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Old 03-03-2008, 06:49 PM   #1
aenima4six2
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Default Just Got Tuned & Iffy about the Results - Please Read

Ok, so with all the 07 fueling issues going around i decided to upgrade my stage 2 STI to some 800cc DW injectors. I got these from a friend (bought but never used them for his old bug eye) for $100. I wanted to see what everyone thought of the tuning.

In particular, the fueling tables stood out to me because he tuned them all near Stoich AFR's. On a stock car this would be murder as this is far to lean for any Open loop fueling table. My gut feeling is that the injectors are flowing excess fuel, so he tuned the whole table leaner to compensate for this. The only thing I am afraid of is AF learning adjustments are going to eventually lean the car out to the designated values in the open loop tables.

The car ran 11.1 on the dyno at peak load, but I can see Air Fuel Learning D ranges already trimming fuel by 3.5% (I will reset the ECU if it goes any lower).

Please see the image below to analyze the current fuel table setups.

Any advice would be appreciated.

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Last edited by aenima4six2; 03-04-2008 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:53 PM   #2
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WTH is with that fueling table?!?
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:07 PM   #3
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After you put on aftermarket injectors and an intake it usually is hard to make your fuel map and actual AFR line up perfectly (and possibly a waste of time). That alone doesn't mean anything is necessarily wrong. In fact they aren't perfect on a stock car.

But that is pretty far off... I would have scaled up the injectors more if I had to lean a fuel map out that much under high load and high rpm.

There may be nothing wrong with the way the car runs. As long as your "Target afr" is not >14.5 or so it will be in open loop. It won't matter what is in the fuel map as long as it causes the right results.

Your "D" fuel trim changing a lot will affect it, BUT that indicates a problem with MAF scaling more than it does the open loop fuel mapping. Changing the fuel map where it is already in open loop will not fix a drifting fuel trim.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:15 PM   #4
aenima4six2
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Awesome, thanks for the input.

I am confused on how the MAF scalings change the drift in the Fuel Learning, but can have nothing to do with the actual value in the Open Loop Fueling map. Anyway you could further explain?

Also, I used the enginuity test release MAF re-scale tool several times on this map. AF Learning A varies from -4 to -6 %, B is at + .10, C is at -.20% and D is so far stuck at -3.5%. Please correct me if I am wrong, this means that the D range (open loop fueling) AFRs are being trimmed by -3.5%, but in accordance to what? I was under the impression that the ECU used the MAF to calculate Actual AFR's in closed loop, then compare them to the assigned values in open loop, and make adjustments from there (the adjustment is the amount of the D range correction). Is this wrong?

By the way, My car is an 07 STI with standard Stage 2 Mods.

Last edited by aenima4six2; 03-03-2008 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:53 PM   #5
aenima4six2
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so im pretty much convinced that the tune is not so great. I reverted back to the rom file that does not have my post MAF rescaling. The car afterfires a lot, AF Learnig A-D are all over the place. A-C are mostly postive, A is around 5-10, B is 12.3, C and D are still learning negative.

What do you guys think I should do - A) Request a refund B) Have them re do it (assuming he knows how to fix), or C) Bite it and go else where for a tune.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:56 PM   #6
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I'd get a refund and go elsewhere...
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:39 AM   #7
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Wow, that is easily the worst fuel map I have seen in a long time.

What are you mods my good sir?

Are you willing to post more shots of the rom?

I would like to see the DA/TA tables and base timing tables.

I would never tune my own or anyone else that way. Wow.
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aenima4six2 View Post
Awesome, thanks for the input.

I am confused on how the MAF scalings change the drift in the Fuel Learning, but can have nothing to do with the actual value in the Open Loop Fueling map. Anyway you could further explain?

Also, I used the enginuity test release MAF re-scale tool several times on this map. AF Learning A varies from -4 to -6 %, B is at + .10, C is at -.20% and D is so far stuck at -3.5%. Please correct me if I am wrong, this means that the D range (open loop fueling) AFRs are being trimmed by -3.5%, but in accordance to what? I was under the impression that the ECU used the MAF to calculate Actual AFR's in closed loop, then compare them to the assigned values in open loop, and make adjustments from there (the adjustment is the amount of the D range correction). Is this wrong?

By the way, My car is an 07 STI with standard Stage 2 Mods.
I would be more worried with how your tuner handled the 2007 STI timing strategy. Seeing their ineptitude at scaling injectors and an intake firsthand, I would be scared for my pistons lives.

The ECU learns trims in closed loop using the MAF and front O2. The final learning range is applied to open loop. So in your case -3.5%. However, there is no adjustment in open loop, because like its name implies, there is no closed feedback from sensors (not fueling related, at least).

You can almost think of your MAF scaling as having two parts. The first is the area you can access in closed loop. Scaling this part of the MAF is pretty simple using the MAF tool or MickeyDs spreadsheet. The second chunk is the area you hit in open loop. Airboy's spreadsheet has a useful tool for scaling this, as you will need to log the discrepancy between the AFR from your wideband, and the map AFR. Don't stress about this one, because of the nature of the MAF housing, the error margin in the high voltages is generally pretty low, as long as the injector scaling is close. Like Freon said just make sure you can get a flat AFR out the back of the car, even if the numbers in your fueling map aren't perfect.

