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Old 01-31-2008, 07:08 PM   #1
Sausage
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Default Is this knock normal?

I got an updated map my tuner and did some runs. I'm a little worried about the knock feedback correction I'm seeing in the logs. What do you guys think:

HTML Code:
Pedal	Load	RPM		FBKC	FLKC	IAM		TB	PSI	WGDC	BE	TDIC
13.33	1.63	1915		0	0	1		-10.34	-6.09	81.57	-4.41	4.32
100	1.81	1950		-1.4	0	1		18.64	1.74	81.18	16.69	4.32
100	1.97	1970		-1.4	0	1		18.74	3.63	81.18	14.93	4.32
100	2.11	2012		-1.05	0	1		18.89	5.22	81.18	13.46	4.32
100	2.29	2085		-1.05	0	1		19	6.67	81.18	12.09	4.32
100	2.51	2128		-0.7	0	1		19.06	8.13	81.18	10.75	4.32
100	2.8	2188		-0.7	0	1		19.12	9.87	81.18	9.29	4.32
100	3.17	2262		-0.35	0	1		19.25	11.75	81.18	7.47	4.32
100	3.45	2341		-0.35	0	1		19.37	14.36	81.18	4.78	4.32
100	3.53	2403		-1.75	0	1		19.45	16.83	81.18	2.48	4.32
100	3.61	2508		-1.75	0	1		19.45	18.43	80.78	0.85	4.32
100	3.69	2593		-1.4	0	1		19.45	18.43	80.78	0.69	4.32
100	3.64	2698		-1.4	0	1		19.45	18.57	80.39	0.56	3.94
100	3.44	2718		-1.05	0	1		19.45	17.99	75.29	-0.28	4.51
100	3.3	2896		-1.05	0	1		19.45	17.12	69.41	1.42	5.28
100	3.39	3030		-0.7	0	1		19.45	17.27	65.49	-0.14	5.22
100	3.57	3028		-0.7	0	1		19.45	16.69	63.92	0.39	5.22
I'm getting wastegate flutter in 5th as I build boost, so this is what's going on. Is this normal?
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:13 PM   #2
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I see two knock events, the one at 1.8 load and 1950 rpm (could just be from the high load/low rpms) and then another one at 3.6 load and 2403 rpm.

The first one could just be the engine shock or even tip-in when going full throttle. could be hard to tune that out, you should try to isolate that area and play with timing a bit or enrich the tipin slightly. The second one is definitely knock under high load and the timing needs to be adjusted.

BTW: What is this a 4th or 5th gear pull from 2000 rpms??? Is this something you normally do or just for logs?
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:16 PM   #3
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Cool, thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure if I"m supposed to see that or not. So anything over 1.0 FBKC is a knock event?

I did it in 5th gear because I was having problem with the original tune and the car studdering when I did this. So I got an updated map with lowered WGDC and logged to see what was happening

Last edited by Sausage; 01-31-2008 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:48 PM   #4
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Every time your car detects a knock event, FBKC drops by the knock correction increment. This increment appears to be 1.4 for your car, but it is tunable. 1.4 - 2.0 are common values on stock cars.

After the knock event, the FBKC slowly counts itself back up to zero. So every time you see FBKC drop (more negative) by 1.4, the ECU detected a knock event. If it drops by 2.8, it detected two knock events between the current log record time stamp and the previous log record time stamp.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Every time your car detects a knock event, FBKC drops by the knock correction increment. This increment appears to be 1.4 for your car, but it is tunable. 1.4 - 2.0 are common values on stock cars.

After the knock event, the FBKC slowly counts itself back up to zero. So every time you see FBKC drop (more negative) by 1.4, the ECU detected a knock event. If it drops by 2.8, it detected two knock events between the current log record time stamp and the previous log record time stamp.

Oh I get it, now I understand. I wasn't sure where those numbers were coming from. Cool. Thanks for the good explanation.

