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Old 01-28-2008, 10:59 AM   #1
savageblitz
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Default Getting started on tuning

I've got enginuity and ecuflash running on my laptop and its hooked up to my subaru 03 wrx. I know I need to start data logging as my first step to tuning. But what next?

Could anyone give me some pointers/links/resources on further information especially those that gives good guidance on tuning methodologies?

How do u guys learn about tuning your cars? trial and error? Thanks for any help..
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:59 PM   #2
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BUMP, I'm in the same boat as the OP. still learning
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:06 PM   #3
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Go pick up hartmans book How to tune and modify engine management systems. Should get you started off on a good note
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:27 AM   #4
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I strongly recommend Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish rather than the Hartman book. The Hartman book used a large number of pages to convey very little information.
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Old 01-29-2008, 07:47 PM   #5
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I will be starting a "from scratch" tuning thread to document my learning experiences tuning a 07 STI.

I currently have two, and when I acquire another one here within the week, I will start from scratch all the way to a rotated turbo kit.

Videos, maps, logs and tips galore.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:52 AM   #6
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^^ Once qoncept has got things sorted, this would be great on the new site
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:28 AM   #7
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Thanks guys for the reference books. All those reference books only teach you the concepts. Having a tuning methodology is different - it ties everything together.

Anyway, Remnex, I can't wait to see your thread. :-)
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:19 AM   #8
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^^^ same goes to me...
got the tactrix, got the software, and even have some logs of my subie, but dont know where to go from here.......
all i find on the internet is the faq for like the enginuity and how to use it and that kind of stuff........
cant wait 4 the thread Remnex !!!

Last edited by z38er; 01-31-2008 at 11:31 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:45 PM   #9
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If you don't mind me threadjacking for a sec, where did you guys go to purchase your cable, software, etc? I'm sorta in the same boat. I have a jdm ecu, so most companies don't support me and my only choices are ecutek and utec delta, which are both damn near $1000 after tuning...I'm hoping that this route is much cheaper and easier, but we'll see...
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:05 PM   #10
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I got the cable from tunertools.com. The discount code "enginuity" will get you 10% off.

The software is downloaded for free.
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:26 PM   #11
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Ok, thanks a lot!
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remnex View Post
I will be starting a "from scratch" tuning thread to document my learning experiences tuning a 07 STI.

I currently have two, and when I acquire another one here within the week, I will start from scratch all the way to a rotated turbo kit.

Videos, maps, logs and tips galore.
There is already a thread about this by me on osecuroms.org. I had alpha and beta testers with maps posted. The final result was a very safe and powerful 07 STI Stage 1 tune.

Also, I have another thread on my 06 WRX that shares much of my steps in making that Stage 1 map as well.

http://osecuroms.org

However, a nice thread about how to "protune" a car correctly would be a good idea. I do see this as a potential disaster for some people as there are many things you can and will miss, especially if the first car you try to tune is a turbo car. You can get away with many mistales on an NA car, not on a turbo car though. The 07 STI ECU code is by far the most complex and has many "gotchas" compared to older ECUs Subaru has used. It is not a good car to learn to tune on. Once tuned correctly though, it is an awesome machine.

Gabe
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabedude View Post
There is already a thread about this by me on osecuroms.org. I had alpha and beta testers with maps posted. The final result was a very safe and powerful 07 STI Stage 1 tune.

Also, I have another thread on my 06 WRX that shares much of my steps in making that Stage 1 map as well.

http://osecuroms.org

However, a nice thread about how to "protune" a car correctly would be a good idea. I do see this as a potential disaster for some people as there are many things you can and will miss, especially if the first car you try to tune is a turbo car. You can get away with many mistales on an NA car, not on a turbo car though. The 07 STI ECU code is by far the most complex and has many "gotchas" compared to older ECUs Subaru has used. It is not a good car to learn to tune on. Once tuned correctly though, it is an awesome machine.

