Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 1, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-29-2009, 12:23 PM   #51
stu
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25768
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: CO springs
Vehicle:
35R bugeye
Slowbaru

Default

i think he is confused he thinks that both lines on the left are from the stock and both the right line are the el he is not looking at the red and blue of each.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
stu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 12:31 PM   #52
CoolRex
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 85813
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
Vehicle:
2002 E46 M3
2006 RC51

Default

Blue line is stock headers tq/hp. Red line is EL Maddad headers tq/hp.
CoolRex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 01:05 PM   #53
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
i think he is confused he thinks that both lines on the left are from the stock and both the right line are the el he is not looking at the red and blue of each.
Yes that is what i thought. Now I see.

This then, looks to be the most impressive header gains I have seen!
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 12:14 AM   #54
zeropsi
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 175453
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: wilCO, IL
Vehicle:
AE86 GT-S coupe
i <3 alqonquin homosauce

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JASWRX View Post
so you are saying off boost and below full torque, the Equal Length is much more drivable and feels more torque down low?
That's the best way I can describe mine. The car feels almost like an N/A car in a very good way. It's not nearly as boggy and anemic down low...way smoother than stock, a lot more torque, and since I'm also running higher compression, it's even stronger out of boost.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolRex View Post
Yes definately. But you also have to use a good setup. I liked the maddad's because the 1.6" piping. That's bigger than stock. The only downside is that you have to heat them up to get full power but header wrapping them solves that issue. Mine are ceramic coated but when I put the built 2.5L I will be header wrapping them.
Can't emphasize the importance of header wrap enough. If nothing else, help prevent cracking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
You honestly don't see how the light red line (after header torque) goes up on the chart before the light blue line (before header torque)? REALLY?!?!?! This indicates he's producing quite a bit more power earlier in the powerband. On a turbocharged car, that usually means it's spooling faster (torque has to come from somewhere).
Here's the graph one more time...



If you don't see that, you either need to:

A: get your eyes checked
B: Hit yourself in the face with a hammer and give up
That's exactly what my car did pre/post header. It comes on stronger and earlier...helps spool. I'm spooling a TD05 20G @ 22.5psi before 3100RPM. Header helped a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolRex View Post
^^^^Yes.

It's not insane faster spool but it's faster spool nontheless. Instead of a smooth pull back now the car literally snaps and plants your head back.

Also note that simply slapping headers on won't help much....I actually lost power because the AFR went from 11.0:1 to 10.2:1 in the upper rpms. But tuning for the headers made all the difference.
Mine's only snappy down low because there's a bump in torque right around/after full boost that smooths out. Otherwise the car's so smooth I have to look down @ the speedo to see how fast I'm accelerating.
zeropsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 02:47 PM   #55
OBPNUT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114652
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: East Tennessee
Vehicle:
06 OBP WRX
86 VW Scirocco

Default

Whats the differences between the Perrin and the Maddad EL headers? As far as piping size anyway.
OBPNUT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 05:10 PM   #56
Ferraz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 173553
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Sao Paulo
Vehicle:
1996 Civic VTi
Dark blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeropsi View Post
Can't emphasize the importance of header wrap enough. If nothing else, help prevent cracking.
That is new to me... Always thought it was the othre way around.
Ferraz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 07:05 PM   #57
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

I have a feeling this is going to be the product talk of the year. I have studied many header grpaphs, tuned and not tuned, different turbos, etc, and this seems to be by far the best overall. Does anyboyd know what is so magical in this header lets say compared to the popular APS, Tomei, and Perrin. Those are the only other ones I have considered.

It seems staying UNequal Length just makes no sense. I feel in years to come, most Subaru's will be running EL as people start to catch on.
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 07:59 PM   #58
zeropsi
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 175453
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: wilCO, IL
Vehicle:
AE86 GT-S coupe
i <3 alqonquin homosauce

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferraz View Post
That is new to me... Always thought it was the othre way around.
Hmmm...that's not the case with my Tomei. 15K daily driven miles, and one nasty winter, and it's just fine. Maybe it's different from header to header, and maybe mine wouldn't crack if unwrapped too, but all the cracked headers I've seen in person weren't wrapped. Oh well.
zeropsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 08:22 PM   #59
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

Bump!
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 08:39 PM   #60
Ferraz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 173553
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Sao Paulo
Vehicle:
1996 Civic VTi
Dark blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeropsi View Post
Hmmm...that's not the case with my Tomei. 15K daily driven miles, and one nasty winter, and it's just fine. Maybe it's different from header to header, and maybe mine wouldn't crack if unwrapped too, but all the cracked headers I've seen in person weren't wrapped. Oh well.
Not saying you are wrong! It is just that i read (somewhere) that wrap will hold heat and that will make easier for the headers to crack.

But I'm a complete n00b and I know ***t! can any of the Gurus help with the correct info?

Regards
Ferraz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 10:34 PM   #61
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

^^^^^ya i want to know this too
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 10:44 PM   #62
FuJi K
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 3687
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: St. Paul, MN
Vehicle:
MY99 GF4 JDM 6spd
NF Performance

Default

First of all.... most headers out there, even though made of "stainless steel" they are just too thin. The headers will shift, push and pull and you have stress points, then they crack there because they can't shift from being warped with excessive heat. Thin pipes.... No good.... I've had to enlarge my flange's bolt holes because they kept on shifting. I removed at least 1/8" and ovaled the bolt holes.

