Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday May 30, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Warranty Issues & SOA Problems

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2008, 05:19 PM   #1
jellopower
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 114806
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Obsidian Black Pearl

Default Lemon law + denied warranty?

Here's the short version. Brought the 06 in for a clanky tranny issue. They futz around for a couple of days, finally look at the tranny, and try to deny my warranty, saying if its broke, it's because of abuse.

I escalate things up to corporate, call around, they finally cave, but say it's not a warranty repair, it's a "good will" repair and they're paying for it.

Cue the usual comedy of part order delays, wrong parts ordered, missing parts in the order, part that they didn't think needed to be replaced ending up needing a replacement, etc etc etc.

It's been in the shop for four weeks now.

It was supposed to be done today, but of course, there's yet another new issue, and it'll be next week before it's done. (I've heard this one for a while)

I'm considering invoking the lemon law at this point, but despite searching here and on the web in general, I'm not sure how it works with this "good will" repair deal.

Anyone have any insight? Is lemon law seperate from warranty entirely, or am I likely to run into a messy situation where they claim it was abused, and thus is not subject to lemon laws?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
jellopower is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 02-22-2008, 06:10 PM   #2
flstffxe
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 155358
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Vehicle:
2008 Forester
Steel Silver

Default

flstffxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 06:20 PM   #3
Mavrik
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 90347
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Anchorage AK
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ & Imp 2.5RS
Yamaha FZ8

Default

Lemon law may vary from state to state but usually requires you to have the same problem multiple times. In your case, just because of parts mix up's/abuse or what have you... probably doesn't make the car qualify for the lemon law.
Mavrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 01:08 AM   #4
armand1
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 10309
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
'02 OBS 2-tone!
'95 Montego Miata

Default

In some cases, the law is written to include cases where the car is out of service for x days due to the same reason; jp will have to look into the details for FL.
armand1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 05:04 AM   #5
IEWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13535
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Redlands, CA
Vehicle:
2006 300C SRT8
11 Durango 03 Vette Vert

Default

Lemon law will require multiple trips to the repair shop for the same issue ( can sometimes be different issues) as well as days out of service.
IEWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 09:02 AM   #6
car39
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 62356
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
1992 Legacy L FWD
White

Default

In Conneticut, it also has to impact "use and value". Four times in the shop with a blow cigarette lighter fuse doesn't cut it.
car39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 09:13 AM   #7
salisburyv
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 41863
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: warwick
Vehicle:
2015 STI
Crystal Black Silica

Default

In general, three (3) times in for the same repair and un-repaired after third attempt. Stupidity doesnt count. In the shop's defense.... there are alot of parts in the tranny, and sometimes the diagrams are not clear. It happened when they fixed my tranny in my STi. A bearing here, a syncro there... It sucked. 5 days. And my tech is not a moron. Thers just alot of parts in there. Good Luck
salisburyv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 09:30 AM   #8
WJM
Guest
 
Member#:
Default

Sounds like the OP is getting jacked around at the dealer.

I would have had the transmission out and apart in under 3 hrs with parts already ordered. Unless the gear is stripped or a shift fork broken/bent, I dont see what the deal it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 10:15 AM   #9
Hondaslayer
think you
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

This a goodwill situation, not warranty, so lemon law would typically have no place here (at least not in MI,your state may be different)
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 11:30 AM   #10
WJM
Guest
 
Member#:
Default

ya, goodwill does not count towards Lemons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 04:38 PM   #11
jellopower
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 114806
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Obsidian Black Pearl

Default

Well, here's the deal though. FL lemon law says 15 days pass with the car out of service, you notify the manufactuer. 30 days pass with it out of comission, and you can begin the arbitration process. It's getting real close to 30 days now (2 or 3 to go).

As far as the goodwill/warranty thing...

Basically I brought the car in, they tear it down, find out first gear broke a tooth or two, and tossed it around the tranny. They say they have a TSB that basically says broken transmission = driver abuse.

I fought that, because I don't race the car, I don't dump the clutch. I drive it to work in the morning, and I drive it home at night. That's about it. I asked them for any evidence of abuse, aside from a failed transmission, and they didn't tell me anything. They won't find bald tires, or a burnt clutch/flywheel. I feel like they're just trying to screw me out of the warranty that was supposed to come with the car when I purchased it new.

