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Old 02-19-2008, 07:01 PM   #1
dexterous
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Default GM BCS Question regarding my TiAL 44mm EWG

UPDATE: Its been over a Month since I was tuned and I can verify that under my specific setup, the GM BCS does NOT cut it on my tune. I ended up moving to an AVC-R and called it a day.

The issue was that I was ether overboosting in high gears or underboosting in low gears. A friend with a Perrin BCS did NOT have this issue.

OP:
A friend recently told me that his tuner told him that his GM BCS would not "flow enough" to accurately and reliably control a TiAL 44mm EWG. Can anybody confirm or deny this?

I am currently working on my next build which includes both a TiAL 44mm EWG and a GM BCS. If I need to purchase some other form of boost control, what should I get? Keep in mind that I only want to make a change if its actually necessary.
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Last edited by dexterous; 05-21-2008 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:26 PM   #2
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I know for a fact it'll run a 38mm w/o any issues using both ports OR using just the bottom port of the 38mm. Also is it safe to say that running both ports on the 44mm the GM will do fine. I'd assume that you could get by using just the bottom port as well on the 44mm.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:38 PM   #3
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I'm running the GM BCS with my tial 44mm, works perfect. I've also never heard of anyone saying that before.

I would use the GM and not worry about it...that is totally bogus.
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Old 02-24-2008, 08:22 PM   #4
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Thanks guys. Thats good news because I actually have everything already on the car but I have not driven the car yet (its put away for the winter). I plan on going to get a new tune in early/mid spring and I just wanted to make sure that I got everything taken care of now.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:50 AM   #5
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Your friend puked foul information on you THe GM works fine with the Tial 44 as long as its hooked up correctly.

CLark
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Old 03-01-2008, 09:53 PM   #6
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Thanks Clark!
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:19 AM   #7
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Update in the OP!
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:22 AM   #8
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If I would have seen this earlier I would have recommended getting a 4 port BCS instead of trying to control both ports of the wastegate with one port from the BCS, you can control each one individually.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
If I would have seen this earlier I would have recommended getting a 4 port BCS instead of trying to control both ports of the wastegate with one port from the BCS, you can control each one individually.
A ECBS is what? $250+ that is abit different than a $40 GM BCS.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06 View Post
A ECBS is what? $250+ that is abit different than a $40 GM BCS.
The GM(as well as the Perrin, Grainger, and Pro-Drive) are EBCS's(electronic boost control solenoids), not boost controllers. The 4 port EBCS's I get are about 50-55 bucks. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:31 PM   #11
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^ Sorry. I thought you were reffering to something like a Profec-B or comparable.

are the 4 port your talking about controllable by the stock ecu?

and I'm well aware the GM/prodrive/Perrin/etc are solenoids not controllers.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
UPDATE: Its been over a Month since I was tuned and I can verify that under my specific setup, the GM BCS does NOT cut it on my tune. I ended up moving to an AVC-R and called it a day.

The issue was that I was ether overboosting in high gears or underboosting in low gears. A friend with a Perrin BCS did NOT have this issue.
How did you have it installed? How many other hose-routing attempts did you make? What EM?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
The GM(as well as the Perrin, Grainger, and Pro-Drive) are EBCS's(electronic boost control solenoids), not boost controllers. The 4 port EBCS's I get are about 50-55 bucks. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.
Can you post some more information on this? What are all the ports for? How do they install? I've seen one once (izix, I think) but no info on how it worked.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:27 PM   #13
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Prolly

1 to compressor housing, 1 vented to atmos, 1 to top of ewg, 1 to side of ewg.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06 View Post
Prolly

1 to compressor housing, 1 vented to atmos, 1 to top of ewg, 1 to side of ewg.
Which ports are normally open? What's the point of the "vent to atmosphere" (or intake return) port? What advantages does this give over a regular 3-port?
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:47 PM   #15
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a external has the ability to basically be pulled open or pushed shut by a 4 port controller. The atmopshere vent is just wher ethe controlelr is bleeding off the boost when it isn't feeding that air to the wastegate since these controllers are interuppt style not bleed style like stock.

