7.14 11.25 4286 66.74 8 5.5 17.99 63.53 99.22
7.32 11.25 4409 71.48 8 5.5 18.72 64.31 99.22
7.34 11.25 4641 74.35 8 5.5 19.3 62.75 99.22
7.3 11.25 4783 75.81 8 5.5 19.59 58.04 98.43
7.17 11.25 4918 77.42 9.5 5.5 19.3 55.69 98.43

As you can see, boost spike & recovery from 3800-4400 rpms...

Then, he had some Tip In issues, so I scaled back 3 clicks from the Tip in from 0-15%, and then another 3 clicks from 9.8 - 33%. I also changed the WGDC & Target Boost RPM Scalars so that it had a slightly broader range down low. This helped, but still had overboost...

(AFR) (load) (rpm) (Ign) (IDC) (KC) (psi) (WGDC) (Thrtle Ang)
15.85 3.35 2789 12.5 20.51 5.5 1.89 21.18 78.04
12.06 3.9 2943 10.5 24.88 5.5 3.48 29.8 100
11.37 4.57 3018 9.5 28.26 5.5 5.37 36.47 100
11.25 5.03 3200 7.5 34.32 5.5 8.42 44.71 100
11.25 5.51 3345 5.5 38.22 5.5 11.03 51.37 100
11.25 6.66 3454 5.5 47.1 5.5 14.51 59.61 100
11.25 7.39 3532 5.5 55.27 5.5 17.27 65.1 100
11.25 7.65 3792 6 58.97 5.5 19.73 62.35 100
11.25 7.33 3920 7 60.66 5.5 20.31 55.29 100
11.25 7.12 4120 8 60.22 5.5 19.73 49.02 100
11.25 6.81 4276 8 61.98 5.5 17.56 50.98 100
11.25 6.98 4467 8 64.76 5.5 17.12 54.51 100
11.25 7.08 4584 8 70.39 5.5 17.12 58.43 100
11.25 7.29 4693 8 73.44 5.5 18.28 60.78 100
11.25 7.4 4886 9.5 77.3 5.5 18.86 61.96 100
11.25 7.25 5030 10.5 77.13 5.5 19.15 61.18 100
11.25 7.04 5183 11 77.26 5.5 19.15 60 100
11.25 6.83 5296 11.5 77.19 5.5 18.72 60.39 100
11.25 6.68 5474 12 77.96 6 18.43 60.78 100

After that, I looked at the Turbo Dynamics Prop Gain, and Changed at 2.94 from 7.41 loads down by 2psi to 6.0. I also Added 1 deg of timing from 3.28 - 6.0 loads from 2400-3600 rpms.

(AFR) (load) (rpm) (Ign) (IDC) (KC) (psi) (WGDC) (Thrtle Ang)
14.7 3.05 2692 18 18.38 8.5 1.45 38.43 96.47
12.52 3.38 2776 17.5 20.73 8.5 2.9 44.71 100
11.83 3.87 2904 13 24.78 5.5 4.06 53.33 100
11.37 4.42 2974 11.5 28.55 5.5 6.24 61.96 100
11.25 4.85 3133 11 33.42 5.5 7.98 68.24 100
11.25 5.18 3219 9.5 36.39 5.5 10.88 73.33 100
11.25 5.74 3358 8 43.71 5.5 13.35 73.33 100
11.25 6.79 3461 6 51.68 5.5 17.27 73.33 100
11.25 7 3580 6 54.98 5.5 19.01 72.94 100
11.25 7.09 3744 6 57.51 5.5 19.88 67.06 100
11.25 7.06 3930 7.5 59.53 5.5 19.73 60 100
11.25 6.85 4052 8 60.51 5.5 18.72 56.08 100
11.25 6.72 4208 8 61.95 5.5 17.85 57.65 100
11.25 6.66 4363 8.5 65.15 5.5 17.27 60.39 100
11.25 6.8 4526 8.5 66.62 5.5 17.41 63.92 100
11.25 6.99 4658 8.5 71.55 5.5 17.85 66.27 100
11.25 7.06 4798 8 74.72 5.5 18.43 67.06 100
11.25 7.01 4937 9 75.84 5.5 18.86 67.84 100
11.25 6.93 5030 10.5 76.19 5.5 18.57 68.24 100
11.25 6.67 5226 11.5 76.93 5.5 18.43 69.02 91.76

This helped a little more with the boost spike, and felt a nice power gain from the 1 deg of timing...

After that, I Added 1 deg of timing at 3.28 - 6.0 loads from 2400-3200 rpms. Increased WG Duty by 3% at 100% throttle from 4400-6800 rpms... Added .5 timing to 7.2 load at 3200-3600 rpms. Added 1 deg of timing from 4.8 to 6.0 loads at 4400 & 4800 rpms.