So that means I should talk to the tuner (again) about lowering the timing?
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master2192 View Post
I see two knock events, the one at 1.8 load and 1950 rpm (could just be from the high load/low rpms) and then another one at 3.6 load and 2403 rpm.

The first one could just be the engine shock or even tip-in when going full throttle. could be hard to tune that out, you should try to isolate that area and play with timing a bit or enrich the tipin slightly. The second one is definitely knock under high load and the timing needs to be adjusted.
It's common to get brief knocking when you stab the throttle. Due to its brevity, this usually isn't considered harmful. You might disable knock detection below 2K RPM to avoid pulling timing. The second knocking appears to coincide with a boost spike. I'd focus on reducing that spike instead of reducing spark advance.
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:12 PM   #7
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^thanks for the info. But I thought a boost spike is when you go above your target boost and then drop back down. From the look of the log, I'm never above target boost.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:34 PM   #8
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you would need to adjust you boost control settings if your not hitting boost target.
and then the timing would be wrong for the boost you want to run no?
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:19 PM   #9
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Question here, is 1.40 FKC occasionally on the car fine or acceptable or definitely harmful??? Does 1.40 of FKC would be able to destroy an engine in a short term???

Some of the first 04 STi were pinging audibly when they first came out, what compare with the 07/06 STi ECU would be the amount registered by the ECU FKC detected??? I donít think 1.40 is audible. Is it??
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:30 PM   #10
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It's not a 1.40 knock, it's one knock that pulls 1.4 of timing. Meaning for my perticular map, every knock count pulls 1.4 degrees.

I talked to the tuner and he claims it's no big deal
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:39 PM   #11
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Well its not really a big deal if it happens once in while at wot. But if the ecu is constantly pulling timing as you drive around then you would defiantly want to look into the problem. I agree with master2192 about the tip-in tuning thou. Looks like you might be getting a bit lean with the onset of boost. What are your afr's that will tell you a world of info as to whats going on.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:17 AM   #12
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I might not worry too much about the first knock as much as the second. If it was a fluke, maybe no big deal, but it shouldn't do that too often. If it does happen often it should be learned out in FLKC over time. Now if that doesn't happen perhaps there are some knock learning ranges that need to be adjusted.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #13
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it might have been overboost that caused the correction
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausage View Post
^thanks for the info. But I thought a boost spike is when you go above your target boost and then drop back down. From the look of the log, I'm never above target boost.
It's true, that would be the deffinition of a boost spike.

however, i would talk to your tuner anyway. That boost seems high for a 2.5L on the VF39. What intercooler are you running? What is your boost at redline?

I don't know your setup, but dyno run after dyno run has shown me that I can get more power-reliably with less heat soak- with approx 17.5psi peak and 13.5 at redline than anything higher. Actual desired boost level depends on the exhaust restriction. the lower the restriction, the lower the desired boost.

Sure I can get more torque on ONE dyno pull with more boost. But pull after pull at higher boost levels shows more and more timing being pulled or lowering power due to excessive heat soak and screaming high egts. When I was a rookie tuner I thought that the more boost I could hold longer the more power I could make. I was very very wrong. TMIC's would be so hot, water would flash to steam when I sprayed it down. If you are running a TMIC I would be you'd suffer from the same thing after a long pull.

-Dominic
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #15
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Thanks D

i'm running a ssac fmic with Pnped Exhaust manifold & UP, then titek DP and bosal 3".
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KitoAutoSport View Post
It's true, that would be the deffinition of a boost spike.

however, i would talk to your tuner anyway. That boost seems high for a 2.5L on the VF39. What intercooler are you running? What is your boost at redline?

I don't know your setup, but dyno run after dyno run has shown me that I can get more power-reliably with less heat soak- with approx 17.5psi peak and 13.5 at redline than anything higher. Actual desired boost level depends on the exhaust restriction. the lower the restriction, the lower the desired boost.