Gabe
Well, I appreciate the support... I have a STI limited that is completely catless and runs wonderful. Have a little encouragement rather than despair my good sir.
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savageblitz View Post
I've got enginuity and ecuflash running on my laptop and its hooked up to my subaru 03 wrx. I know I need to start data logging as my first step to tuning. But what next?

Could anyone give me some pointers/links/resources on further information especially those that gives good guidance on tuning methodologies?
Go to the cobb forums and download the Street tuner manual. It goes through step by step on what to tune in what order.....there is also Excel spreadsheets with lots of data and formulas to help you out.

http://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums/...ad.php?t=31091

And get airboys spreadsheet to make analyzing the data easier..its called log file interpolation

http://www.ken-gilbert.com/wrx/enginuity/

Basically the process goes (BEFORE READING THIS REALIZE I AM NOT A TUNER & IM JUST REPEATING MOST OF THIS FROM THE COBB MANUAL OR FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE)(PS: NEITHER MY 16G'd WRX OR MY Green'd STI HAS BLOWN UP YET )

I assume you already have ECUFLASH to be able to read/write your ROM. I like ECUFLASH's interpolate functions. If you want to taper your boost linearly from peak to redline all you have to do is enter in 20psi @ say 3000rpm then 12 psi at 7000rpm then you highlight all the cells from the 20 down to the 12 and go to edit, interpolate vertically and it will interoplate linearly between 20 and 12 and fill in all the cells for you. It also has interpolate horizontally. Both of these funtions are great to make nice smooth timing maps. There are of course keyboard functions for these but i dont remember them off the top of the dome.

1) dial in boost ( Turbo Dynamics and boost control explained by Tea Cups )
to do this you should
- reduce your timing (by adding boost you will increase the engine load and be in different cells than before)(i took out 5-10* on my whole map)
- decrease your AFR (add fuel)(yours is probably fine if its a stock fuel map, its probably already ~9.5-10:1)(i left the stock values in mine when i started turning up the boost)
- increase your boost by changing the target boost and wsgtdc tables (for reference i had my td04 peaking at 20psi and tapering to ~12 at redline)
- use the turbo dynamics to "fine tune" the boost. the turbo dynamics may seem backwards to you. A postive boost error value means you are underboosting (boost error = Target boost - actual boost) and negative value means overboost.
- its best to try and tune boost in colder weather, since it will creat the greatest boost spike, then you know when its hotter you will always be under that.
- i believe most people will run the td04's peaking at 17-18psi on pump gas and then taper to 12-14 at redline.
- you can increase it till you start knocking then back it down or just throw in 18psi as your target boost and dial in the wsgt dc to get you there

2) dial in timing
- start adding in timing
- you can do this several ways. either keep your base map the way it is and add all your timing to the advance map, leave your advance map as it was stock and add all timing to the base map, make your advance map one value across the board and only change your base map. people have different views on the different methods. no matter which you choose varying one map is easier than housekeeping both of them. there is an excel sheet on the cobb site that you can copy/paste your base/advance values in and it adds them together and shows you your total timing. Or you can just setup Airboy's spreadsheet to do this also.
- when tuning timing remember that if your IAM isnt set to 16 you wont be using all of your advance map.
- when you start knocking back it off a little (i dont know how much a little is)(on my car once i started knocking i pulled 2*, i dont know how much power i lost from that or if that is even a good enough safety margin, but its what i went with)
- - if you use airboys spreadsheet and the timing interpolate tab it will plot your load and timing on the same graph......from my experience your timing should be a mirror image of your load.....low load = high timing high load = low timing. For reference my 02 WRX is running somewhere between 45-55* at low load, 12-15* in the midrange, then tapering up to 30* at redline.....this is total timing

3) dial in fuel (!! YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS WITHOUT A WIDEBAND !!)
- from looking at other peoples maps (cobb AP maps and enginuity maps) i set mine to 11:1 in the appropriate cells.
- some tuners have expressed that they havent seen significant gains in going from AFR of 11:1 up to 12.5:1, while other tuners tune all their cars to 12:1. Without a wideband i wouldnt venture above 11:1.