So anyway, they finally offered to repair it under good will. While they acted like I should be thrilled (and while I am admittedly glad I don't have to pay for it), from my perspective, they're just giving me what was promised with the car -- a warranty. I didn't abuse it, so they have no right to deny covering it.

On top of all this, I've been without a car for almost a month, and they gave me no loaner, since, again, this is good will, and not warranty.

So frusterating. I guess it'll have to go to court or arbitation next.
jellopower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 05:28 PM   #12
jellopower
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 114806
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Obsidian Black Pearl

Default

I saw the TSB in question, though. I don't see how they have the right to say "if this thing is broken, it had to be abuse".

I mean, can't they say that about anything? SoA writes up a big TSB that says "if x part breaks, it's abuse", and they save a ton on warranty coverage! Fraud, imo, unless said abuse happened in the 30 miles of test drives before I bought the car, and it just took 12,000 more miles for it to surface. :/

Oh well, thanks for the info.
jellopower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 06:56 PM   #13
munkis
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1847
Join Date: Jul 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: brokenmotorsports.com
Vehicle:
Team Broken: V6 GF
rallyarmor.com

Default

why dont you be thankfull for what you are getting. Too many people in this country are sue happy.
munkis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 08:26 PM   #14
JRSC13
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 49479
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: columbus
Vehicle:
05 05xt sti stg 2
pp

Default

no lemon law here, and you didn't say what was actually being replaced, just "some parts". i would be curious as to the list of parts being replaced, we see many wrx's with shredded first and second gear, most will get covered ONCE. and although the time frame is slow, how long were you waiting when you were talking about who was going to pay? it could be fixed quickly, but if you weren't authorizing it and the dealer was waiting so see if SOA was going to cover it, those days it was just sitting don't really count. you probably could have authorized it yourself and had it back in a week, and filed a claim with SOA, though to be honest i probably would have waited too.
JRSC13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 09:43 PM   #15
RexyGirl
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63616
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Mastro Subaru, Sanford FL
Vehicle:
1996 Volvo 850 Turbo
with mods :)

Default

Research was done before that TSB was issued, and it was deemed that broken gears are a sign of abuse, which is not covered by warranty. Stuff like that, from a major manufacturer cannot just be made up to deny warranty, otherwise WINNING lawsuits would be filed, and Subaru is not stupid.

I hate to say it, but I am sure if you think back, somewhere, there were a few times when you shifted too hard, launched the vehicle, etc. If not you, then someone you let borrow your car.

It has been discussed on this forum a million gazillion times, and all threads came to the same conclusion: broken gears = abuse.
RexyGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 11:37 PM   #16
flstffxe
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 155358
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
Vehicle:
2008 Forester
Steel Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexygirl View Post
Research was done before that TSB was issued, and it was deemed that broken gears are a sign of abuse, which is not covered by warranty. Stuff like that, from a major manufacturer cannot just be made up to deny warranty, otherwise WINNING lawsuits would be filed, and Subaru is not stupid.

I hate to say it, but I am sure if you think back, somewhere, there were a few times when you shifted too hard, launched the vehicle, etc. If not you, then someone you let borrow your car.

It has been discussed on this forum a million gazillion times, and all threads came to the same conclusion: broken gears = abuse.
Broken gears do not ALWAYS equal abuse. I have been in manufacturing and I have worked on enough stuff professionally to know that no mater how good you think the quality control is at weeding out the bad items during manufacturing and going down the assembly line, some items that should be rejected will make it into the finished product. It happens everyday from every manufacture, SOA is not immune. SOAs TSB (pdf) issued is just a blanket statement that is very open to interpretation. In the section regarding abusive driving SOA only says some examples of and then shows pictures of some of those examples. It does not state that a broken gear equals abuse, it tells the reader that a broken gear is a sign of abuse and lets them infer that a broken gear equals abuse.

