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Old 02-22-2008, 01:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
...tune her up to you hear the noises and back her off a little...
Careful, mod....someone is actually going to believe this one someday.
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:37 PM   #27
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Careful, mod....someone is actually going to believe this one someday.
What? Thats not how you adjust timing?
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
How did the other pistons look?
I couldn't tell you ElementTuning has my car
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Did you hear any light "tapping" or "ticking" at any other time during that first 10 miles?
I did hear light tapping, but was assured that this was normal valvetrain noise.
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Make and model # of the pistons?
I honestly couldn't tell you specifics just that they are CP. I am not an engine builder nor did I attempt to put this motor together.
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Headgasket thickness?
Once again I couldn't tell you because I didn't assembe the motor. I think it was an OEM subaru though.
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Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Was anything decked?
Yet another question for the builder.
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Originally Posted by speed_freak27 View Post
Only ONE cyl? Where are the pics of all 4?
The pictures were sent to me by element. I believe that what you see is obvious enough. I'm honestly not sure if the other pistons were hitting or not. Why does that even matter? This one was obviously hitting.

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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
Please take a picture of your pistons.

Please also take a picture of the cylinder heads (I wanna see the valves).
I can ask Phil to if he has time. I am honestly more worried about getting my car running though. I will ask though.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:07 PM   #29
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One other thing to note, like I said this is the third time that the motor pictured was rebuilt. I was only running hydra the last instance. One other instance was some sort of bearing problem as with my stage 2, and another issue was my cams lobes ground down for whatever reason. This was just the icing on the cake.

Last edited by greysave; 02-22-2008 at 02:09 PM. Reason: wrong information
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:12 PM   #30
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For a guy that's blaming his builder, you sure don't know much about your motor...

The reason why we keep asking for pics of the other pistons is because ALL of them would have been trashed if the wrong pistons were used...
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
tune her up to you hear the noises and back her off a little
Thats the easy way to tune it? I want a challenge which I guess is making sure I don't touch the piston.

-Rene

Last edited by Rene2.5RS; 02-22-2008 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
For a guy that's blaming his builder, you sure don't know much about your motor...

The reason why we keep asking for pics of the other pistons is because ALL of them would have been trashed if the wrong pistons were used...
Thats because I didn't build the motor. I also didn't tune the motor. What would you say would be the cause of one piston hitting the valve then? I believe it was only one piston hitting the valve. If the avcs was advanced too much wouldn't all of the pistons hit? I didn't say it was Ron's fault, I just lost all confidence in him personally.

Last edited by greysave; 02-22-2008 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 02:59 PM   #33
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if all pistons are the same size and the cams are the same size then at least 4 valves (being pushed by one cam) must hit two pistons in a raw or I am wrong?
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Old 02-22-2008, 05:09 PM   #34
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I don't want to get too involved in this so when greg receives all the used parts he can provide pics for you. All intake vales hit the pistons in the areas that lack the traditional reliefs.

Typically with CP pistons and Kelford 272 cams you can run full AVCS advance with no piston valve contact. The pistons however are not the standard CP pistons which have the extra valve reliefs cut into them. His map had 12 degrees of AVCS advance but this setup could not likely even handle 5. Its not the tuners job (this setup was not tuned by anyone) to determine how much AVCS advance the engine can handle before contact is made. The engine builder is the only one who can determine what the limit is.

We clayed this customers new combinaton and it will take full AVCS without contact. It is very close so we'll likely limit advance to 10-12 degrees to play it safe.

Last edited by Element Tuning; 02-22-2008 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:07 PM   #35
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What happens when this one fails? You gonna make more threats and a new thread?
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Old 02-22-2008, 07:47 PM   #36
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So, Phil, let me just get this one part straight: all 4 pistons made contact with the intake valves, correct? IOW, this was not a single jug event? If so, that greatly simplifies the post mortem.

Next question for greysave, not any other combatants: Did ONE guy do the lower end build and the upper end build, and then assemble it? IF not, how did this all break down, and did all the separate players communicate with each other? My gut hunch is this is where the rubber meets the road...

Last edited by flycaster; 02-22-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by greysave View Post
Thats because I didn't build the motor. I also didn't tune the motor. What would you say would be the cause of one piston hitting the valve then? I believe it was only one piston hitting the valve. If the avcs was advanced too much wouldn't all of the pistons hit? I didn't say it was Ron's fault, I just lost all confidence in him personally.
It sure sounded to me like you where blaming Ron, but who knows until you post all the pictures and more detail...

G/L with your new build...
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:54 PM   #38
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Its not the tuners job (this setup was not tuned by anyone) to determine how much AVCS advance the engine can handle before contact is made. The engine builder is the only one who can determine what the limit is..
So this setup wasn't tuned by anyone and the customer just drove it thinking all would be ok?
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:55 PM   #39
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what gets me the most is that when i see pics like that I think there's thousands of $$$$ thrown away.

It makes my stomach turn cause I don't want it to happen to me. There's so many people have have gone through more than 1 "built" motor.

