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Old 02-21-2008, 12:06 AM   #1
Forester_007
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Unhappy Slow 1/4 miles times.. HELP!!!!!!!!

Ok here is the thing, I went to the track tonight an was disappointed with the time I did after the mods I did. You don't know how pissed I am, I thought I was in the 15's for sure maybe. Here is the history of my car and mods. I was discussing this with my friend an we though it had to do something the Turbo Modded Torque Converter but not sure, the response of the Transmission is different, got to give it more gas to move around.

HELP ME OUT GIVE ME YOUR DIAGNOSIS, WHATS WRONG WITH MY CAR.

2003 Forester XS AT 34k Miles

17.6 Sec Mods:

I87 Octane Fuel
STOCK

16.5 sec Mods:

87 Octane Fuel
Paranoid Grounding Kit
Magnacore Plug Wires
Perrin Pulley
CAI
Borla Header
HFC
2.25" Midpipe
Sti axelback

16.28 Sec Mods:

93 Octane Fuel
16.5 Sec Mods
Denso Iridium Spark Plugs
Stock Plug Wires
Mild Delta Cams
Ported Throttle Body
PnP Intake Manifold
Throttle Body Spacer
Intake Manifold Plenum Spacers
Forester XT IPT Modded Torque Converter 3200 Stall
PP6 (Turned Off)
Free Flow Custom Axelback
New Aem Intake Filter
Amsoil Synthetic Tranny and Gear Oil
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:10 AM   #2
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get it tuned?....i mean you have cams, but yet running on stock engine management?
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:17 AM   #3
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Yeah stock EM. Thanks for the respones, I appreciate any help I can get. But still un-tuned it should be noticeable gain in the 1/4. We talking about 0.22 secs GAIN in 1/4 for all the mods, something has to be wrong.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:37 AM   #4
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OK, the only things you changed between your last two revisions that are going to make you any faster are the cams and POSSIBLY the PnP manifold. There's a couple of possible issues:
1) The mild cams are for midrange grunt. If you've got the throttle pegged, is the AT keeping the engine above the range where the cams are doing any good?
2) PnP only works if done well/right.
3) If the PnP is getting you more air and if the cams are getting you more air up top where you'd be with it floored, then you're almost certainly over-running the stock timing and fueling maps (which top out at 1.3g/rev in all the H4 ROMs I've seen so far). Even if it's getting more air, it may not be doing much with it.
4) The spacers move the powerband lower in the rev range. Couple this with the cams and you might be WAY over-revving the car.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:53 AM   #5
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What you mean by way over-revving the car? Also over-runnin the stock timimg and Fueling maps? This is what I understood, I am getting lots of air into my engine , but not taking full advantage of it because of timing and fuel?
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:02 AM   #6
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The engine will only make good torque within a certain range of RPM. The Delta Mild cams AND the spacers you're running both increase low-to-midrange torque at the expense of top-end torque. This moves the powerband lower in the rev range. If you're flooring the car, the tranny controller should be shifting the tranny at redline. The car wasn't strong at redline to begin with. Moving the power band lower may result in the computer running the engine above the best part of the powerband.

Once you hit the maximum value in the table, the ECU will continue to use whatever the value was no matter how far above the maximum you go. So if at 1.3g/rev you're running 20* of timing, it'll still run that 20* even if you make it to 2g/rev.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:13 AM   #7
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So what can I do to make this car runs good? Work with the timing and cam timing? What else be good? Take out the spacers? Put stock Manifold back?
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:25 AM   #8
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Its called a turbo.

Even a 4 psi turbo is going to kick the ass out of what you have now.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Its called a turbo.

Even a 4 psi turbo is going to kick the ass out of what you have now.
Berk.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forester_007 View Post
So what can I do to make this car runs good? Work with the timing and cam timing? What else be good? Take out the spacers? Put stock Manifold back?
Well, first you need to figure out FOR SURE what the problem is. Step one is to get a Tactrix cable and start logging. You'll be able to tell where you're torque curve is at by logging Engine Load. Then log a 1/4mi run. Are you spending most of the run at RPM above the beefiest part of the Engine Load graph? If you are, you need to figure out either how to shift the powerband back up or get the car to shift sooner. If you're still in the meat of the powerband, then you need to look elsewhere.