People just read hearing aftermarket headers "crack." However they don't know WHY.... that's funny. ... okies... carry on
FuJi K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 11:06 PM   #63
Ferraz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 173553
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Sao Paulo
Vehicle:
1996 Civic VTi
Dark blue

Default

^^ Thanks!
Ferraz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2009, 11:32 PM   #64
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

^^^ Well explained.
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 09:43 PM   #65
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

BUMP for more people that own this header!!
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:11 PM   #66
lennybootzz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 190811
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: LONG ISLAND NY
Vehicle:
04 gt35r built
wrb sti

Default

bottom line if you really want the best bang for buck "turbo Upgrade" Uneq is a waste of time & $. The stock headers retain heat wayyy better!
lennybootzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:29 PM   #67
JSarv
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 163445
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Effingham IL (Central IL)
Vehicle:
l33t *******
12.07@115.9mph-EJ205

Default

also note we have 2 piece blocks and two heads that the headers connect to.. Then there is gravity...

So expansion, just like Fuji mentioned becomes a HUGE issue - where Honda's/Mitsu's and so forth have a single head and no expansion issues.

Several things could fix cracking - not so much the size of piping (referring to my GSXR 1000 Ti Force Exhaust that was paper thin.. and Titanium and came down from 1000's of wheelies (some a little rough) and never cracked)

The difference? Weld quality and design...

I think a goood set of 321 18gauge headers that are tig welded and properly back purged with a set of Burns slip couplings/high temp springs - would clear up almost all cracking problems... Another bracket holding the Up-pipe in place would also help.

1 Piece headers with no slip joint or flex pipe is a sure crack..

-Jerod
JSarv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:35 PM   #68
Deuce Cam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 130444
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chandler
Vehicle:
'85 AE86 GTS

Default

Boxer rumble? More like unequal length manifold rumble. I'm still amazed at how attached people are to this sound.

Tomei has some good info on this subject on their site http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/news/Report-EJ25-V1.html#C3.1 (chapter 3)

Cliff notes (pros): unequal length provides slightly better spool and equal length improves cylinder uniformity which usually means more power. I wouldn't expect a huge difference either way.
Deuce Cam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:46 PM   #69
Deuce Cam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 130444
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chandler
Vehicle:
'85 AE86 GTS

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JASWRX View Post
I have a feeling this is going to be the product talk of the year. I have studied many header grpaphs, tuned and not tuned, different turbos, etc, and this seems to be by far the best overall. Does anyboyd know what is so magical in this header lets say compared to the popular APS, Tomei, and Perrin. Those are the only other ones I have considered.

It seems staying UNequal Length just makes no sense. I feel in years to come, most Subaru's will be running EL as people start to catch on.
Subaru obviously caught on when they started offering a equal length manifold/ts turbo setup around 8 years ago. Unfortunately, from my experience on the forums it won't be catching on in the US anytime soon because everyone is so in love with the boxer rumble, just read this thread for example. Apparently the boxer rumble doesn't have much of a following in Japan because the uel manifolds are old technology. Honestly, Subaru has absolutely no reason to offer a ts setup here because most seem to think uel is better because of the sound. If a ts system was forced on us by Subaru I can imagine a bunch of fanboys boycotting it because it sounds like EVO or a Honda .
Deuce Cam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 01:20 AM   #70
zeropsi
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 175453
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: wilCO, IL
Vehicle:
AE86 GT-S coupe
i <3 alqonquin homosauce

Default

I'd say it's more Nissan-ish than anything.
zeropsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 01:50 AM   #71
Deuce Cam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 130444
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chandler
Vehicle:
'85 AE86 GTS

Default

I'd say it sounds like a 4 banger more than anything, is that so bad? After all that's what it is. I just used the EVO and Honda example sarcastically because they are typical uel fanboy cliche's.
Deuce Cam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 10:56 AM   #72
JASWRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40742
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: LA, Ca
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
WRB

Default

anybody else....
JASWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 11:52 AM   #73
Billy Mays
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 213098
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: the yukatan
Vehicle:
2006 Subaru WRX
WRB

Default

i would go w/ equal... if you want your car to sound like a freakin HONDA
Billy Mays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 12:53 PM   #74
Ferraz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 173553
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Sao Paulo
Vehicle:
1996 Civic VTi
Dark blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Mays View Post
i would go w/ equal... if you want your car to sound like a freakin HONDA
Good one ... Old too

Will post this one more time, just in case you are serious.

here is your Honda: http://videos.hspn.com/?videoid=21&catid=1

Regards
Ferraz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 12:56 PM   #75
CoolRex
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 85813
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
Vehicle:
2002 E46 M3
2006 RC51

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Mays View Post
i would go w/ equal... if you want your car to sound like a freakin HONDA
Sounds nothing like a Honda. While you are moaning about sound.....enjoy getting walked by the car with the same setup as your except EL header and tuned for it.
CoolRex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GT-Spec equal length vs. unequal length headers SW00P_G Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 31 02-17-2009 07:40 AM
equal vs unequal length headers on an 06 TR VRT Gump Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 25 08-06-2007 04:28 PM
Please compare equal vs. unequal length headers... shemoves Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 6 09-02-2006 02:44 PM
Equal length vs. Unequal length headers 4080wrx Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 6 09-21-2004 10:03 PM
Equal Vs Unequal length headers Onederer Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 2 05-10-2002 02:13 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.