Hell, even fly has. (I forgot about that).
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:56 PM   #40
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Looks great man, keep up the good work!
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:05 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by MJU1983 View Post
What happens when this one fails? You gonna make more threats and a new thread?
Yea of course

Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
So, Phil, let me just get this one part straight: all 4 pistons made contact with the intake valves, correct? IOW, this was not a single jug event? If so, that greatly simplifies the post mortem.

Next question for greysave, not any other combatants: Did ONE guy do the lower end build and the upper end build, and then assemble it? IF not, how did this all break down, and did all the separate players communicate with each other? My gut hunch is this is where the rubber meets the road...
Nope one builder did everything. Seated the valves, assembled the block, he did everything, even did the timing because I wasn't to comfortable doing it. What do you mean where the rubber meets the road?
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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
It sure sounded to me like you where blaming Ron, but who knows until you post all the pictures and more detail...

G/L with your new build...
Even if I was, who cares. I sure know it wasn't my fault, I stuck with Ron for 3 years and I dont know how much money. Maybe he can tell you, but it is at least 10 grand, that all went straight down the tube without me even being able to really drive the car reliably for more then 3 years. 3 f$%*ing years I have had this car sitting and upgrading.

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Originally Posted by PPhilthy View Post
So this setup wasn't tuned by anyone and the customer just drove it thinking all would be ok?
The ECU was pretuned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
what gets me the most is that when i see pics like that I think there's thousands of $$$$ thrown away.

It makes my stomach turn cause I don't want it to happen to me. There's so many people have have gone through more than 1 "built" motor.

Hell, even fly has. (I forgot about that).
Yes everything definitely has to be right, the tune, the motor, and also the driver if it is to survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zach383z View Post
Looks great man, keep up the good work!
Thanks







As a side note, I spent a lot of time and money in this car. I am by no means saying that I haven't made mistakes along the way. But on the other hand, when one of your customers keeps having problems with your motor, you can't possible blame everyone but yourself.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:10 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
There's so many people have have gone through more than 1 "built" motor...Hell, even fly has. (I forgot about that).
One commonality seems to hold true: multiple people were involved, different aspects were done under different roofs, and simple [and usually dumb] mistakes were made. Far fewer problems seem to occur when one house does it all, from package selection, build, assembly, to final tune.
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Old 02-22-2008, 11:56 PM   #43
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Nope one builder did everything. Seated the valves, assembled the block, he did everything, even did the timing because I wasn't to comfortable doing it.
OK, so you dropped the car off once, and picked it up with all the work done by the same guy? Start to finish, one check?

Quote:
The ECU was pretuned.
By the same guy? This is important.

Look, here's my point about the rubber hitting the road: you get more than one shop involved, where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand has done/is doing, and you can end up with a big problem. For example, your builder assumes one thing, and your tuner assumes something else - with kissing piston/valves as the result. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I've sure seen it happen elsewhere.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:52 AM   #44
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Damn sorry to hear about your problems. I sure hope I have better luck with my motor. I sorta know how you feel as I'm on built motor #2 and I also had the full longblock built by one builder. Timing and all since I wanted it done correct and not more than one person working on it.
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:48 PM   #45
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- with kissing piston/valves as the result..
No motor ever, should be built with the possiblity of piston to valve contact, when in proper time. That is just basic engine building 101.

Last edited by Element Tech; 02-23-2008 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 02-23-2008, 04:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Element Tech View Post
No motor ever, should be built with the possiblity of piston to valve contact. That is just basic engine building 101.
Don't subaru and other manufacturers build engines where there is a possibility of piston and valve contact? I believe they call them interference engines, but i could be wrong...
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:35 PM   #47
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Don't subaru and other manufacturers build engines where there is a possibility of piston and valve contact? I believe they call them interference engines, but i could be wrong...
Yes, but only if the engine goes out of time, like in the case of a T belt slipping or breaking, or a timming chain letting go. But? some dont, most Toyota's with a T belt the valves wont hit if the belt breaks. These would be noninterference engines.

I edited the first post, in order to be more clear.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:07 PM   #48
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I honestly couldn't tell you specifics just that they are CP. I am not an engine builder nor did I attempt to put this motor together.

Once again I couldn't tell you because I didn't assembe the motor. I think it was an OEM subaru though.
When we built my motor we found that we couldn't use factory head gaskets with CP Pistons as it did not leave enough clearance. You might want to check that.

Matt
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:43 PM   #49
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In my best Sir Mix-A-Lot imitation- OH MY GAWD!!
When I viewed this post on my I Phone last night, I nearly wet myself laughing.
Kiddies, listen up. This just goes to show you what not following instructions will net you. Greg lacks the ability to follow instructions, that is why you see this mess now.

Let me explain further.

When the engine came back to me with the bearing failure, it was because of wire bits from a metal wire wheel were found lodged into the bearings. Greg even admitted to using a wire wheel to clean his oil pan and possibly not getting it all out before installing it. I've got pics of the parts somwhere. I know Greg has them as well. It also had the intake cams ruined from not following my instructions and performing a cam break-in procedure. His first set of cams were Kelford 272/272 with 10.3mm lift.

