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Old 02-23-2008, 09:11 PM   #51
flycaster
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Thanks, Ron - I think that clears this all up. The clearance was good for 8* AVCS advance, the map dialed in 12*, and there were other unresolved issues as well. Voila, carnage.
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:08 AM   #52
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Axis stage 3 10 miles aftermath.
[/quote]


wow , haven't seen one like that in a while
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:25 AM   #53
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*shakes head*

Quote:
Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
There's so many people have have gone through more than 1 "built" motor.
i am just gonna buy like 4 v7 shortblocks to stock in my garage instead of buying a built motor when i blow mine up.

probably last me 10+ years
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:41 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
In my best Sir Mix-A-Lot imitation- OH MY GAWD!!
When I viewed this post on my I Phone last night, I nearly wet myself laughing.
Kiddies, listen up. This just goes to show you what not following instructions will net you. Greg lacks the ability to follow instructions, that is why you see this mess now.

Let me explain further.

When the engine came back to me with the bearing failure, it was because of wire bits from a metal wire wheel were found lodged into the bearings.

Now on to other things.....

Phil, this might be a good time to do a little research about Subaru engines if you are going to perceive yourself as being someone that knows a lot about them and certainly if you are going to start offering built engines. Your comment about the valve reliefs is almost hysterical.
Yes, the reliefs are there for the valves, but not in the context you are making it out to be. Under normal circumstances, the valves will NEVER touch the pistons. As long as the timing belt is installed correctly, they will not touch, even if they are flat top with no reliefs or dish. I know, I've installed flat top pistons without reliefs before for a high comp engine and it runs fine.
If they need to be there, as you state, why do WRX pistons not have them then? The WRX piston is even a much, much smaller bore, but with the exact same valve centerline as the STI, so the chance of damage would be much greater if what you say is true. I've run up to 2mm larger valves on WRX engines without ever the valves touching the pistons.
Now when cams and AVCS come into play, things change considerably. And that is why I told Greg several times that he can not run more than 8deg MAX AVCS advance. I explain this to all my customers who run anything larger than 274 with Kelford cams. Cosworth cams I know nothing about as I've actually only seen 2 sets come through the shop and I did not measure either set. I just know Cosworth states their cams are compatible with Subaru's AVCS values.

Greg, why do you lie so much? Are you purposely trying to make me look bad? I understand you are upset at me, but man you don't have to start making up stuff to make your point. Be a man, admit your mistakes.
You stated that this last time I sent the engine back to you was the first time it had a Hydra on it. I thought that Doug at Topspeed had tuned it before that with the Hydra on it, when you failed to perform the cam breakin procedure. I don't know about when you had just the stage 2, but I'm almost certain it had the Hydra after you stepped up to the stage 3 block.

Ron
I really, really didn’t want to get involved in this because I don’t really care who did what and who is to blame. My job is just to make our customers happy by doing our job correctly and that’s what we are doing for Greg.

Ron, you need to learn to defend yourself without resorting to personal attacks and unprofessional comments as it’s not doing you or RAW Performance any favors. We have been racing our engines for over 3 years and have zero failures from any customers so I most certainly don’t need a lesson from you when it’s clear you are having issues with your engines. Our experience racing our engines and fine tuning the process has proven successful. I’m sure Raw Performance sells way more engines than Element Tuning but we have no aspirations of being a mail order engine company. We build motors, install them, and tune them to avoid the pushing blame on anyone but ourselves if something was to go wrong. I have been well aware for years the potential for this type of failure and have made adjustments to our custom pistons to ensure this cannot happen with “normal” AVCS use. We have also clayed a number of popular off the shelf combinations to know if there is potential for contact.

I know you like to call your customer Greg a liar but he never had a Hydra is his car prior to this motor because he didn’t own one when it was tuned at Top Speed. This isn’t about his other motor but I don’t understand how wire bits from the wire wheel could make it past the oil filter to even make it to the bearings. Your list of motor failures related to bearing issues is long and you are running out of excuses and people to blame.

Moving on, neither Greg nor you mentioned a maximum of 8 degrees of AVCS advance. Whoever failed to communicate this resulted in costly rebuild. I’m sure that valve noise you heard was the valves hitting the pistons at anything above 2k rpm. You built and installed this engine and if you knew it was so close and you didn’t know the map was correct, why didn’t you just unplug the AVCS solenoids to be safe?