As long as your EGT's stay below 1800* F (not sure if they can go higher, but my 16G wrx goes a little over 1700* and when i had my td04 i was ~1600*), your AFR is ~11:1, and you arent knocking you should be good to go.

What is your setup anyhow?

Like gabedude pointed out, if you register on http://osecuroms.org/ you should be able to find a map for your exact setup. I didnt do this though because i wanted to go through the process myself and see/feel what my changes were doing.

Last edited by Phatron; 02-06-2008 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:03 PM   #15
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^^^ Having a second "beater" car that happens to have a built block to learn on helps too.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:10 PM   #16
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Oh did i forget to mention that....

Get back to work......

PS: I am gonna go through all these runs on the dyno when i put the aqumist on. I want to see the gains/losses from all these situations. I have yet to see any data like this on nasioc. Everyone always tries to run on the edge of knock, i wanna know what that extra degree of timing really buys you, or that extra 0.1 lean AFR.

1) baseline
2) remove 10* degrees of timing across the board
3) add 5* back
4) add 4* back
5) add 1* back (returning to baseline)
6) decrease AFR to 10:1
7) AFR 10.5:1
8) AFR 11:1
9) AFR 11.5:1
10) AFR 12:1
11) return AFR to baseline
12) decrease boost, add timing
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Old 03-04-2008, 09:57 AM   #17
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Phatron,

Thanks for your detailed write-up on getting started. Here's my list of mods on my 03 EU WRX:

STI injectors
PE1825 turbo
APS 70mm CAI
stock downpipe
3 inch decatted downpipe
JDM STi engine (swapped)
Methanol injection

It's quite a heavy list of mods and I was previously running on ECUTek but I've decided to take a hands-on approach to tuning and not rely on another tuner.

I've since swapped my ecutek ecu for an STi ecu. Since I've previously swapped my wrx injectors for STi ones. this has helped me in a sense that I now do not need to do injector scaling (does that makes sense).

So, I've instead got started on scaling my MAF (using williaty MAF scaling method). So far, I'm still scaling my CL MAF. It's been going well so far, idles well and no more P0171 (too lean) CELs.

I'm going to scale my OL MAF next. Once that is done, am I right to follow the steps you have listed:
1. Dial in Boost
2. Dial in Timing
3. Dial in Fuel

The thing is I have a Blitz SBC-id boost controller. Do I need to dial in boost then, since my boost is controlled by my boost controller? Any parameters that I need to change?
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:40 PM   #18
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Phatron...does your 'below 1800F ' guidelines apply to all the EJ* motors? or do certain variations have a little more headroom than others? ie ej205 vs ej207 vs ej257
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:01 PM   #19
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It is absolutely wrong to dial in timing before fueling. Your AFR affects the flame speed. Your flame speed affects knock probability. You MUST get fueling close before bringing timing up to the final values.

Tune boost and fueling with very, very conservative timing. Once you're finished with both boost and fueling, bring in as much timing as the car will stand.
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:00 AM   #20
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It is absolutely wrong to dial in fueling before timing. Your timing affects knock probability. You MUST get timing close before bringing the AFR up to the final values.

Tune boost and timing with very conservative fueling. Once you've finished with boost and timing, lean it out as much as the car will stand.

--

OK, but seriously... why is one approach better than the other?
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:08 AM   #21
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If you tune timing before fuel, then adjust fuel, it's very possible that you'll make a change to fueling that will result in severe knock and possibly the loss of the engine.

Either will work (though if you do timing then fuel, you'll have to come back to timing) but fuel first is MUCH safer.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:32 AM   #22
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Do you know why that is? I mean, it's clear that if fuel or timing or boost goes too far, then detonation happens and the engine is at risk... but why is it safer to pick a fuel map and slowly add timing until you find the limit, as opposed to picking a timing map and slowly lean out the AFR until you find the limit?
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:13 AM   #23
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Here is the strategy I tune with. Everyone does it different, but what is important is you find things that provide you with consistent, yet safe, results.

