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Old 03-04-2008, 09:22 AM   #1
savageblitz
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Default Hooking up LC-1

Does anyone have any links that shows how to hook up Innovate's LC-1 to a subaru and eventually to getting it working with romraider?

Something like the link here would help greatly: http://www.lukekailburn.com/lc1.html

(I'm really unsure which wires should go where).. Thanks for any help.
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Old 03-04-2008, 12:16 PM   #2
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...php?p=19084368

i installed mine a bit differently though.
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:11 PM   #3
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Savage, the LC-1's manual is pretty specific. That should contain everything you need to know to install on a Subie.
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Old 03-05-2008, 03:03 AM   #4
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awesome! thanks guys, that's exactly what I need. :-)
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:35 AM   #5
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The LC-1 Manual is a joke. Neither the Manual nor Apexi have specific info on Subies in the last 4 years or so.

I talked to someone at PDX tuning, and I am glad I did. The 06 WRX ECU has a different pinout than other years...
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
The LC-1 Manual is a joke. Neither the Manual nor Apexi have specific info on Subies in the last 4 years or so.

I talked to someone at PDX tuning, and I am glad I did. The 06 WRX ECU has a different pinout than other years...
You don't need specific information about Subies to install an LC-1. The only thing you need from the car is a power and a ground. If you can't find that on your own, step away from the wrench, man.

The LC-1 manual tells you exactly which wires need to go where, speaks to grounding concerns, tells you how to deal with the sensor... what more do you want?
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
You don't need specific information about Subies to install an LC-1. The only thing you need from the car is a power and a ground. If you can't find that on your own, step away from the wrench, man.

The LC-1 manual tells you exactly which wires need to go where, speaks to grounding concerns, tells you how to deal with the sensor... what more do you want?
While I agree that it would be nice to have it say, "Tap the red wire into the black/yellow wire coming from the radio (colors made up by me)...", you should be able to figure it out pretty easily.

All of the necessary wires can be found off of the radio.
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:44 PM   #8
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While I see what you mean, you have to remember this isn't a Subaru-specific part. It works with literally every car. There are hundreds of thousands of combinations Innovate would have to list to provide the level of information you're looking for.
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:44 PM   #9
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Whoops, just re-read what you wrote and saw you agree with me, lol.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:23 PM   #10
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ya sorry about that, I just installed an AVC-R, and I confused the manuals lol.

The LC-1 manual is great, do what it says.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:27 PM   #11
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And of course, my LC-1 chooses tonight to crap out on me. Grrrrr...
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:04 AM   #12
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Care to share what happened? I'm going to hookup mine this weekend. Would be nice to know what can go wrong :-)

BTW, how do you guys normally join the red wires? Do you:

1. solder it in like the diagram above or
2. do you guys just split the wires and join them or
3. do you use a crimp connector?

Soldering would be great but wouldn't it be troublesome when I want to dismantle the LC1 ? Besides I need an electrical source for to use the solder which I dun have (at the place where my car is parked).
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:08 AM   #13
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I still don't know what happened. I recognized that I was tired and pissed off enough that I was probably going to make it worse, so I'm waiting for tomorrow. Which is KILLING me.


Weird thing is it's been working just fine for weeks...
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savageblitz View Post
Soldering would be great but wouldn't it be troublesome when I want to dismantle the LC1 ? Besides I need an electrical source for to use the solder which I dun have (at the place where my car is parked).
Personally I solder every connection possible now. Back in the day I had a few connections come loose from bad crimp jobs, and they are a pain to find.

You shouldn't ever really need to dismantle the LC1 unless you want to get rid of it.

Besides, sometimes you can get careless and drop the soldering iron and burn your arm. Then you get cool scars.
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Old 03-06-2008, 01:38 AM   #15
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In addition, any analog instrument is going to be EXTREMELY sensitive to voltage offsets due to slight resistances in the terminations. Better to just solder it all together and be done with it.
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Old 03-07-2008, 02:24 PM   #16
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Personally I solder every connection possible now. Back in the day I had a few connections come loose from bad crimp jobs, and they are a pain to find.