The off the shelf CP pistons for the STi have enough valve relief cut into them and if used, his engine would have never made contact even at oem AVCS advance. Cosworth retards their cams from advertised specs to prevent this from happening when pistons with at least OEM valve clearance are used. With your RAW Performance custom CP pistons, there was not enough valve relief to clear the pistons with “NORMAL” AVCS advance. What you are suggesting as “normal” is actually abnormal since AVCS comes standard on the STI. This is not a WRX, it’s a STi. The WRX uses 1mm smaller valves and does not have AVCS and therefore does not need the extra valve relief pistons the STi requires. I’m assuming you knew this. Greg’s heads have 2mm larger valves than the WRX so why use a WRX style piston when you know there will be potential valve contact issues. I’ve pulled other RAW Performance engines apart and I know you also use STi style CP pistons so why use these WRX style pistons? I will take a picture with one of the damaged pistons next to a CP off the shelf tomorrow so you understand what I meant by the reliefs.

Greg is not an engine builder or mechanic by trade. He is an enthusiast like most here on Nasioc. He expects and relies on the advice and guidance by the experts as he is not in a position to make any assumptions on his own. As a professional in this industry you have to recognize when someone is way over their head and be point blank with them. We have been point blank with Greg and his car is definitely getting a makeover here to ensure it’s done correctly and without further issues. We are going to stand by the engine work we have done on Greg’s car because we are supremely confident it has all been done correctly. It has been mentioned before but the only way you can be confident there are no unanswered questions is to have your motor built, installed, and tuned by one company. I am confident Greg will live happily ever after when we are done with his car.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:25 PM   #55
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I'm not a mail order shortblock company, far from it.

I'm not running out of excuses to blame for his failures at all, I don't need any excuses. The proof is in the parts and what was inside after the failure.. I didn't install the oil pan when I sent it back the first time, Greg did so that lays the problem on him for having wire wheel material in the bearings. How did it get past the filter, who knows but I certainly didn't put it in there. I don't use wire wheels for any part of the engine build/rebuild process nor does my machinist.
But as you say, that has nothing to do with this failure. This failure was because Greg can not follow instructions. If he did not communicate with you that the cams could only withstand 8deg advance, that is the problem. He is the one who told me that the correct map was in the car, and he is the one who said it was there for sure and it was ok to start it up.
The valvetrain noise I heard was normal for the cams installed.
And just so you know, I DID unplug the AVCS selenoids before I started the car. Greg must have plugged them back in after I left. He probably saw the plugs hanging loose and plugged them back in. And yes, I did tell him to leave them alone.

As far as the valve reliefs not being there, that is because Greg wanted me to raise the comp ratio so the GT35R turbo would be more responsive, so that is what I did. The custom pistons have a smaller dish for that purpose. The engine was setup to have 8.5:1compression using his heads that have been cut numerous times. That is also the reason I told him the cams can not have more than 8 deg advance, as the valves were much closer to the deck from having the heads cut so much.

I have at least 150 engines running those exact same pistons and Greg's is the only one that has made contact with the valves. That used to be the only style piston I offered for the STI.

And who cares what Cosworth specs their cams at, these were not Cosworth cams. I know what I can and can not do with my cams and specs and my custom pistons. Cosworth specs their cams a certain way, as do I.

I am going to leave this alone from now on. Yes, I did personally attack Greg, but that's because he personally attacked me for something he knows is/was not my fault.
The comments I directed to you, well you can take those how you want.

Ron
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #56
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Fair enough and the only reason I mentioned Cosworth is because that's what Greg thought he had.
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:08 PM   #57
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From reading through this whole thread it's obvious that Greg bit off more than he had the skill and knowledge to execute correctly, left out several key parts to the story and also failed to listen to his engine builder = FAIL...

It's unfortunate that your learning curve has been very expensive it also seems to me that Element finds a way to bash Ron every chance they get
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:34 PM   #58
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the utter carelessness resulting in a waste of thousands upon thousands of dollars just blows me away. if i was spending that kind of money on a motor, i would not only be listening and writing down instructions, i would be asking question upon question to the builder and tuner. i agree that having everything done in one place is the best way to go, but whatever happened to picking up a phone... i dont see why the op didnt just get the tuner to contact the builder to follow through on specifications and any special instructions.

chalk up another epic fail in the built motor forum...
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:49 PM   #59
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Let this be a lesson: when an unqualified owner tries to play project manager, the job almost invariably ends up being a total FUBAR. I see it every day in real estate development (my day job), so why should it be any different with cars?