The advantage is precesion boost control where you can physically force teh wastegate open or closed as you see fit.

On a 3 port the top port of the wastegate would remain open.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluflyer06 View Post
a external has the ability to basically be pulled open or pushed shut by a 4 port controller. The atmopshere vent is just wher ethe controlelr is bleeding off the boost when it isn't feeding that air to the wastegate since these controllers are interuppt style not bleed style like stock.

The advantage is precesion boost control where you can physically force teh wastegate open or closed as you see fit.

On a 3 port the top port of the wastegate would remain open.
Not really (assuming the standards TiAL/Turbonetics style wastegate, not the Synapce (or whatever) 3-port wastegate). The side port is really all that matters, as the pressure applied here pushes against the spring, and when its greater than spring pressure it opens. The top port does the opposite - applies pressure against the spring, requiring greater force to overcome the combined spring + boost pressure, keeping the WG closed longer.

In a 3-port BCS, one port comes from the compressor, and there are several other ways to connect the other ports, as one port is normally open and the other is normally closed, and they swap when the solenoid activates. For example, you can connect the "open" port to the top EWG port, and the "closed" port to the side port. When the BCS activates, the "closed" port (which was closed) will now open, sending boost to the side port of the EWG, opening the wastegate. Or you could run the side port directly to the compressor, so it always sees boost, and use the 3-port to bleed boost from the top port ("open" port goes to the WG, "closed" port vents or returns to the intake).

I guess I'm trying to figure out which ports of the 4-port are normally open and which are normally closed.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:02 PM   #17
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Well, on most EWG setups using a three port you connect the top port of the EWG and the boost source through a T(similar to the way the stock is connected) and the bottom port to the other port on the EBCS. With the 4 port EBCS, everything has its own port on the EBCS allowing more precise control.

Here is the writeup on how to hook everything up.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18201836
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
Well, on most EWG setups using a three port you connect the top port of the EWG and the boost source through a T(similar to the way the stock is connected) and the bottom port to the other port on the EBCS. With the 4 port EBCS, everything has its own port on the EBCS allowing more precise control.

Here is the writeup on how to hook everything up.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18201836
I can't say I've seen anyone running a T with a 3 port in person...wouldn't using a 3 port with a T essentially convert what woudl be a interuppt style boost control into a bleed setup? whats the point.

Mine is :Side Tial into GM, compressor to GM, 3rd port open.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:19 PM   #19
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My buddy is running his with the T. He is using both ports of his EWG, it sounds like you are only using one port of the EWG. He is also using a Greddy Profec-B, but it is the same solenoid as the grainger/perrin.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:22 PM   #20
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I'm not using the T and I'm using both ports on my Prodrive. 3rd port goes to the top port on the EWG, and it seems to be working great.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:23 PM   #21
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All that third port does is vent to air, so you could unhook it from you EWG and it would still work the same.
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:02 PM   #22
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How would that be any different from the 4-port? Boost is being applied to the top port either way. The only thing I can think of is that on the 4-port there is still some pressure being applied to the top port (vs. my style which has that port either fully closed or fully open) which would change the EWG response curve.

I did find that when using that port on the top EWG port the EWG opening/closing smoothed out - it was a little jerky.
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #23
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your putting boost to it, yes, but not physically controlling it like you would if it had its own port on the EWG. The reason it smoothed out is because now it has a little bit more resistance and isnt just the spring slamming the WG shut, it transitions a little bit smoother because of the boost.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:33 PM   #24
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So the 4-port solenoid has the ability to individually control which port opens and closes? How can you control this when the ECU can only provide pulsed voltage that either opens or closes the solenoid?

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand what makes it better.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:55 PM   #25
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No, its not that complex. The 4 port doesn't control each side individually, the design if the EWG wouldnt allow that. It uses the boost(full boost, not bleed off) to force the WG to do what it wants to do, it uses it to force the WG both ways, not really relying on the spring to keep it close. It uses boost to keep it one way or the other.
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