Sure I can get more torque on ONE dyno pull with more boost. But pull after pull at higher boost levels shows more and more timing being pulled or lowering power due to excessive heat soak and screaming high egts. When I was a rookie tuner I thought that the more boost I could hold longer the more power I could make. I was very very wrong. TMIC's would be so hot, water would flash to steam when I sprayed it down. If you are running a TMIC I would be you'd suffer from the same thing after a long pull.

-Dominic
This looks like a typical log of what you would do to mimic an MBC response with WGDC. The boost error and WGDC shows this. Although you may want to line up your boost targets to be more "consistent" in the low end, throwing a butload of WGDC in the low end is fine. He hits target boost just fine and it tapers like a madman after that. I target 20 PSI peak and taper. There is nothing wrong with that. It just needs a little timing pulled, maybe .5-1 degree in the trouble spots.

The point is, the high boost is at such a low RPM, then it tapers. I do not think he is trying to hold 18 PSI to redline. It is still well within the efficiency range of the turbo.

You cannot judge a tune by that short of a log and not looking at the map. You have no idea how much timing is being run or what the AFR is.

Gabe
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:15 PM   #17
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if i post a log can you guys help me out i got a problem with knock
http://www.box.net/shared/xjamqvakok

Last edited by phillepe; 05-18-2008 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:04 PM   #18
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please! I need feedback.
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:30 PM   #19
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what turbo do you have phillepe? running 24 psi at 6000rpm...

yeah your IAM is down and your pulling 11* at redline on top of that....

go get a tune ASAP
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillepe View Post
if i post a log can you guys help me out i got a problem with knock
http://www.box.net/shared/xjamqvakok
Do NOT do any more logs.

Go find a tuner. When you do logs, start slowly. Tune closed loop first and then tune 2000-3000 rpm, 2000-4000 rpm, 2000-5000 rpm, 2000-6000 rpm, 2000-7000 rpm.

Your fueling is WAAAYYY off. You have over -14% AFR learning D, you are bumping into the 300 g/s limit and the 5V MAF limit. You need a good tune to take care of the AFR learning and the 300 g/s limit and you need to dial down boost to take care of the 5V limit.

Last edited by mickeyd2005; 05-18-2008 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:03 PM   #21
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On a little different topic. How did you post that graph? I have one that I want you guys too look at, but I don't know HTML...
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeyd2005 View Post
Do NOT do any more logs.

Go find a tuner. When you do logs, start slowly. Tune closed loop first and then tune 2000-3000 rpm, 2000-4000 rpm, 2000-5000 rpm, 2000-6000 rpm, 2000-7000 rpm.

Your fueling is WAAAYYY off. You have over -14% AFR learning D, you are bumping into the 300 g/s limit and the 5V MAF limit. You need a good tune to take care of the AFR learning and the 300 g/s limit and you need to dial down boost to take care of the 5V limit.
+1. That log looks AWFUL. Something is really wrong with the tune, or you have a big boost leak or something. Whatever it is, you need to get it worked out before driving your car hard anymore.

23psi is a lot. Back it off! Get your tuned worked out first at a more reasonable boost level.

You are maxing out your MAF. You got 2 knock events after you maxed at 300g/s. You are almost certainly running stupid lean at that point. That plus the -14.84 % AFR learning...
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FXTMatt View Post
On a little different topic. How did you post that graph? I have one that I want you guys too look at, but I don't know HTML...
to post text out of excel that is tab spaced....make all word/number lengths 5 digits or less.....then type [ code ] "paste text in here, dont type this" [ /code] without the spaces....you get

Code:
"paste text in here, dont type this"
To attach images....upload them to photobucket or some other hosting service....they have pre-written links for you that you can just copy/paste into nasioc, but its the same as the [ code ] but its [ img ] [ /img]
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:38 PM   #24
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thanks guys, tuner is sending new map... BTW turbo is DOMIII 850's Perrin FMIC Invidia DP HKS exhaust
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:05 PM   #25
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FXTMatt's log