So, let us assume we are doing a simple stage two tune.

- Setup - First Flash -

- Remove all CL/OL delays as needed.
- Set all TA/DA maps to 6.5 to 7.0 degrees from 1.30 load on to max load.
- Set all base timing maps to one map and remove TA + 2.0 degrees from the same load points.
- Set WGDC tables to 0

- First, Boost -

- Query the ECU for Atmospheric pressure, manifold pressure, FBKC, FLKC, RPM, Engine Load, Engine RPM and LC-1
- Do a pull in fourth gear to redline watching AFRs and knock
- Graph the boost for the car in the log using manifold pressure - atmospheric with engine RPM to find where you natural boost curve is and what your spring pressure is. I do this for two reasons, one I want to see what the turbo does with no help and I also what to see what effect the exhaust system has on spool. For example, one of my 07 STIs has a EVO 2 and another has a full 3". One requires considerably less WGDC in order to achieve the same target boost.
- Take the information and start throwing WGDC at the car and see how it responds. I set all my maps the same and give my max WGDC 5% more on any given RPM on 95% throttle.
- Dial in the WGDC until your high gear is maintaining the boost levels that you are requesting.
- From here, log pulls in the first, second and third. Graph these and see what WGDC is need on the MAX WGDC map is needed to hit target boost or close to it in the those gears.
- Once boost is done, move onto fuel.

- Second, Fuel -

- Using the information from your boost map look at your AFRs and take note of what RPM and load the boost is coming on. I usually will choose around 2-4 psi depending on the turbo.
- This is where people differ in style. I choose to keep a 12:1 - 12.5:1 around spool area and gradually fade to 11.1:1 - 11.5:1 AFRs at redline. Figure out what works best for you and your gas.
- Looking at your log, choose the AFRs from the wideband that are withing .10 - .15 of each other. Then using the target AFR, let's say 11.1:1, take that value and divide it to get your scaler. Using 11.1 with a current AFR of 10.5:1 we get a value of 1.057. So, take the load ranges and RPM and multiply by that value.
- Now, you should notice that the afrs can dance around up to a whole AFR point. That's OK. Just roll with it and dial it in.
- Once you have that done, scroll over the maps and look for stupid stuff. For instance, let's say you are running 11.0 around the map, and there is a point where it is 11.5 and then back to 11.0 for whatever reason. Even it out. Some may feel this, other may not. I prefer to find a consistent value that gives me the acceptable ranges.
- Do a couple pulls and look for knock and graph your boost and AFRs on the same graph. Try to fade rich while boost is start to move but keep a little lean while spooling.

- Third, Timing -

- After boost and AFRs are dialed in, go in for timing. You want to KC, timing and knock with load and engine RPMs. From here do a couple of pulls in high gears to get a decent load.
- I usually add in half the timing I pulled at the start and see how the car reacts. Slowly add timing in and again look for timing jumps that can cause knock with heavy jumps. For example, 10 degress to 25 degrees.
- Once you find a happy balance between timing use ECU edit to interpolate things a little bit and call it done.
- I usually leave timing conservative until I can get the car on the dyno.

- Last, Loose Ends -

- Before I am done, I like to just 'drive' the car. Watch how it behaves and the different load ranges the driver goes through.
- Watch the AFRs to make sure you do not need some fine tuning based on the way the person drives. Watch for knock. Cruise on the freeway to ensure that there is no cruise knock.
- Get money.

Phew! I just spilled that out and I know I am missing some things. Just go slow and things will work out just fine.

Don't worry about things like AVCS and whatnot until you feel comfortable with the basics.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:59 AM   #24
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^ Supernice
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:48 PM   #25
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Excellent information... subscribed.
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