This is all made more complicated because your closed loop trims can be affected pretty heavily by injector latency.

Who tuned the car? Are they on this site?
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benw View Post
Who tuned the car? Are they on this site?
Whoever it is, they need to be removed from the keyboard. +1 on this being the absolute worst fuel map in history, considering Subaru doesn't do such a hot job originally.

Are you running meth injection? I can't imagine doing that to a pump gas fuel table.
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Old 03-04-2008, 04:54 PM   #10
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What's with the idle area in the 13s?? It makes no sense.
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:02 PM   #11
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It looks like for one reason or another the tuner decided the car should idle in Open Loop, which is just retarded unless you're going to entirely disable Closed Loop.
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:33 PM   #12
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When the tuner deviates from normal tuning philosophy, it's really hard to diagnose what he was attempting to do.

The idle is one case in point.

From the AFR target posed, it looks like it is in open loop at idle, but it isn't because his OL/CL delay is not zero. (Gabedude reviewed the rom and said it wasn't zero.) We wouldn't know that unless we looked at the rom. We could also infer that it was not in open loop at idle because his AFR Learning A is non-zero.
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Old 03-04-2008, 07:38 PM   #13
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Doh, that was a stupid assumption of mine.

So, if it's going to be in CL at idle anyway, does changing that area of the fuel map do anything at all?
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Old 03-04-2008, 08:20 PM   #14
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Depending upon the delays, it may or may not pop out of CL and into OL for a small amount of time but then it'll pop right back into CL. I just don't see why anyone would adjust it that way.

It is a mystery.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #15
aenima4six2
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Thanks to all of the above readers who have reviewed and suggested advise on the current situation.

I have a few more questions that I was hoping you all could advise on.

A) I have already brought the issue to the tuners attention, should I let them recalse the injectors, and Maf, and try to get the fuel tables more accurate, Or should I instead request a refund and go elsewhere?

B) Would injector deadtimes need to be adjusted from factory values which are currently in place? These injectors are DW 800CC injectors, and I believe they are basically ported Densos from the 2002 to 2005 series WRX. If deadtime did need to be adjusted, shoud I use the dead time from the stock 2002 WRX?

C) My AF correction and Learning values are all over the place on this map. Would you all recommended that I use the RomRaider MAF scaler to rescale the MAF tables? I did this at first, and it kept them all much closer to zero, but i reverted back to the original tune because I wanst sure how this would effect the long term learning and fueling of the car.

D) The original map used a modified APS maf scaling in the tune. I cant understand for the life of me why those scalings no longer keep AF learning near zero on this tune (with the bigger injectors), any ideas?

Thanks Again..
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remnex View Post
Wow, that is easily the worst fuel map I have seen in a long time.

What are you mods my good sir?

Are you willing to post more shots of the rom?

I would like to see the DA/TA tables and base timing tables.

I would never tune my own or anyone else that way. Wow.
My mods are Full turbo back exhaust (invidia catted D/P with Perrin Catback), APS cold Air, 800cc DW Injectors (DW ported Densos from a bugeye WRX), Walbro Fuel Pump.

I am willing to post pretty much whatever other part of the map you need, just PM me and I can send it.

Timing tables are actually perfect. They were tuned by Gabedude in his XPT modified maps. My tuner did not adjust timing or boost.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:41 PM   #17
mickeyd2005
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You're way in over your head to fix this by yourself.

IF AFR Learning D was stable between -2 and +4%, then I would say this tune is fine regardless of how I disagree with it philosphically.

Unfortunately, your AFR D is -3.5% and doesn't appear to have stabilized (correct me if I'm wrong). You'll have to get that part fixed. Find a local tuner with a WBO2 and see if they can help you.
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aenima4six2 View Post
My mods are Full turbo back exhaust (invidia catted D/P with Perrin Catback), APS cold Air, 800cc DW Injectors (DW ported Densos from a bugeye WRX), Walbro Fuel Pump.

I am willing to post pretty much whatever other part of the map you need, just PM me and I can send it.

Timing tables are actually perfect. They were tuned by Gabedude in his XPT modified maps. My tuner did not adjust timing or boost.
The problem that you are talking about and the reason you upgraded injectors actually isn't a fuel flow issue, its a closed loop, open loop delay issue that causes the car to run lean at low boost levels and potentially blow the motor.

That being said, I do have a very good map that resolves that and quite a few other issues with the 07 STi. Let me know if you are interested in an internet tuning package, I can get your car dialed in. I couldn't believe the fuel map when I saw it.
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:59 PM   #19
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edited, sorry bout that...

Last edited by scraggy; 03-05-2008 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:39 AM   #20
aenima4six2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 555 Motorsports View Post
The problem that you are talking about and the reason you upgraded injectors actually isn't a fuel flow issue, its a closed loop, open loop delay issue that causes the car to run lean at low boost levels and potentially blow the motor.

That being said, I do have a very good map that resolves that and quite a few other issues with the 07 STi. Let me know if you are interested in an internet tuning package, I can get your car dialed in. I couldn't believe the fuel map when I saw it.
I was using one of Gabe's XPT maps as a base map, which took care of the transition issues. As far as the injectors, I went to 800cc becuase I was consistently hitting over 100% IDC, and wanted to have some extra headroom for safety. Thanks though, I appreciate the offer!
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