There's just SO many possibilities here. You could be above the powerband. You could be tuned improperly for the loads you're seeing. You could be running out of fuel due to the higher loads you're seeing. You could be getting timing retard due to the extra overlap your cams are running. There's literally dozens of things it could be and you're not going to sort them out without data logging.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:40 AM   #11
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Whats wrong?

Foresters are heavier and 4EAT's wont do 15's in N/A form without more serious mods...
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Whats wrong?

Foresters are heavier and 4EAT's wont do 15's in N/A form without more serious mods...
I was going to say something along these lines.

It seems it's running pretty good, without being tuned, considering the weight of, and tranny in this car.

You really need to look at having it tuned for optimal performance though.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:05 AM   #13
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try some synthetic tranny fluid? and yes, tuning helps a lot.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrgh View Post
try some synthetic tranny fluid? and yes, tuning helps a lot.
Reading 1 yarrgh 0. See post #1
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Whats wrong?

Foresters are heavier and 4EAT's wont do 15's in N/A form without more serious mods...
I am certain I can hit 15's with the mods I got, after I fix this problem.

Also I was doin some top speed run, and I am topping out about 102 mph then it stops producing stays in 4000rpms. Is this a problem with the car's timing?
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrgh View Post
try some synthetic tranny fluid? and yes, tuning helps a lot.
Yeah I got some good synthetic oil ,AMSOIL, shifts way better. I am waiting to get my EL headers to arrive so I can tune it, and to check everything out like timing and cams adjustment, valve lash etc....
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:06 PM   #17
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Do you have your trap speeds for all three runs? What was your 60ft for the last 2 runs? I would think that the car should leave the line pretty good with the 3200rpm stall. Are you brake torquing the launch?

This is a motor with the same cams you have. Top end looks to fall off alittle faster on top.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:12 PM   #18
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When I did 16.5 I had a trap speed of 80mph, new mods 16.28 traps speed of 83mph. Lets see if I can get all the info of the runs an post them up. Yes I brake torque launch, it a XT Modded TC for 3200rpm an it goes up to 3400rpm some times.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:13 PM   #19
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Ouch on stock time, but Subaru autos haven't exactly been known to be quick in drag.

Perrin Pulley (slight gains)
CAI (eh, better or worse depending)
Borla Header (ok)
HFC (good)
2.25" Midpipe (doesn't matter)
Sti axelback (ok)

Good start. I bet it feels like it breaths a little easier up top and is a little peppier overall.


93 Octane Fuel (no gain without tune)
Denso Iridium Spark Plugs (no gain)
Stock Plug Wires (no gain)
Mild Delta Cams (mild gain, needs tune)
Ported Throttle Body (smooth flow is good but probably not major gains)
PnP Intake Manifold (smooth flow nice, care with getting diameters too big, can loose midrange/low end power, gains?)
Throttle Body Spacer (mixed bag here, some think 1-2hp, some none)
Intake Manifold Plenum Spacers (phenolic?, longer running length = better low end/midrange performance, if thermally isolated, can help temps...if this wasn't winter...)
Forester XT IPT Modded Torque Converter 3200 Stall (how'd it do with 60 foot times?)
PP6 (Turned Off) (kay)
Free Flow Custom Axelback (not major gains to be had over what you had)
New Aem Intake Filter (expecting much gains?)
Amsoil Synthetic Tranny and Gear Oil (good for winter and start up, no difference when warm)


So, like everyone else said, get it tuned. This is your biggest weakness right now. Also, drop weight where you can.

