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Old 02-16-2008, 08:18 PM   #1
japslapr
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Default Built 205 goes down already.

Post 24: Found the problem. Listen to this BS.



Yup... motor has to come out already. About a month ago once the car broken in on boost I got some pretty bad valve train noise. Contemplated pulling the motor but decided not to. Well, I got on it today and it just didn't seem to be pulling right and when I got out of it the car would not idle and the ticking was WAY louder and prominent. Motor was shaking its ass off too. Thing is, I still have perfect oil pressure. Over 20psi at "idle" (feathering the gas lightly) and it jumps up immediately when I step on the gas. What in the hell in the head could have let loose that would cause this problem? I'm hoping its something minor in the head. Pulling the motor next weekend. Any idea's?

Fred
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Last edited by japslapr; 03-12-2008 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 02-16-2008, 10:02 PM   #2
mick_the_ginge
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Not sure, but it's going to be fun finding out, well fun for us, not for you. Keep your chin up, it's just a motor.

I say bent valve, pull the spark plugs before you pull the block just in case you ate one.
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Old 02-16-2008, 10:21 PM   #3
japslapr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Not sure, but it's going to be fun finding out, well fun for us, not for you. Keep your chin up, it's just a motor.

I say bent valve, pull the spark plugs before you pull the block just in case you ate one.
I'm really not overly concerned with it. I've gotten to the point where I've realized, no matter how much time in efort goes into it... it is still just a car. Don't get me wrong, it sucks... but I'm not letting it stres me out or anything. I mean hell, we knew it would break. It just happened way sooner than expected. Now just to figure out why.

I'll pull plugs and check oil before pulling the motor out and see if they tell me anything.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:37 AM   #4
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What was your piston to wall clearance?
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:21 AM   #5
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Sorry to hear that the motor let go already, I have been following your build. Have you contacted Abacus yet? Abacus built your motor and tuned your car correct?
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Old 02-19-2008, 05:59 PM   #6
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Not sure of the piston to wall clearance.

I'll be pulling the motor next weekend and taking it back to abacus, yes. I have no clue what went wrong yet although I'm pretty sure its just something in the head. Abacus did not tune my car. Either way, I'm not pointing fingers at my builder or tuner. **** breaks..... it always sucks, but it happens. Could be part failure.... who knows. I'll post up when I find the culprit.
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:56 PM   #7
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sorry to hear it fred. I'd be game to help pull it but I'm out of town next weekend
sounds like bent valve possibly. The real question is what would have caused it. Before you disassemble, double check the lash on all the lobs. If something comes up there mic the buckets and the bucket guides to see if they may be grabbing and sticking.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:28 PM   #8
japslapr
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Started to go through the car today. Spark plugs were fine, oil looked clean. Compression test told another story.

105
115
120
0

I got most of the crap out of the way and ready to pull the motor. Will finish up this week and see what broke and if there's any piston or wall damage.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:31 PM   #9
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do you have any compression test numbers prior to failure too? Just something to compare the other 3 to.
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:59 PM   #10
mick_the_ginge
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Sorry to read this, it's got to be a valve. I had stuck valves once due to a retainer failure; compression test was 0.

If you are lucky the valves are just stuck
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:26 AM   #11
japslapr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
Sorry to read this, it's got to be a valve. I had stuck valves once due to a retainer failure; compression test was 0.

If you are lucky the valves are just stuck
Mick... when this happened, did you get a hellified tick? The valve train noise was BAD.

No other compression numbers.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:10 AM   #12
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No noise, the car would run horrible. The valves were going up and down but due to the retainer issue the valves would float rather than seat.

If you have noise then I would say something has broken or bent!
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:30 PM   #13
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Also another good trick we use here at Element is to put a little oil into the cylinder and run the compression test again. If it comes up then you know it's something with the cylinder/rings/piston. If it doesn't come up then a leak down is the way to go as you can hear the air escaping out the throttle body if its an intake valve or out the exhaust if it's an exhaust valve.

We did this on an engine we have here that was getting only 25 psi in one of the cylinders. We added oil and once it worked around it went up to 100 psi which is still low but it confirmed that it's most likely piston/rings/cylinder.

