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Old 02-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #1
turbohardtop
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Default Does Torco concentrate work?

Sorry to bring this question up again. I was wondering if someone has proven that Torco really works on the dyno and if the octane that it produce is close to what it claims. Thanks.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:00 AM   #2
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I didn't dyno it, but I can tell you from my logs that it works
IAM difference with a half (or full) can of torco and 93 is 16 vs 8! (yes, JDM ECUs don't like US octane)
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:08 PM   #3
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It absolutely works. Maybe not as optimistically as they advertise (1 can +10 gal =104oct) but it does work.

One drawback that not everyone knows about. It leaves a orange residue all over your spark plugs and the exhaust side of your turbo. Some report that it doesn't affect anything but it's enough for me to stop using it for now. I keep a can in the car in the event that I don't have access to 93 oct or I happen to throw in bad gas in to the tank.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:18 PM   #4
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Used cans of it on my cross country trip as gas gets a little sketchy in the midwest. Definitely works.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:37 PM   #5
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Power increase is from more boost + timing. No changes in fueling.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
It absolutely works. Maybe not as optimistically as they advertise (1 can +10 gal =104oct) but it does work.

One drawback that not everyone knows about. It leaves a orange residue all over your spark plugs and the exhaust side of your turbo. Some report that it doesn't affect anything but it's enough for me to stop using it for now. I keep a can in the car in the event that I don't have access to 93 oct or I happen to throw in bad gas in to the tank.
As long as you don't use it every tank, you'll be fine. My roommate did this on his chipped 1.8t, and after about 6 months it killed his cat. Of course he's running catless now, so he doesn't have that problem.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zumble View Post
It absolutely works. Maybe not as optimistically as they advertise (1 can +10 gal =104oct) but it does work.

One drawback that not everyone knows about. It leaves a orange residue all over your spark plugs and the exhaust side of your turbo. Some report that it doesn't affect anything but it's enough for me to stop using it for now. I keep a can in the car in the event that I don't have access to 93 oct or I happen to throw in bad gas in to the tank.
As indicated in the above responses, the Subaru platform responds well to Torco. There was an actual octane test (using a real knock engine) done a few years ago with 10 gallons of 91 CA gas and 1 32oz can of Torco. It resulted in a R+M/2 of 96. That is a significant gain, and can make a significant difference in power if tuned for it. Over they years I have experimented with it with great success, and find it cheaper and eaiser then adding Toluene.

The downside mentioned about the orange coloring of the exhaust componets is true, and is a result of the MMT in the mixture. I have ran significant quantities of this in a Subaru motor (on the order of 15-20 gallons of Torco, or 60+ cans) without any problems. Obviously YMMV, but the residue has yet to prove harmful in my case, but then again I was running catless.

Cheers,
Jeff Sponaugle

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-13-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:34 PM   #8
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Torco doesn't work.

Why? Because with price increase it now costs I think more than straight 100 octane to run.

Why? Because WI is cheap. Kit is like 300 bucks and water is like what, FREE?


I did run a torco tune for 96 octane before, and I keep around a can in my trunk in case I fill up with bad gas. But I see no reason to run it on a daily basis.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:46 PM   #9
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Thanks for all replies.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:46 PM   #10
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Thanks Verc. My question is how much torco are you guys running? I know torco is one of the main components in Sunoco GT PLUS. I called Sunoco and the rep said that is how they are able to get such high octane out of unleaded fuel. One can just doesn't add up.... Even one can of C16 won't do what they were advertising.

As for as the dyno sheet, what kind of tune was that? clearly shows that the ECU is pulling a lot timing with pump gas. I bet knock sensors were going nuts and egt's were high. Makes me feel good about buying a meth kit.

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Old 02-13-2008, 05:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verc View Post
Torco doesn't work.

Why? Because with price increase it now costs I think more than straight 100 octane to run.

Why? Because WI is cheap. Kit is like 300 bucks and water is like what, FREE?


I did run a torco tune for 96 octane before, and I keep around a can in my trunk in case I fill up with bad gas. But I see no reason to run it on a daily basis.
That is an interesting, and perhaps bold statement. To say that it does not work then describe how the price makes it not competitive, but then not describe it's inability to work is facinating. It works fine. Your suggetion that it might not be cost effective may have merit, but I do not think it justifies the statement that it does not work.

A can of Torco is about $15. Adding said can to 10 gallons of 91 octane nets about 96 octane. A gallon of 100 octane race fuel is somewhere from $6.50 to $8.00. Assuming linear octane enhancment (which is generous due to the true blending values):

9 gallons of pump fuel plus 1 gallon of 100 octane would net you 91.9 octane.
8 gallons of pump fuel plus 2 gallons of 100 octane would net you 92.8 octane.
7 gallons of pump fuel plus 3 gallons of 100 octane would net you 93.7 octane.
6 gallons of pump fuel plus 4 gallons of 100 octane would net you 94.6 octane.
5 gallons of pump fuel plus 5 gallons of 100 octane would net you 95.5 octane.