(AFR) (load) (rpm) (Ign) (IDC) (KC) (psi) (WGDC) (Thrtle Ang)
12.17 3.35 2615 16.5 18.72 8.5 3.34 46.67 80.39
12.29 3.58 2674 13.5 21.11 5.5 4.35 53.33 100
11.48 3.91 2754 12.5 22.75 5.5 5.22 61.96 100
11.48 4.33 2870 11.5 26.33 5.5 6.82 68.24 100
11.25 5.02 2944 11 30.04 5.5 8.27 76.86 100
11.25 5.32 3107 9.5 34.43 5.5 10.74 77.65 100
11.25 5.68 3198 8 38.89 5.5 13.78 73.33 100
11.25 6.53 3320 6.5 46.74 5.5 16.4 73.33 100
11.25 7.1 3440 6 53.28 5.5 18.86 71.37 100
11.25 6.69 3628 6.5 53.41 5.5 20.02 64.71 100
11.25 6.59 3718 7 53.15 5.5 19.59 58.82 100
11.25 6.54 3854 7.5 53.44 5.5 18.57 58.82 100
11.25 6.48 4010 8 56.47 5.5 17.56 60.78 100
11.25 6.63 4178 8.5 59.81 5.5 17.27 64.31 100
11.25 6.9 4278 8.5 63.89 5.5 17.56 67.06 100
11.25 6.94 4462 8.5 68.12 5.5 17.85 69.41 100
11.25 6.99 4618 8.5 70.03 5.5 18.28 70.59 100
11.25 7.19 4708 8 74.32 5.5 18.72 70.59 100
11.25 7.12 4845 8 76.48 5.5 19.15 69.41 100
11.25 6.98 4986 10 76.29 5.5 19.01 67.45 100
11.25 6.81 5119 11 76.45 5.5 18.72 67.45 100
11.25 6.61 5270 11.5 76.46 5.5 18.28 68.63 100
11.25 6.46 5392 11.5 77.07 5.5 17.99 69.41 96.86

Due to not having a wideband, I did not want to do anything extensive, but his ign timing is so low and his KC's are so high, that it was well within a safe range to put that timing in...

I wanted to help spool after this, so I took out a little bit of fuel down low... Set a/f to 13.44 from 3.36 - 5.5 loads at 2000 - 2800 rpms.

After that, the only other maps were wg duty cycles adjustments to smooth out the boost spike... The car still does not like to be romped from a very low RPM (2k in 4th gear), and if it does, it will boost spike and then recover... But i believe this to be alot of the lack of timing... I didnt want to do any more without a wideband... And now a 3rd gear pull is very smooth..

(AFR) (load) (rpm) (Ign) (IDC) (KC) (psi) (WGDC) (Thrtle Ang)
11.25 4.9 3407 11 37.1 6 7.4 3.8 31.76 69.8
11.25 5.44 3524 8.5 41.35 5.5 10.59 3.96 40 93.33
11.25 5.89 3653 7 46.76 5.5 13.06 4.06 46.67 100
11.25 6.59 3786 7 54.39 5.5 14.36 4.22 54.9 100
11.25 7.05 3874 7.5 59.5 5.5 16.54 4.38 61.96 100
11.25 7.44 4065 7.5 67.64 5.5 18.72 4.48 63.14 100
11.25 7.58 4176 8 70.38 5.5 19.59 4.52 56.86 100
11.25 7.61 4350 8 72.38 5.5 19.59 4.56 50.2 100
11.25 7.26 4545 8 72.72 5.5 18.28 4.58 50.98 100
11.25 7.21 4652 8 72.45 5.5 17.85 4.6 53.33 100
11.25 7.05 4777 8 75.69 5.5 17.56 4.62 55.69 100
11.25 7.11 4983 10 77.6 5.5 17.7 4.68 58.43 100
11.25 6.93 5060 11 77.38 5.5 17.85 4.76 60.39 100
11.25 6.77 5230 11.5 76.99 5.5 17.99 4.8 61.96 100
11.25 6.58 5342 11.5 76.9 5.5 18.14 4.84 63.14 100

I am always welcome to criticism on my tunes, and would value others opinions on the changes I have made to his map. I would really like to do alot more tuning on this car, as it feels as though it is just asking for it to have some fuel put back in, and lots of timing added to it...
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:11 PM   #13
gling
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Thanks for the write-up Noah. I'll see if I can get WB soon.

Cheers.

Gerald.
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:25 PM   #14
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I have tried the rich to lean fuel route and it does not work very well. A flat or ramped curve seems to work better. The engine needs more timing as the RPMs increase, this is by mechanical design. When you lean it out up top, you have to decrease timing, which leads to high EGTs at high RPM and more chance of high end knock.

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Old 02-04-2008, 03:12 PM   #15
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Gabe, not to jump OT, but thank you for your tuning abilities... I have used alot of your maps in the past as basemaps... And will be using your 07 STi setup in a little while when I tune another friend's limited...
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:28 PM   #16
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at the top end of my 93 octane map the afr is in the 12s.

there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
at the top end of my 93 octane map the afr is in the 12s.

there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Thanks for your input; much appreciated.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:58 PM   #18
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nperkins, I think you might be spiking because you have target boost of 19.13 at 2500rpm. Can an 18g make that much boost at that rpm on a 2.5liter without avcs?

Have you ever read on the romraider website about how the stock boost control system works?
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:30 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
at the top end of my 93 octane map the afr is in the 12s.

there is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Or even 14s if you're running meth
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
I have tried the rich to lean fuel route and it does not work very well. A flat or ramped curve seems to work better. The engine needs more timing as the RPMs increase, this is by mechanical design. When you lean it out up top, you have to decrease timing, which leads to high EGTs at high RPM and more chance of high end knock.
It's true that more timing advance is needed as RPM increases, but not as much as you might expect. This is because AF mixture turbulence increases with RPM and that helps the mixture burn faster.

Knock is less likely at higher RPM because torque is falling after 5000 RPM (on most tunes). Using an AF mixture which is richer than the best torque AFR slows down combustion speed, which has the same effect as retarding spark advance.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php
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