That's a helluva "tuition check" you wrote there, amigo. It sucks, and I'm sorry it happened.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:09 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The off the shelf CP pistons for the STi have enough valve relief cut into them and if used, his engine would have never made contact even at oem AVCS advance. Cosworth retards their cams from advertised specs to prevent this from happening when pistons with at least OEM valve clearance are used. With your RAW Performance custom CP pistons, there was not enough valve relief to clear the pistons with “NORMAL” AVCS advance. What you are suggesting as “normal” is actually abnormal since AVCS comes standard on the STI. This is not a WRX, it’s a STi. The WRX uses 1mm smaller valves and does not have AVCS and therefore does not need the extra valve relief pistons the STi requires. I’m assuming you knew this. Greg’s heads have 2mm larger valves than the WRX so why use a WRX style piston when you know there will be potential valve contact issues. I’ve pulled other RAW Performance engines apart and I know you also use STi style CP pistons so why use these WRX style pistons? I will take a picture with one of the damaged pistons next to a CP off the shelf tomorrow so you understand what I meant by the reliefs.
Wow.

Here is my engine:



I run AVCS big port heads.

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:29 PM   #61
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I dont want to be a side here but there's no point in pushing an engine to the brink of destruction just to satisfy someone's ambitious expectations even though there's money to be made. Experience will be best shield of a tuner for this type of failures. If you dont know the specs of the engine(it is obvious it is not a typical engine), you could walk away from trouble leave the AVCS off and inform the customer. Not all the engines are the same. If you re really willingful on tuning AVCS you should call the engine builder for more information(not FHI)


For me there is no point of blaming each other since you are trading here. It seems Phil is so aggressive here to call Rawperformance as an mailorder engine specialist. Forget the AVCS stuff or what the failure was about - why did you tried to tune a mailorder company's engine if you are so experienced like that?

Phil, you really, really shouldn't get involved in this topic. It was obvious that both the tuner and engine builder has no fault in here. Greg should follow the instructions. It is simply an expensive communication problem.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:30 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJU1983 View Post
Wow.

Here is my engine:



I run AVCS big port heads.

LMAO, I'm sitting here laughing at the computer and now I'm trying to explain what I'm laughing at to a bunch of non car people and they are all looking at me like I'm stupid.

Matt
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:55 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by MJU1983 View Post
Wow.

Here is my engine:



I run AVCS big port heads.

Same here: Built EJ207 w/ 9:1CR sitting in Ron's shop will be used with JDM v8 heads w/ +1mm valves & 272/272 Kelford cams:


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Old 02-26-2008, 09:34 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
In my best Sir Mix-A-Lot imitation- OH MY GAWD!!
When I viewed this post on my I Phone last night, I nearly wet myself laughing.
Kiddies, listen up. This just goes to show you what not following instructions will net you. Greg lacks the ability to follow instructions, that is why you see this mess now.
***** you theif
Let me explain further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
When the engine came back to me with the bearing failure, it was because of wire bits from a metal wire wheel were found lodged into the bearings.
You gave me 2 desciptions the problem...too much gas and the wire brush which is it. you keep flipping back and forth. You just said the opposite in the last thread we had...You said it was too much gas now its the wire brush again. Your such a damn liar.