The reduction of price in purchasing only 5 gallons of 91 (5 * $3.30/gallon) plus the purchase price of the 100 octane in 5 gallons (5 * $7.00/gallon) nets you a total cost of $18.50.

This assumes an linear blending value, and that you can find 100 octane for $7.00 in small quanities, and that you carry it with you.

Clearly Torco does work, at least to some degree.

When comparing to water injection, you would also need to include the cost of the equipment, and most of all the strength of the failsafes. Remember that I am a big fan of water injection and meth injection, but you have to use good failsafes. If you put torco in your tank, there is no need for any further failsafes. With a WI system you will want a real flow based system to determine if boost cut or a map switch should be enabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidwin View Post
Thanks Verc. My question is how much torco are you guys running? I know torco is one of the main components in Sunoco GT PLUS. I called Sunoco and the rep said that is how they are able to get such high octane out of unleaded fuel. One can just doesn't add up.... Even one can of C16 won't do what they were advertising.
You cannont compare the idea of mixing a race fuel with that of adding Torco. Torco (MMT) does not have a linear blending octane value. Take Tetra-ethyl lead for example (leaded race fuels). You may see a 10 octane gain in a leaded fuel from only 3-4 grams/L of TEL. This clearly would not mean that 8 g/L nets you 20 octane. The octane effect is non linear to say the least.

There are unleaded race fuels that use a lot of MMT, which is evident by the orange deposits on your spark plugs.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:31 PM   #12
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I agree. I have had customers ask to add a can on the dyno. I can normaly get 20 to 30whp more out of a setup as long as it has enough turbo. However.. It really clogs and coats the crap out of the engine. I saw the inside of a V8 JDM Engine after a guy ran Torco on every tank for a year. The Carbon and buildup had to be chipped off the pistons with and the valves had huge growths of deposits on it them. It really makes a mess.

Clark
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie View Post
I agree. I have had customers ask to add a can on the dyno. I can normaly get 20 to 30whp more out of a setup as long as it has enough turbo. However.. It really clogs and coats the crap out of the engine. I saw the inside of a V8 JDM Engine after a guy ran Torco on every tank for a year. The Carbon and buildup had to be chipped off the pistons with and the valves had huge growths of deposits on it them. It really makes a mess.

Clark
Interesting... I ran it for a while as well, but I also ran a LOT of meth and water, so perhaps the water really does keep things clean!

Ah the V8 JDM motors.... yum!

Jeff
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Interesting... I ran it for a while as well, but I also ran a LOT of meth and water, so perhaps the water really does keep things clean!

Ah the V8 JDM motors.... yum!

Jeff

I ran gtplus for a solid two years and remember pulling off the head. The cylinders were perfect. Not one sign of detonation and this was up to 28 psi. I do remember everything being orange, from the exhaust wheel, plugs, etc.

That being said, obviously Sunoco is doing more than just adding additives in their fuel. The Sunoco rep i spoke with said they haven't found any way to get more than 104 octane out of unleaded fuel. I researched others and found pretty much the same thing. Only way to get that high of octane in unleaded fuel is with MMT. Now lead gas is completely different. I wonder why straight torco would cause so much build up while race gas with it doesn't...

The original point of the question wasn't really to ask how much power we stood to make, but would torco drop IDC to acceptable % like 85% instead of 95-100%. Tony has torco and i'm putting in SMC. Seeing a dyno comparison with only the torco additive definitely shows a lot of timing left on the table...... Too bad we don't have any dyno with before and after meth without any protune involvement... I bet meth would probably make pretty close in power considering the timing benefits but might lose to torco since the a/f is probably leaner with torco than vs meth.

When i caculate the cost of both, after 10 months of pump gas and torco, my SMC kit should be about even. Then after that it's 1.75 per tank vs 5.50 a tank of additive. I didn't factor failsafe because my goal is to safely push 17-18 psi and if i gain extra power that's fine by me.

Sid
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Interesting... I ran it for a while as well, but I also ran a LOT of meth and water, so perhaps the water really does keep things clean!

Ah the V8 JDM motors.... yum!

Jeff
That was going to be my question. I'm planning on runing 1/3 to 1/2 a can of torco at every fill up soon. I also have h20/meth injection. As far as the build up, do you think the two off set?

on a side note, there are a LOT of people running torco in every tank up in Ak because the gas is so horrible. To the best of my knowledge no one has had any problems.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:48 PM   #16
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I have a Torco map that gets 20 HP and 30 ftlbs more than my 91 octane map just by adding a little timing
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleblix View Post
That was going to be my question. I'm planning on runing 1/3 to 1/2 a can of torco at every fill up soon. I also have h20/meth injection. As far as the build up, do you think the two off set?

on a side note, there are a LOT of people running torco in every tank up in Ak because the gas is so horrible. To the best of my knowledge no one has had any problems.
+1