From the TSB

Quote:
Racing / Abusive Driving
The term “racing” refers to all forms of racing whether street, drag, rally, sanctioned or unsanctioned,
etc. Any damage that results from racing is not warrantable.
Some examples of abusive driving are exceeding maximum recommended RPMs, excessive torque transferred to the transmission during acceleration from a complete stop (dumping the clutch), downshifting at high RPMs and missing shifts.
The photos below depict some results of abusive driving:
Second Gear Teeth Missing First Gear Teeth Stripped from Mainshaft
Reverse Gear Teeth Stripped Second Gear Teeth Missing
6-Speed 1-2 Shift Interlock
Arm Broken Damaged Land of Baulk Ring

SOA issued a TSB that is very subject to interpretation by dealers, warranty reps, service techs...... and has let them run with it. WHY not let them run with it, it saves SOA $$$. I have worked on enough broken transmissions and broken a few my self to know that by the time the driver hears the pop from parts breaking, they are not going to have any chance of stopping the damage that is about to ensue. So for any one to state that if a tooth is completely missing or if all the teeth are missing on a gear that it is with out a doubt abuse, has no idea of what is really going on in a tranny. Even with pushing in the clutch at the moment of the failure it still does not stop the out put shaft from turning every thing in the transmission, if there are broken pieces of gear/teeth in the way you can bet they are getting run through the rest of the gear/s to do more damage. Even at 1mph you will still have a 3,xxx plus pounds of momentum turning the wheels as the car comes to a stop. Turning wheels equals turning axles/driveshafts which means the transmission is also being turned, the clutch only disconnects the tranny from the engine not the rest of the driveline. In that time it takes for the car to come to a rest a lot of damage can occur.

I can think of several causes that would result in a tooth/teeth being sheared from a gear. Not surprisingly only one of them is abuse. The others are all manufacturing defects. Leaving out the simple ones like wrong material. You are left with gears be machined out of spec, causing the it to wear prematurely with added stress. Mis-handled at any point during manufacture/assembly causing surface damage to the teeth or even micro fractures. Improper heat treatment to harden the gears/shafts, heated for too long a time or too short a time. Not heated hot enough or heated too little. All of which could result in gears/shafts that are either too soft or are too hard and are then at a point of being brittle.

If you still want to say abuse. How about while the car was still in SOAs care. How was it secured on the boat when it came from Japan, was it left in gear loosely chained to rock back and forth. How about when it was loaded on the truck to be delivered to the dealer, how did the truck driver drive it when they loaded it?, did they take it for a abusive spin? Was it left in gear on the delivery truck? What about the lot boys at the dealer, did any of them take it out for a pounding after the pre delivery inspection when they were to detail it?

It is wrong for people to say it "is" abuse when a transmission fails. Are some of them abuse? HELL YES. Are all of them abuse HELL NO. There are a good many people that SOA, SOA warranty reps, service techs, service writers and dealers have wrongly denied warranty claims for on a failed tranny. Those people who had to wrongly pay for it out of pocket are more then likely lost future sales. Lost sales that don't just hurt SOA, but the dealer that it was denied at. Most dealers don't sell just one make any more, are you going to go back to a dealer that screwed you on a $4K+ repair that should have been warrantied. You can't tell any one that SOA has never had one bad gears/shaft/shift fork/bearing/part end up in the finished product.
flstffxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 11:55 AM   #17
Hondaslayer
think you
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

Guess you're right.

Nevermind the fact that it is always a WRX (never a RS, Forester, Forester XT, Legacy, Legacy GT) that has broken gears, just the WRX which is mainly driven by 17 - 25 year old males (which btw is the most likely candidate to beat the life out of cars)
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 12:06 PM   #18
Rizen
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157002
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Vehicle:
2011 STI Sedan
SWP + Dom2.5XTR

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaslayer View Post
Guess you're right.

Nevermind the fact that it is always a WRX (never a RS, Forester, Forester XT, Legacy, Legacy GT) that has broken gears, just the WRX which is mainly driven by 17 - 25 year old males (which btw is the most likely candidate to beat the life out of cars)
There are a lot of things between those models that can affect the life of the gears. Some of those cars you listed don't even use the same gears as the WRX.
Rizen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 12:31 PM   #19
blahhblahh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 86659
Join Date: May 2005
Vehicle:
2005 WRX Sedan
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by munkis View Post
why dont you be thankfull for what you are getting. Too many people in this country are sue happy.
If he does drive to and from work without racing, abusing his car, etc. then why wouldn't he. He bought the car which comes with a warranty. Something broke therefore they should fix it under warranty. And if they take a month to fix it they should at least give him a loaner. Too many people in this country are pushovers.
blahhblahh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 12:42 PM   #20
Hondaslayer
think you
Moderator
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
1998 Forester, lifted.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizen View Post
There are a lot of things between those models that can affect the life of the gears. Some of those cars you listed don't even use the same gears as the WRX.
The gears are close enough to call the same (save for ratio differences)

The main difference is one thing, the driver.