[
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
Greg even admitted to using a wire wheel to clean his oil pan and possibly not getting it all out before installing it. I've got pics of the parts somwhere. I know Greg has them as well. It also had the intake cams ruined from not following my instructions and performing a cam break-in procedure. His first set of cams were Kelford 272/272 with 10.3mm lift.
lies lies and more lies. I told you i "might" have used the wire brush then I called you back and told you that I used the wire brush on my dsm not my sti, and that I used a liquid cleaner. When the hell did you tell me anything about breaking the cams in. You admitted yourself to maybe forgetting to tell me. I sure didn't know to do it. I sure didn't have to do that with my dsm, and the subaru dealer who first got it started didn't do it either. I guess we are all at fault for you not telling me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
When we talked about having to replace the cams, this is when Greg told me he was running a GT35R setup so I explained to him that I can get custom ground cams that will help spool the turbo faster and make more topend power. He said go for it, so I did. AT THAT TIME I EXPLAINED TO GREG THAT HE COULD ONLY RUN 8 DEG MAX ADVANCE IN THE MAP. Stop, go back and read that again. 8 DEG MAX ADVANCE IN THE MAP.
Not only did I tell him that before I ordered the cams, I also told him that before I shipped the engine, when he received the engine, and about 4 or 5 times when I was at his house helping him get the install finalised. So that makes it enough times for the info to sink in, or so you would think.
When I was at his house, I suggested that we reload the map Phil sent just to me sure the right one was in the car, but his laptop was not working properly and it was not letting us run the Hydra software correctly. But he said he had loaded the map earlier and the right one was in the car at the time.
First off you never told me anything about 8 degrees max. I honestly can't believe you are this dishonest. If you did tell me something about the 8 degrees max I have no reason to withhold this information from phil, as it effects the health of my motor, honestly I had all the reason to tell Phil. I guess you told me that just like you told me to break my cams in after. This is the first time I am EVER hearing you say anything about 8 degrees advance. Just like it was the first time I ever heard you say anything about breaking in the cams after the cams were already ruined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
When I was there, we started the engine 3 times. Each time it fired up, it did have normal valvetrain noise you would expect from larger cams. IT DID NOT HAVE VALVE TO PISTON NOISE. But funny thing is, his car would not idle at anything less than 3000 rpms. Something was up with the map or ecu or wiring(was a very bad hack job), so I told him not to start or drive the car until he could get it sorted with Phil. Again, Greg's lack of the ability to follow instructions popped up, as he started the engine several times after I left so he could let his friends listen to it run. How do I know this, he told me so. I wasn't even an hour away and he called me to say he had done this. I told him again not to start the engine again until Phil could check out the map. I even called Phil from Greg's house while I was there to let him know something was up
This has nothing to do why my engine died. Stop tring to distract. You told me to keep starting it at a minimum because you thought the car was getting too much fuel which once again has nothing to do with why it died. I also had to start it to trouble shoot it which finally turned out to be the wiring harness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
So, now that I see Phil has stated that he had 12deg advance in the map, it's no wonder the engine looks like it does. Is it Phil's fault? Or is it Greg's fault? I don't know which. Did Greg forget to tell Phil about the custom cams or did Phil forget to adjust the AVCS map when he sent it to Greg. We will never know as I doubt either will admit anything at this point.
First off I told you I wanted AVCS no matter what. Second, you never told me isht about 8 degrees advance. I sure did tell phil I had cams you sure didn't tell me anything about 8 degrees advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
Greg, why do you lie so much? Are you purposely trying to make me look bad? I understand you are upset at me, but man you don't have to start making up stuff to make your point. Be a man, admit your mistakes.
You stated that this last time I sent the engine back to you was the first time it had a Hydra on it. I thought that Doug at Topspeed had tuned it before that with the Hydra on it, when you failed to perform the cam breakin procedure. I don't know about when you had just the stage 2, but I'm almost certain it had the Hydra after you stepped up to the stage 3 block.
Also, this might be a good time for you to explain to all these nice people the kind of elements your engine was exposed to before it was even started after the last rebuild. When I arrived, it had the hood off and only a small piece of plastic of the engine bay and it had just rained. The engine was soaked with water and you didn't even have any of the intercooler piping or vacuum lines installed yet so it the internals were fully exposed to the elements, as well as the open throttle body. I think the back seat was sitting out in the rain as well, and it was soaked too. Your tool box was full of water, everything was laying on the ground around the car, and I even remember seeing new Cometic Subaru head gaskets laying in about 3" of water in one of your tool drawers. You had engine parts, for your STI, sitting in boxes that were soaked and everything was just filthy. I've got pics I took with my phone, I just need to find them.
First the head gaskets are irrelevant because you did all of that at your shop. They were my old broke head gaskets. That were on my stage 2 motor. So them being wet has nothing to do with it because when you came to my hose the engine was in the car already. I never claimed to be well organized because I didn't have the funs for a shop. I left my seats outside and got a surprise rain when I went to go meat you. I can't believe you are calling anyone a liar with all of the untruths you just told.