I run torco in EVERY fill up and have for 2 years. Best octane we get here is 90, so my Torco mixture gives me about 93 oct give or take. I have a Torco race map I run at the track, 1/4 tank 90 oct + 1 32 oz Torco. On my regular maps, I run 13.019 sec, on my Torco race maps I run 12.865 sec. No AWD dyno here, so I go by the times and the butt dyno. yes, Torco makes a difference.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:33 PM   #18
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I use it every tank with a fill up of 91 oct at altitude, great for knock surpression, if I don't put it in and do a pull I get slight knock in the 4500-5500 range every time, with it I can even turn the boost up a little and get Zero, also the smoothness and responsiveness is much better
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:47 PM   #19
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BTW: Here is the lab result for 1 can of torco in 10 gallons of 91 octane:



This was done by a gentleman on the Corvette forum in 2004.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmike View Post
I have a Torco map that gets 20 HP and 30 ftlbs more than my 91 octane map just by adding a little timing
And a bit of boost

The stuff definitely works but it takes a slightly different tuning approach than most race fuel I've tuned with. I generally find the power gains from Torco are to be had in the form of extra boost and a touch of timing. Leaning things out doesn't do much good in my experience.

BTW, my favorite race fuel to date is VP 109. Its unleaded and oxygenated so it allows for great power with slightly richer a/f levels. I also haven't seen any orange residue... not too sure what they're using to get 109 octane without lead.

-- Ed
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verc View Post
Torco doesn't work.

Why? Because with price increase it now costs I think more than straight 100 octane to run.

Why? Because WI is cheap. Kit is like 300 bucks and water is like what, FREE?


I did run a torco tune for 96 octane before, and I keep around a can in my trunk in case I fill up with bad gas. But I see no reason to run it on a daily basis.
You contradict yourself. You say torco doesn't work, but then you say you used it (and still use it.) I think what you meant to say was, torco isn't an economical solution to the problem of limited octane. It DOES work, it's just expensive. Those are two very different things.
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Old 02-14-2008, 04:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktalon606 View Post
You contradict yourself. You say torco doesn't work, but then you say you used it (and still use it.) I think what you meant to say was, torco isn't an economical solution to the problem of limited octane. It DOES work, it's just expensive. Those are two very different things.
It's not really that bad. I like it because it's a lot more foolproof than a WI system. If you really, really wanted to use WI the same way as you'd use torco, it would cost you about $500-600 to get a good system with a proper controller, failsafe, etc. I buy torco in 5 gallon cans, which are about $250 shipped. It used to be less than $200. Even at $250, you're looking at roughly 39 cents per ounce of torco. In my experience, benefits are noticeable at about 1oz per gallon of gas, and if you want the full "race gas", it takes about 3oz per gallon- which is what the octane test above shows.

So, basically- it adds 39 cents per gallon (or $5.50 per fill-up) of gas for some benefit, and about $1.17 per gallon (or $16 per fill-up) of gas if you are looking for race gas.

To come back to the WI system- you're probably going to get similar performance with straight water and the 1oz per gallon of torco, and the same (or better) performance if you do 50/50 meth/water. Now, assuming you'd run ONLY water and just use the torco as a light octane booster, let's see how long it would take for the WI system to be more economical than torco.

If you're only going to inject water, it would take over 100 tanks of gas before WI was cheaper than torco. And that's not including the cost of buying distilled water, which is a good idea if you want the nozzles to stay clean.

If you're going to inject 50/50 meth, it would take about 30 tanks of gas, again not including the cost of the meth.

Now, since I don't run either all the time- I drop in some torco if i get bad gas, and switch to my dedicated torco map when I want to have fun- it would take me a LOOOOONG time to go through that many tanks of gas. For me, torco is easier, more foolproof, AND more economical.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:59 PM   #23
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I got the Torco unleaded tested.
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verc View Post
Torco doesn't work.

Why? Because with price increase it now costs I think more than straight 100 octane to run.

Why? Because WI is cheap. Kit is like 300 bucks and water is like what, FREE?


I did run a torco tune for 96 octane before, and I keep around a can in my trunk in case I fill up with bad gas. But I see no reason to run it on a daily basis.
hhmm you've got a point there...

how much is a can of torco ??
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flatfour562 View Post
I got the Torco unleaded tested.
Interesting.. Any idea if it is parts/million in terms of atomic percentage, or is that biased with weight? (by molar or weight)

Typically MMT concentrations are 18mgMN/L.

Specific Gravity of Torco is .74, so it is .74g/cc.

1cc = .03 fluid oz, so 32 oz of Torco is 946cc. So 1 can of Torco is 700gs. If the parts/million is based on weight, 1143 ppm = .001143, which means 700gs would have .80g, or 800mg Mn.

If you were to add 800mgs to 10 gallons of gas, that would be 37.5L with 800mg which is 21mg/L. Based on a paper that I found that would only be a Ron gain of something like 2 or so.

I suspect the ppm is based on atomic count, and the Mn is pretty heavy. Unfortunatly you would have to know what else was in the mix to determine the amount of Mg by weight.

Interesting..

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 02-15-2008 at 01:47 AM.
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