When we talked about having to replace the cams, this is when Greg told me he was running a GT35R setup so I explained to him that I can get custom ground cams that will help spool the turbo faster and make more topend power. He said go for it, so I did. AT THAT TIME I EXPLAINED TO GREG THAT HE COULD ONLY RUN 8 DEG MAX ADVANCE IN THE MAP. Stop, go back and read that again. 8 DEG MAX ADVANCE IN THE MAP.
Not only did I tell him that before I ordered the cams, I also told him that before I shipped the engine, when he received the engine, and about 4 or 5 times when I was at his house helping him get the install finalised. So that makes it enough times for the info to sink in, or so you would think.
When I was at his house, I suggested that we reload the map Phil sent just to me sure the right one was in the car, but his laptop was not working properly and it was not letting us run the Hydra software correctly. But he said he had loaded the map earlier and the right one was in the car at the time.
When I was there, we started the engine 3 times. Each time it fired up, it did have normal valvetrain noise you would expect from larger cams. IT DID NOT HAVE VALVE TO PISTON NOISE. But funny thing is, his car would not idle at anything less than 3000 rpms. Something was up with the map or ecu or wiring(was a very bad hack job), so I told him not to start or drive the car until he could get it sorted with Phil. Again, Greg's lack of the ability to follow instructions popped up, as he started the engine several times after I left so he could let his friends listen to it run. How do I know this, he told me so. I wasn't even an hour away and he called me to say he had done this. I told him again not to start the engine again until Phil could check out the map. I even called Phil from Greg's house while I was there to let him know something was up.

So, now that I see Phil has stated that he had 12deg advance in the map, it's no wonder the engine looks like it does. Is it Phil's fault? Or is it Greg's fault? I don't know which. Did Greg forget to tell Phil about the custom cams or did Phil forget to adjust the AVCS map when he sent it to Greg. We will never know as I doubt either will admit anything at this point.

Now on to other things.....

Phil, this might be a good time to do a little research about Subaru engines if you are going to perceive yourself as being someone that knows a lot about them and certainly if you are going to start offering built engines. Your comment about the valve reliefs is almost hysterical.
Yes, the reliefs are there for the valves, but not in the context you are making it out to be. Under normal circumstances, the valves will NEVER touch the pistons. As long as the timing belt is installed correctly, they will not touch, even if they are flat top with no reliefs or dish. I know, I've installed flat top pistons without reliefs before for a high comp engine and it runs fine.
If they need to be there, as you state, why do WRX pistons not have them then? The WRX piston is even a much, much smaller bore, but with the exact same valve centerline as the STI, so the chance of damage would be much greater if what you say is true. I've run up to 2mm larger valves on WRX engines without ever the valves touching the pistons.
Now when cams and AVCS come into play, things change considerably. And that is why I told Greg several times that he can not run more than 8deg MAX AVCS advance. I explain this to all my customers who run anything larger than 274 with Kelford cams. Cosworth cams I know nothing about as I've actually only seen 2 sets come through the shop and I did not measure either set. I just know Cosworth states their cams are compatible with Subaru's AVCS values.

Greg, why do you lie so much? Are you purposely trying to make me look bad? I understand you are upset at me, but man you don't have to start making up stuff to make your point. Be a man, admit your mistakes.
You stated that this last time I sent the engine back to you was the first time it had a Hydra on it. I thought that Doug at Topspeed had tuned it before that with the Hydra on it, when you failed to perform the cam breakin procedure. I don't know about when you had just the stage 2, but I'm almost certain it had the Hydra after you stepped up to the stage 3 block.
Also, this might be a good time for you to explain to all these nice people the kind of elements your engine was exposed to before it was even started after the last rebuild. When I arrived, it had the hood off and only a small piece of plastic of the engine bay and it had just rained. The engine was soaked with water and you didn't even have any of the intercooler piping or vacuum lines installed yet so it the internals were fully exposed to the elements, as well as the open throttle body. I think the back seat was sitting out in the rain as well, and it was soaked too. Your tool box was full of water, everything was laying on the ground around the car, and I even remember seeing new Cometic Subaru head gaskets laying in about 3" of water in one of your tool drawers. You had engine parts, for your STI, sitting in boxes that were soaked and everything was just filthy. I've got pics I took with my phone, I just need to find them.

So enough of this crap, take your medicine, and either start following instructions with your new engine and enjoy your car or keep on doing what you've been doing the whole time and keep blowing the thing up.
Personally, I'm glad to be finished with you, much less headaches and I'm glad Phil will be the one having to deal with your future situations.
Sure, I'm upset that a former customer has had to go through this type of ordeal, but when that customer has nobody to blame but himself and is intent on pushing the blame elsewhere, what can I say?

Ron
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:45 PM   #50
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When we built my motor we found that we couldn't use factory head gaskets with CP Pistons as it did not leave enough clearance. You might want to check that.

Matt
Uh, I don't think so. The CP pistons are a direct replacement for the stockers, so you can certainly use the stock head gaskets.
That is unless you had custom CP pistons that had a dome to them, or you cut the head mating surface of your block so low the pistons stuck out of the deck.

Ron
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