No I didn't have a hydra when Doug had it just ask him. He was telling me to get rid of my street tuner too, so you once again make up stuff when yo don't know or don't do your responsibility as a builder. My tool box is in the same place it had been for at least a year, it is amazing that everything was soaked as you say because the car was under a car port. Perfect no, adequate though yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
So enough of this crap, take your medicine, and either start following instructions with your new engine and enjoy your car or keep on doing what you've been doing the whole time and keep blowing the thing up.
Personally, I'm glad to be finished with you, much less headaches and I'm glad Phil will be the one having to deal with your future situations.
Sure, I'm upset that a former customer has had to go through this type of ordeal, but when that customer has nobody to blame but himself and is intent on pushing the blame elsewhere, what can I say?
Honestly Ron you take 0 accountability for your builds. It is funny how you keep blaming me, but how come you had to rebuild it so many times? Why would I ever do buisness with anyone who calls the customer a liar. I had the utmost respect for you, I introduced you to my wife, introduced you to my kids, gave you the utmost respect. Anytime there was a problem though, you didn't come through. Everything is my problem, and Ron as the engine builder had nothing to do with this bad build. You have nothing to do with any of the rod bearing failures I had right. Anwser this for me then, how come you told me you changed my bearings the 3rd or 4th time from clevite to acl, but still charged me for the build after the rod bearings went. Why would you say that clevite changed the material and you had been having problems with other peoples bearings and builds because of this but still make me pay. As a buisness owner your behavior is unacceptable. You have told me of several failures and you always attribute them to customers, such as your customer in Ukraine and others. How about you step up and start being accountable for your motors. This could have all been resolved if you fixed my motor right the first time. It also would have been ok if you didn't tell me that you changed bearings because the old ones are junk and charge me as if the junk bearings were my fault. I didn't choose them. You keep calling me a liar but almost everything you have stated is a lie.
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:21 PM   #65
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:39 PM   #66
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So it seems that this is an issue over whether or not he/she said to limit AVCS advance. i know he was damn sure to tell me the pertinent details on my kelford AVCS build...
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:53 PM   #67
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Forget the AVCS stuff or what the failure was about - why did you tried to tune a mailorder company's engine if you are so experienced like that?
This engine was never tuned or attempted to be tuned by anyone as it never made it that far.
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:24 PM   #68
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So this damage occured with 0 deg advance? or ?
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:31 PM   #69
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So this damage occured with 0 deg advance? or ?
15degrees of AVCS advance.
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:33 PM   #70
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So this damage occured with 0 deg advance? or ?
Sounds like 12 degrees...Ron told customer (which I believe) max 8. And Phil and valve reliefs, well...

Mind you the OP has made death threats on another vendor before...psycho much???
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:48 PM   #71
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I'll ask this question to other engine builders/tuners that have seen this thread and these piston pics.

Do these pistons look like they have only 10 miles on them? That is what Greg is claiming the engine did before the blowup.
Looks like quite a bit more to me, wouldn't you say? And what's with all the pitting and other marks around the exhaust side of them? These pistons were absolutely spotless when I put them back in and they had new rings installed on new bore honing. Rings look well used from the top.

The valve contact looks to be about right for too much cam advance. Not too bad, but enough to make marks.

I'm not going to say anything. Now the pics are up, the knowledgable people can make a decision for themselves.

Ron
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:50 PM   #72
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This engine was never tuned or attempted to be tuned by anyone as it never made it that far.
Never tuned or attempted to be tuned? Did you or did you not write a map for this engine/car combo? If you did, that is an attemp at tuning.

Am I right or wrong about this?

Ron
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:08 PM   #73
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Vehicle:
04 GT3076 2.1
Stroker = Broken 3rd

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I dealth with ron once. I called him up to get some valve buckets for my build. he asked me three times if i was sure those are the ones i need. he even asked him how I calculated it. I find it impossible for ron leave out a detail that would possibly kill an engine.


but anyway.
: popcorn :
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:21 PM   #74
greysave
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Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ
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Originally Posted by boogerwrx View Post
Never tuned or attempted to be tuned? Did you or did you not write a map for this engine/car combo? If you did, that is an attemp at tuning.

Am I right or wrong about this?

Ron
Well how many miles are on the pistons then? When exactly did you tell me about the 8 degrees advance? Why didn't you tell phil since you were on the phone with him? Stop changing the subject. Yes the pistons have 10 miles on them like I said, if that though. I don't even think i drove the car 10 miles. What does that have to do with timing advance? Oh yea im at work I'll address your other half truths later.
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:23 PM   #75
texas05sti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NITROS View Post
I dealth with ron once. I called him up to get some valve buckets for my build. he asked me three times if i was sure those are the ones i need. he even asked him how I calculated it. I find it impossible for ron leave out a detail that would possibly kill an engine.


but anyway.
: popcorn :

+1 for Ron. I've gotten 2 emails from him today alone about my heads. He's probably told me 8-10 times over the last month that I can't run any AVCS with the cams that I'm getting. None of the behaviors that are being described sound like the same person I've been dealing with.

Peter
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