The main thing we do with our NA engines is improve efficiency. We can't make more power without moving more air/fuel through the system. This means we need more torque or more rpm. Torque comes from compression from different heads, lever arm of the crank(think stroker kit), and rpm come from reving the snot out of the engine(has to be built to do so). Everything else we do is to simply improve efficiency. Porting and polishing, custom headers, exhaust, cams, etc. are all working towards a gain in efficiency throughout the power band. This decreases losses but doesn't exactly make a lot of power. It's like lightweight pulleys, flywheels(not you), wheels/tires, etc. You're freeing up what should be there but is doing excess work and getting lost. If the 165hp engine was already 85% efficient, theoretically, you can only reach 100%, regardless of what you do, so you're bound to about 194HP if you could get to 100% efficiency. All other gains must come from physical modification of the motor to physically create more torque or move more air/fuel through the engine for a given time(rpm). A quick calculation is 1hp = 1.45cfm of air/fuel mixture. A 2.5L engine at 6500rpm runs 300cfm, so that's 205HP max theoretical. I assume this number is derived from the chemical reaction(100% reaction, all energy released, engine at 100% efficiency). However, we can see we need more displacement or more rpm to get more power for a gasoline mixture.

The tune will help a lot in boosting efficiency.

If you don't want to do major engine work, consider a swap to E85 if you have some in your area. You need to change injectors/fuel pump cause a lot more fuel is used. However, per volume of fuel/air in the combustion chamber, you are making more power than with regular gas. It's a nice route since it doesn't need major work on the engine. However, you do need it tuned. Gains can be somewhat significant. I have yet to work through any numbers, just sparse readings.

Hmm, I'll just find info...
Available energy
E85 = 83,263BTU
Gas = 114,000BTU
Gas seems to win, right? Wrong. The air/fuel ratio is different

Air/Fuel ratios
E85 = 9.8:1
Gas = 14.7:1
You end up with 45% more fuel dumped into the engine using E85 at ideal air/fuel ratios.

100% x 114,000BTU = 114,000BTU
145% x 83.263BTU = 121,000BTU
That's a 6% increase. Then there are some minor timing gains due to E85 having an equivalent octane of around 105. You're looking at around a 20HP gain. That's as good as any other mod we can do on our NA engines.

I just bring up E85 as an option, and since you'll already be tuning for the cams and intake/exhaust anyways. E85 could technically be done at the same time. It's also not a labor or cost intensive job like yanking out the engine and swapping heads, pistons, etc.
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:51 PM   #20
Forester_007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Ouch on stock time, but Subaru autos haven't exactly been known to be quick in drag.

Perrin Pulley (slight gains)
CAI (eh, better or worse depending)
Borla Header (ok)
HFC (good)
2.25" Midpipe (doesn't matter)
Sti axelback (ok)

Good start. I bet it feels like it breaths a little easier up top and is a little peppier overall.


93 Octane Fuel (no gain without tune)
Denso Iridium Spark Plugs (no gain)
Stock Plug Wires (no gain)
Mild Delta Cams (mild gain, needs tune)
Ported Throttle Body (smooth flow is good but probably not major gains)
PnP Intake Manifold (smooth flow nice, care with getting diameters too big, can loose midrange/low end power, gains?)
Throttle Body Spacer (mixed bag here, some think 1-2hp, some none)
Intake Manifold Plenum Spacers (phenolic?, longer running length = better low end/midrange performance, if thermally isolated, can help temps...if this wasn't winter...)
Forester XT IPT Modded Torque Converter 3200 Stall (how'd it do with 60 foot times?)
PP6 (Turned Off) (kay)
Free Flow Custom Axelback (not major gains to be had over what you had)
New Aem Intake Filter (expecting much gains?)
Amsoil Synthetic Tranny and Gear Oil (good for winter and start up, no difference when warm)


So, like everyone else said, get it tuned. This is your biggest weakness right now. Also, drop weight where you can.