Your solders are far less reliable than a quality crimp. Before you blame crimp connections for your failures, think about every single wire in your Subaru harness. Now think about the fact that every single wire terminates in a crimp connection. The failure rate for these crimps is around zero.

Keep the iron for PCB work and get a set of ratcheting crimpers.
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Old 03-07-2008, 03:41 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by LateApex31 View Post
Your solders are far less reliable than a quality crimp. Before you blame crimp connections for your failures, think about every single wire in your Subaru harness. Now think about the fact that every single wire terminates in a crimp connection. The failure rate for these crimps is around zero.

Keep the iron for PCB work and get a set of ratcheting crimpers.
You know, people like you keep repeating this fallacy and it's just not true. The truth is that both a bad crimp and a bad solder are going to be unreliable and that both a good crimp and a good solder are going to be reliable. It's cheaper and faster to crimp well, which is what really matters in manufacturing.

99% of failed solder joints in automotive applications fail because the person who made the joint allowed too much solder to wick up the wires forming a heavy and inflexible segment in the wire. The extra mass of the solder causes the wire to flex more in response to vibration. The rigid segment causes the flex to occur in the non-solder containing wire right next to the joint. The eventually fatigues that area of the wire and it breaks.

So the important thing is to use the minimum possible amount solder to create a reliable electrical connection. The mechanical part of the connection isn't the solder's job.

Crimping is just as easy to screw up if you don't have exactly the right tools or don't know exactly what you're doing.
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:30 PM   #18
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^^ +1 for soldiering.

Don't forget that proper heating of both wires and/or surface to be soldiered is VITAL. Overheating is to be avoided at all costs. When you do not properly heat the wires or surfaces, you get a cold soldier joint which is brittle, and will not last or conduct electricity as well as a properly soldiered joint. A properly soldiered connection should be shiny, and blend together smoothly with all surfaces.

Roughing up a flat metal surface, such as on a potentiometer, goes a long way towards a good soldier connection.

Also, the use of flux REALLY helps conduct heat, which will help you avoid overheating the wires while you are waiting for the soldier to melt and flow. Also, ensuring both wires/surfaces are clean is a must. Removing old soldier is also vital.

It sounds complicated, but there is only 3 or 4 steps to soldiering well. Just like painting, good prep will ensure you only do it once. Each time you resoldier something, it gets harder and harder to clean it up.

The advantages are clear when you are tapping wires coming from your ECU, or another equally vital component. Crimp connections are good, but they are still far more vulnerable to tension than a proper soldier joint.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:09 AM   #19
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has anyone used a LC-1 to go car to car for tuning? I was thinking of maybe wiring in a cigarette lighter plug for power and you do not really need anything else than a laptop to make it work. Am I missing anything. I was thinking about getting the LM-1 for mobile tuning, but I have seen where people are having a hard time getting it to work. To all the mobile tuners out there, I really appreciate your thoughts.
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by 2.5iSTI View Post
has anyone used a LC-1 to go car to car for tuning? I was thinking of maybe wiring in a cigarette lighter plug for power and you do not really need anything else than a laptop to make it work. Am I missing anything. I was thinking about getting the LM-1 for mobile tuning, but I have seen where people are having a hard time getting it to work. To all the mobile tuners out there, I really appreciate your thoughts.

I did, mine works great.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
It sounds complicated, but there is only 3 or 4 steps to soldiering well. Just like painting, good prep will ensure you only do it once. Each time you resoldier something, it gets harder and harder to clean it up.
Please dun flame me for asking but what are the 3 to 4 steps? I'm convinced on the positive aspects of soldering but this is probably the first time I will be doing any soldering. Any good tips other than just seeing the process as just melting a piece of metal to join two wires? (sorry to put it bluntly).