The other cars attract an entirely different driver than a WRX.
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 03:47 PM   #21
jellopower
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 114806
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Obsidian Black Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahhblahh View Post
If he does drive to and from work without racing, abusing his car, etc. then why wouldn't he. He bought the car which comes with a warranty. Something broke therefore they should fix it under warranty. And if they take a month to fix it they should at least give him a loaner. Too many people in this country are pushovers.
That's exactly my point. I would be thankful for getting a freebie IF I did abuse the car. I didn't. I was offered a warranty when I bought the car, and to be accused of abusing it, simply because a part failed, and then threatened with a denial of claim just irritates me. Who wouldn't be irritated in the same circumstances?

For those asking, the car was sitting at the dealer for 3 days before they even got around to pulling the tranny. Then 2 days while I fought with SoA getting them to agree to fix it. I'll post a list of repairs once I get it, but so far, most of my dealing has been over the phone, and vague reasons like "wrong parts came in", or "part wasn't ordered" or "bearing we didn't think we had to replace ended up needing to be replaced."

The latest is they got it all assembled, back on the car, but test drive failed due to it popping out of one of the gears. So a snap ring has been overnighted, which so far, has taken 3 days to arrive "overnight". :/

Oh, and the snap ring they originally ordered was defective. It's unreasonable to expect that sometimes transmissions fail due to manufacturing defects, but something as simple as a snap ring arrives defective when they repair my "abused" transmission... that strikes me as kinda funny.
jellopower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 03:54 PM   #22
jellopower
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 114806
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Florida
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
Obsidian Black Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaslayer View Post
Guess you're right.

Nevermind the fact that it is always a WRX (never a RS, Forester, Forester XT, Legacy, Legacy GT) that has broken gears, just the WRX which is mainly driven by 17 - 25 year old males (which btw is the most likely candidate to beat the life out of cars)
I'd imagine there are other variables aside from driver involved in the equation. Do the other cars put out as much power and torque as the WRX? Perhaps the other's trannys are overengineered for their power levels, while the WRX is not? Do they all share the same drivetrain in other areas? Maybe it could be something as simple as the WRX comes with stickier tires, and their better grip transfers more shock to the gears. Or a different grippier clutch. I dunno. I'm not well versed enough in any of this to point out any concrete reasons, although I think distilling the argument down to the driver being the only variable of note isn't a valid argument.

I really have no reason to lie about not abusing the car. I'm almost 30, a software programmer, married with a kid on the way, and spend my free time playing computer games (and none of them are racing games :P). I probably miss the street racer demographic, eh?
jellopower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 05:10 PM   #23
Suber Krout
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 147418
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Reseda, California
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Limited SW
Crystal Gray

Default

User error!
Suber Krout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2008, 08:05 PM   #24
RexyGirl
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 63616
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Mastro Subaru, Sanford FL
Vehicle:
1996 Volvo 850 Turbo
with mods :)

Default

Quote:
I imagine a lot of it has to do with how much you are expecting out of it, and how "in touch" you are with the car's performance.

I have an 06, and from the underwhelming dyno numbers (something like .4hp at peak) I wasn't expecting much. Tack on to that that I came from an NA car before, where a big increase from a bolton mod was 5hp, I wasn't expecting the AP to do much for me when I flashed to stage 1.

But overall, I was extremely impressed once I got behind the wheel. The powerband smoothness in the 2000-4000 range was impressive. No hesitation, just pure oomph.

I can't wait until stage 2
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1050852
RexyGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2008, 07:58 AM   #25
conker69
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 59692
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Vehicle:
2005 Impreza WRX STi
WRB-Gold

Default

LOL...you're above stock power levels....no warranty...case closed.
conker69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lemon Law Plaintiff to Pay Subaru $75K in WRX Warranty Dispute clam Southern California Impreza Club Forum -- SCIC 18 06-22-2004 02:13 AM
Dealer says SOA reps are voiding warranties and denying warranty work PaulRex Warranty Issues & SOA Problems 31 08-08-2002 11:52 PM
Lemon Laws-any such thing in Canada Scoobie Newbie Canada Region Forum 1 02-10-2002 11:03 PM
Lemon Law help? albunny88 New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 7 10-04-2001 11:56 PM
Lemon Laws+Aftermarket parts Youngun General Forum Archive 0 02-22-2001 02:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.