Good luck.
Phil
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 02-26-2008 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:37 PM   #14
mick_the_ginge
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I want to try this thing:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=1CO2H7PYDTOPQ

Not sure if the camera head will fit in the spark plug hole.
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Old 02-26-2008, 07:01 PM   #15
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I'd rather just do a leakdown test, tells exactly whats wrong for hte most part.
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
I want to try this thing:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=1CO2H7PYDTOPQ

Not sure if the camera head will fit in the spark plug hole.
Well... it doesn't look like it'll fit. The camera head is .7" in diameter.
http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/SeeSnake-micro

I used a cheaper scope that used fiber optics, but the resolution was pretty poor. You could see some detail, but not a bunch.

Russ
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:51 AM   #17
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what cams are you running and what did you set your valve lash to? I only ask because many people just throw cams in and never check the valve lash or replace buckets. I did that once... just once.

-Dominic
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:17 PM   #18
japslapr
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My best friend is a boat mechanic for Volvo Penta and he's bringing one of those tiny camera's home to see if it will work to see the problem.

I did not build the motor so I have no clue of any of the tolerances. I'm pretty sure all of this was checked. 280* cams, .414 lift, crower S4's. Brian crower springs, brian crower +1mm valves. New shimless buckets.

Last edited by japslapr; 03-12-2008 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:32 PM   #19
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Is the entire turbo destroyed or just the compressor housing? There's often a chance to salvage bits.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by japslapr View Post

So... as it stands, I have destroyed 8k worth of motor and a 1800 dollar turbo..... so far of course.
OUCH! Good luck with everything.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:57 PM   #21
japslapr
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Alright. More conclusive evidence and info. First off, turbo is completely fine. From the initial angle I was looking at it, it looked like a hole but in fact is just part of the casting where the inlet opens up into the center section. Just took closer looking at it.

Friend brought home that camera and by sticking it into the spark plug hole and the intake manifold holes we could see exactly what was damaged. Definitely a bent valve. Not dropped. The piston has a minor scuff on it and that is it. Should be salvageable. Cool litle camera. We tried to hook it up to the computer to take photo's of the cylinder but had problems hooking the two up and getting it to work. Very useful tool to have.

Leakdown test showed air only coming out of the TB. No pressure at all in the oil system or exhaust.

The question now is why. Motor goes back to the machinist tomorrow. All of my Valvetrain parts, cams, valves, springs, etc... are all Crower pieces.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:11 PM   #22
mick_the_ginge
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Maybe a broken retainer so the valve floated.....
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Old 03-04-2008, 08:39 AM   #23
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post those pics. I want a camera like that.
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:55 PM   #24
japslapr
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Alright. Motor apart and we have found the culprit. No broken retainers, no broken springs. Buckets looked great. But after removing the head the machinist did notice that it wasn't just the #2 cylinder with valve marks nor just the intake valves. Every single one of my valves had touched their respective piston at some point.... on BOTH sides. All four cylinders had marks in perfect position in the valve reliefs in the pistons. All of the pieces in my heads are Crower units. Springs, valves, retainers, cams and everything was dialed into their specs. My builder calls and speaks to David Crower and finds out that the spring pressures are not strong enough to close the valves at my boost pressure and engine speed (22/28psi-7800rpm). This was a bit shocking to hear considering their website says 8500+ for these cams and springs. The problem is with the boost I was running. I guess boost pressure works against the spring so when I went into my high boost setting at 28psi, the valves were floating. He says that the springs have to be shimmed to get the neccessary pressures.

I'm slightly pissed to say the least. Having said that I am glad that it is only 16 valves that need replaced and not an entire long block. This could have been much worse. But it is still complete and utter bull**** that I'm coming out of pocket another $2k for a manufacturer **** up.

So, for those of you running Crower springs (which are the exact same as BC Springs) running similar pressures spinning to similar RPM..... be careful.

On another note... does anyone have compression numbers or know where they should be around for a 8.7:1 motor. When I heard the 105-115-120 I thought it was a bit on the low side. Wondering if the other valves are slightly bent as well causing this.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:24 PM   #25
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That's a real bummer, and I hesitate to say this, but have you considered possible rod bearing damage due to the piston hits? If you have it out and apart, it might be worth a look-see. That energy was transferred to something...
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