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Old 02-17-2008, 02:08 PM   #1
Aquamist
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Default I am new, so go easy...

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to utilise an unused ECU input pin (if there is such a thing existed) to perform MAP switching - used for water injection fail safe purpose.

As present, we just lower boost when a fault is detected.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:12 PM   #2
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I believe you could us a normally open relay in conjuction with the green test connectors. That would revert the ecu to the "B" fueling table and turn off boost control since it would put the ecu into test mode. I don't know if it will work if they are connected while the car is running or if they have to be plugged in followed by a restart to go into test mode. I know there was someone on here not too long ago that was using test mode to get "two" maps. You would have to tune the "B" (high knock) tables to account for the loss of injection. The failsafe feature would need to be smart enough to only activate in a "call for injection/injection failed" and not based only on flow since it would be trying to switch maps below the injection activation threshold. If I understand you correctly your system is already doing that by comparing requested PWM output vs. actual duty cycle/flow?

edit: I should add that it is not directly switching the fuel maps but lowering the IAM, this will remove advance accross the map and if the map is set up to do so it will switch to the low-grade fuel map (B) and can turn off boost control resulting in wastegate spring pressure. FWIW my map switches whenever IAM is below .7 so if I plugged in my green test connectors and lowered IAM to .5 I would switch to the richer fuel map and drop to 14psi. Again I don't know if plugging them in while on will put the ecu into test mode or if you would need to restart. This may all be moot.

Jacob

Last edited by di2co; 02-17-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:21 PM   #3
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You could potentially do this, it is a matter of the amount of work involved. I'm not sure there are unused pins readily available on all ECUs, but unneeded pins can be reprogrammed.

At the point you're going to take this step you might as well just build the WI controller into the ECU. Make a 3D map (load vs. rpm or MAP vs. rpm or whatever), a few compensations (IAT, CT), and use one extra output pin to drive your HSV. Say, the TGV system has four total pins, two inputs, two outputs. The input pins are 0-5V analog, 10bit precise, and the outputs are already setup as PWM motor controllers.
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by di2co View Post
I believe you could us a normally open relay in conjuction with the green test connectors.
That's a very clever idea. That not only puts the ECU into "delivery" mode, but it also flashes the CEL rapidly.
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Old 02-17-2008, 06:00 PM   #5
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Slow down... please. Thank you all.

di2co:
Thanks for chiming in.

Can you tell me which pin does the green test button is connected to, or coming from? It woud be nice if it comes from the ECU directly.

We are at present can comaore flow against IDC and flag a fault if the signal is below a set point. ASlternatively, we can set a "safe operating window".

The failsafe output is always latched on until theris a fault ot the WEI system is switched off. I suppose it I can initiate a "test" mode on the fly, all this can be possible, may be?

I do have most ECU pinout diargram, so tracing the "test button" is not too difficult. What is the "button" named officially.


Freon,
Until I can establish where this "tes button" is connect to, I can then be sure I don't need to find an unused pin. The "test" button may have already connected to the ECU driectly.

Ideally, if there is an unused input pin, either digital or analogue, it can readily be used to switch MAP on the fly.

This has been achieved on the EVO8 and EVO9 EcuFlash platform, great merit for those involved:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=314505

The next step is probably, as hoyu have suggested, run an 3D map from the ECU directly, but this is out of my capability.


Jon,
Please give more input on this.

***********

After achieving the "map switch on the fly" for the EVO, The EcuFlash users is now moving towards a meth/no meth interpolation between the aggressive and non-aggressive MAP and lower boost.

This is also quite lucky that the spare input channel is an ADC input, reads 0-5V. The progressive Map interpolation is based on the flow sensor output. More meth = less fuel and more advanced ignition. This is a "natural" failsafe.

I was hoping we can achieve the same for the Subaru.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:22 PM   #6
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Have just check the "test mode" terminal, it goes to the ECU directly on every ECU form 2002 on, WRX and STI. Activation by grounding - not sure if it is monentary or toggle.

Someone can tell me this?
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:51 PM   #7
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^ I believe it would be momentary at least until the ecu is recycled(key turned off & back on).
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:56 PM   #8
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It needs to be constant/toggle I think.. You have to leave them connected to switch it into test mode and have it stay there IIRC. If it is always latched even when the system is below the injection start threshold you should be fine. Easy solution would be to conect the green test connectors and use a relay to keep the circuit open until the failsafe unlatches (due to fault) allowing the relay to close putting the ecu into test mode (delivery mode).

I'm sure you could do the same thing or something similar to you've done with the Evo but that will take someone who is much smarter regarding "sparky" things than me. I tend to let the "magic smoke" out of things.

edit: testes is probably right, I couldn't really remember if the car stayed in test mode after the test connectors were opened without restarting.

v/r
Jacob
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:53 AM   #9
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i don't think the green-test connectors would work as a fail-safe. A failsafe needs to work immediatly.

I have a toggle switch on my green test connectors and while driving I can toggle the switch in any direction and nothing will happen. It it when I turn the car OFF then ON with the toggle switch in the on position that something happens.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:04 AM   #10
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I will try this tomorrow, mostly because I'm interested in the outcome. What year is your wagon WeldingHank? I'm not doubting you, I just want to find out because if it works that would be great IMHO.