The main thing we do with our NA engines is improve efficiency. We can't make more power without moving more air/fuel through the system. This means we need more torque or more rpm. Torque comes from compression from different heads, lever arm of the crank(think stroker kit), and rpm come from reving the snot out of the engine(has to be built to do so). Everything else we do is to simply improve efficiency. Porting and polishing, custom headers, exhaust, cams, etc. are all working towards a gain in efficiency throughout the power band. This decreases losses but doesn't exactly make a lot of power. It's like lightweight pulleys, flywheels(not you), wheels/tires, etc. You're freeing up what should be there but is doing excess work and getting lost. If the 165hp engine was already 85% efficient, theoretically, you can only reach 100%, regardless of what you do, so you're bound to about 194HP if you could get to 100% efficiency. All other gains must come from physical modification of the motor to physically create more torque or move more air/fuel through the engine for a given time(rpm). A quick calculation is 1hp = 1.45cfm of air/fuel mixture. A 2.5L engine at 6500rpm runs 300cfm, so that's 205HP max theoretical. I assume this number is derived from the chemical reaction(100% reaction, all energy released, engine at 100% efficiency). However, we can see we need more displacement or more rpm to get more power for a gasoline mixture.

The tune will help a lot in boosting efficiency.

If you don't want to do major engine work, consider a swap to E85 if you have some in your area. You need to change injectors/fuel pump cause a lot more fuel is used. However, per volume of fuel/air in the combustion chamber, you are making more power than with regular gas. It's a nice route since it doesn't need major work on the engine. However, you do need it tuned. Gains can be somewhat significant. I have yet to work through any numbers, just sparse readings.

Hmm, I'll just find info...
Available energy
E85 = 83,263BTU
Gas = 114,000BTU
Gas seems to win, right? Wrong. The air/fuel ratio is different

Air/Fuel ratios
E85 = 9.8:1
Gas = 14.7:1
You end up with 45% more fuel dumped into the engine using E85 at ideal air/fuel ratios.

100% x 114,000BTU = 114,000BTU
145% x 83.263BTU = 121,000BTU
That's a 6% increase. Then there are some minor timing gains due to E85 having an equivalent octane of around 105. You're looking at around a 20HP gain. That's as good as any other mod we can do on our NA engines.

I just bring up E85 as an option, and since you'll already be tuning for the cams and intake/exhaust anyways. E85 could technically be done at the same time. It's also not a labor or cost intensive job like yanking out the engine and swapping heads, pistons, etc.
Thanks for all the info, yeah thats what I lack of "tune", got to get it quick. Unfortunately we don't have E85 over here in Puerto Rico, so I have to scratch that option.
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Old 02-21-2008, 04:01 PM   #21
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You need to tune. You did the "big power" mods in the beginning with an intake, headers, and HFC. The cams is only mild gain.

You have three problems.
1. Your ECU wants the car to run a certain way, it will de-tune your car so everything falls into the parameters it wants. Totally negating the usefullness of the cams. And mildly negating everything else.
2. You don't have a tune. When you get a tune, it will solve problem number 1.
3. Its a Forester. Automatic. Its heavy, and its an auto. (The torque converter shouldn't help or hurt anything except the launch.)
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoGsus View Post
1. Your ECU wants the car to run a certain way, it will de-tune your car so everything falls into the parameters it wants. Totally negating the usefullness of the cams. And mildly negating everything else.
From personal experience tuning the DBW NA Subie, this just isn't true. Could you either explain what you mean more explicitly, or perhaps rephrase it in case I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say?
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:27 PM   #23
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When my car tops out at 102 mph is that a problem from no tuning? When I was stock I hit about 117-120 mph easily. why is this? Is the overrvving not letting the car pass certain Speeds?
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:28 PM   #24
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No idea. If your top end dropped off, your vmax would lower. You HAVE to log. There's no way to answer your questions until you can get some hard data.
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
From personal experience tuning the DBW NA Subie, this just isn't true. Could you either explain what you mean more explicitly, or perhaps rephrase it in case I'm mis-understanding what you're trying to say?
I know this is true for MAP based cars, I don't know if DBW effects it or not, but it shouldn't.

For basic bolt on mods, I can put them on my
98 RS (MAF) and get 25 HP, if I put the same mods on my 2000 RS (MAP) I will get 10-15HP, and then get the rest after getting a tune. This holds true as long as you never push the MAF past its voltage/airflow range (and you won't with basic bolt-ons.)

As for lowering your top speed:
If your car is sticking at 102, that makes me think its not getting into 4th perhaps? That does sound like a problem in the tranny, not based on your power mods.
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