Code:
Time	LOAD	RPM	IAM	IGN	IDC	IAT	KC	MAF	MRP	WGDC	THROT
0	0.94	2126	1	39.5	10.44	91	4.5	33.37	-1.45	25.88	20.39
234	0.96	2148	1	39	10.63	91	4.5	34.37	-1.31	26.27	20.39
469	1.24	2382	1	30.5	14.62	91	4.5	49.82	2.32	34.51	100
719	1.36	2526	1	29	17.08	91	7.5	58.8	3.19	40.39	100
953	1.49	2671	1	25.5	19.15	91	7.5	67.36	4.5	48.24	100
1203	1.63	2771	1	22	21.84	91	6	76.82	5.8	56.86	100
1437	1.78	2893	1	19	24.45	91	7	87.57	7.4	62.35	100
1672	1.91	3056	1	17.5	26.5	91	7	98.76	9	70.59	100
1906	2.03	3198	1	15.5	29	91	7.5	108.94	10.3	79.61	100
2156	2.11	3253	1	14.5	29.66	90	6	114.85	11.03	76.86	100
2390	2.16	3307	1	14.5	30.39	90	6	119.33	11.17	74.9	100
2640	2.17	3412	1	14.5	30.94	90	6	122.27	11.17	74.12	100
2875	2.18	3502	1	14.5	32.55	90	6	126.13	11.32	75.29	100
3109	2.23	3519	1	14	32.73	90	6	130.94	11.46	76.47	100
3359	2.24	3616	1	14.5	34.89	90	6	136.11	11.46	79.61	100
3594	2.24	3777	1	15	37.59	90	6.5	138.75	11.32	78.04	100
3828	2.25	3890	1	15	40.01	90	6.5	144.61	11.32	75.69	100
4078	2.27	4017	1	18	41.1	90	9	153.1	11.17	73.73	100
4312	2.25	4157	1	16	42.21	90	9	153.43	11.17	71.76	100
4562	2.23	4214	1	15	42.27	90	9	156.8	11.17	68.24	100
4797	2.19	4387	1	16.5	44.46	88	9	157.8	11.03	64.71	100
5031	2.21	4466	1	17.5	46.48	88	9	163.21	10.88	61.57	100
5281	2.2	4580	1	18	46.77	88	8	168.02	10.74	58.04	100
5531	2.2	4701	1	16	47.94	88	6	172.92	10.88	53.73	100
5750	2.22	4820	1	17	48.83	88	5	177.86	10.88	48.63	100
6000	2.19	4938	1	18.5	49.86	88	4	178.62	10.88	43.14	100
6234	2.19	5010	1	19	50.18	88	3	180.13	10.74	39.61	100
6484	2.2	5166	1	21	52.39	88	1.5	188.68	10.74	32.55	100
6719	2.16	5270	1	20	67.98	88	-0.5	188.26	10.45	27.06	100
6953	2.18	5374	1	20	70.81	88	-1	193.93	10.45	20.78	100
7203	2.14	5439	1	20	69.94	88	-2	195.95	10.3	16.47	100
7437	2.1	5553	1	22	69.63	88	-1	193.09	9.87	14.51	100
7672	2.07	5704	1	24	71.46	86	-0.5	194.29	9.58	13.73	100
7922	2.06	5803	1	26.5	71.6	86	0	201.98	9.29	12.94	100
8156	2.01	5905	1	29	70.42	86	0	195.88	9.14	12.94	100
8390	1.99	5986	1	31	71.55	86	0	197.49	8.85	12.16	100
8625	1.96	6083	1	33.5	72.79	86	1	197.89	8.85	11.37	100
8875	1.94	6210	1	33.5	72.31	86	0	202.34	8.71	10.98	100
9125	1.92	6285	1	34.5	73.52	86	0	201.51	8.85	10.2	100
9359	1.89	6369	1	35.5	73.7	86	0	201.1	8.71	9.02	100
9594	1.85	6505	1	36	74.36	86	-0.5	199.06	8.71	8.63	100
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