Jacob
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
Can anyone tell me if it is possible to utilise an unused ECU input pin (if there is such a thing existed) to perform MAP switching - used for water injection fail safe purpose.

As present, we just lower boost when a fault is detected.
This would be nice as I've been trying to figure out a way to use have a failsafe with a water injection system on an open souce tuned ecu.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:18 PM   #12
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Since water/alcohol injection has so much to offer for the turbo enigine for a moderate outlay. It would be so nice that some form of OE based failsafe is available, where the engine will start to increase fuelling and retard ignition after a failsafe trigger.

There are piggyback system can perform this task but still a bit of a "hit and miss" affair. I am hoping to find something in between a OE failsafe and full blown "third party" ECU like the Hydra + Hydramist.

There must some clever guys here who is able to diplicate similar results as the EVO guys.

I have been begging and pleading with the commercial reflash guys for years without success. C'mon, it must be possible for the Subaru.
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Old 02-22-2008, 12:25 PM   #13
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bump to attract more input...
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeldingHank View Post
i don't think the green-test connectors would work as a fail-safe. A failsafe needs to work immediatly.

I have a toggle switch on my green test connectors and while driving I can toggle the switch in any direction and nothing will happen. It it when I turn the car OFF then ON with the toggle switch in the on position that something happens.
i have noticed if i connect the green connectors whle the car is at idle the fans do begin to cycle and such. i will check this out tonight and see if boost drops and do some logs. without having to turn off the car and restart .

does anyone know the polarity of the green test connector wires
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ray@revitup View Post
i have noticed if i connect the green connectors whle the car is at idle the fans do begin to cycle and such. i will check this out tonight and see if boost drops and do some logs. without having to turn off the car and restart .

does anyone know the polarity of the green test connector wires
just checked its 5 volts
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Old 02-22-2008, 06:16 PM   #16
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If the test mode works, would the system go into a low boost and change to a more aggressive knock count so timing is retard easier by knock.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:56 PM   #17
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ok rich i have everything wired up testing it tommorow roads are too icy. i also have my system ready to trigger an error. keeping my fingers crossed
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
It would be so nice that some form of OE based failsafe is available, where the engine will start to increase fuelling and retard ignition after a failsafe trigger.
The wrx/sti ecu's go into limp mode under certain circumstances

Check with the RomRaider guys on their forum and ask them how you could "force" the ecu to it go in and out of limp mode and so you can use it as a fail safe
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:33 AM   #19
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This looks so promising, a ready made "failsafe" for the masses. I really look forward to the results, thanks guys.

Over the past year we relied on "commercial" reflash creating a two-tier fuel map. Upon a boost drop (fail sfae kicked into action), the AFS is richen up to protect the motor. Here is an example. The map has been greatly exaggerated.


Less fuel at higher boost is possible due to leaner AFR requirement with Meths injection.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:34 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ray@revitup View Post
ok rich i have everything wired up testing it tommorow roads are too icy. i also have my system ready to trigger an error. keeping my fingers crossed
Go easy - this project can wait.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray@revitup View Post
just checked its 5 volts
I checked all the wiring diagram from 02-07 WRX/STI, all test mode input (B-27) has an intermnal 5V "pull-up" resistor. So all we need is a "toggle" or "momentary" switch to ground. Which switch to use will depend on the outcome of tests you guys about to perform. Pin C-6 is ground.


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Old 02-23-2008, 12:50 PM   #22
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tested the system a few mins ago and the answer is


as soon as an error was triggred , boost dropped to about 10 psi from 22, the afrs dipped into the high 9's

forgot to log timing


this could also be a good way to set the cars on valet mode

Last edited by Ray@revitup; 02-23-2008 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray@revitup View Post
tested the system a few mins ago and the answer is


as soon as an error was triggred , boost dropped to about 10 psi from 22, the afrs dipped into the high 9's

forgot to log timing


this could also be a good way to set the cars on valet mode
Just to be certain - you didn't join the test connectors until AFTER the engine was running, right?

I think the ECU sets IAM to an articially low value to force boost to wastegate pressure, retard spark at hight loads, and switch fuel maps. You should log IAM next time.

BTW, FHI ships all its cars with the test connectors joined from the factory. They aren't disconnected until PDI at the dealership. Maybe it's to keep the port jockeys from having too much fun while loading/unloading ships/railcars.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:29 PM   #24
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jon , car was driving hitting full boost and all i made a toggle switch so that i can emulate an error on my alkie system by momentarily shutting down the pump as soon as i flicked it the car changed.

jon also could you test this on your 02 as well, with just the green connectors and not the jump connector hooked up, you can probably just start the car join the connectors and go for a drive
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:54 PM   #25
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Would it be good enough to use one of the ECU's built-in sensor-induced limp modes?

If the MAF sensor dies, the ECU falls back to a simple speed-density limp mode. So, what if you had the meth-failure-signal trigger a relay that basically unplugs the MAF sensor? How quickly does the car fall back to limp mode?

If the car gets tons of knock, the IAM drops and the car eventually switches to the 'high detonation' fueling table. How quickly would that happen if the meth failure signal was used to generate a bogus input to the knock sensor that the ECU would interpret as massive knock?

Last edited by NSFW; 02-25-2008 at 01:38 AM.
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