Any good URLs would also be appreciated.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2.5iSTI View Post
has anyone used a LC-1 to go car to car for tuning? I was thinking of maybe wiring in a cigarette lighter plug for power and you do not really need anything else than a laptop to make it work. Am I missing anything. I was thinking about getting the LM-1 for mobile tuning, but I have seen where people are having a hard time getting it to work. To all the mobile tuners out there, I really appreciate your thoughts.
FYI, Romraider does not support LM-1 (yet) Check out this link on how to use a cigarette lighter plug for powering LC-1:
http://www.m2motorsports.com/files/lc-1_write_up.pdf

Last edited by savageblitz; 03-10-2008 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savageblitz View Post
Please dun flame me for asking but what are the 3 to 4 steps? I'm convinced on the positive aspects of soldering but this is probably the first time I will be doing any soldering. Any good tips other than just seeing the process as just melting a piece of metal to join two wires? (sorry to put it bluntly).

Any good URLs would also be appreciated.
Well, first thing is to search YouTube. There's some decent videos there.

But...

1) Clean the stuff you're going to use
2) Make a solid mechanical connection between the things to be soldered
3) Use the iron to heat both halves of the joint directly
4) Touch the joint intermittently with the solder, when the solder melts almost instantly and is "sucked up" by the joint and runs into both sides, it's hot enough
5) Add the minimum possible amount of solder to fully wet the actual joint area without saturating the areas away from the joint
6) Let the joint cool

Once cool, the solder should have a shiny appearance (though not quite as shiny as when it was liquid) and the edges of the solder should sweep down smoothly into the joint. If the solder appears very dull, or the edges of the solder are steep like a drop of water on a freshly waxed car (or on a rain-xed window), proper heating did not occur and the joint will fail.
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Old 03-10-2008, 02:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
You know, people like you keep repeating this fallacy and it's just not true. The truth is that both a bad crimp and a bad solder are going to be unreliable and that both a good crimp and a good solder are going to be reliable. It's cheaper and faster to crimp well, which is what really matters in manufacturing.

99% of failed solder joints in automotive applications fail because the person who made the joint allowed too much solder to wick up the wires forming a heavy and inflexible segment in the wire. The extra mass of the solder causes the wire to flex more in response to vibration. The rigid segment causes the flex to occur in the non-solder containing wire right next to the joint. The eventually fatigues that area of the wire and it breaks.

So the important thing is to use the minimum possible amount solder to create a reliable electrical connection. The mechanical part of the connection isn't the solder's job.

Crimping is just as easy to screw up if you don't have exactly the right tools or don't know exactly what you're doing.
What does the aerospace industry use? What about motorsports? What about satellite and other space craft construction? Everything is crimped. OEM automobile manufacturers aren't the only ones who use crimp connections. A ratcheting crimp tool is under $100 and will crimp thousands and thousands of connections reliably, with less room for error than soldering.

There is no quantifiable way to describe the exact steps required to complete a 'good' solder joint. The type of wire, solder, flux used, etc will all affect the 'correct' amount of solder to put into a joint. Same goes for heat. There are just too many unknowns when soldering something, especially in the confines of an automobile foot well. The knowledge and skill comes with experience and making a lot of ****ty solders, maybe even taking an electronics class and developing your own technique.

A ratcheting crimp tool, on the other hand. You strip the wire, stick it into the uninsulated crimp, crimp it with the tool until it releases, slide shrink tube on, crimp the other side, shrink the shrink and it's done. The crimp is inspectable until you shrink the tube too.

I'm not saying that solders are not useable, but to say that they are just as reliable or harder to screw up than a crimp is a bit silly. Some instances require a solder, and that's OK.

As far as being succeptable to tension, that is simply incorrect. I can make a crimp connection then pull on the wire until it fails. The wire itself fails well before it pulls out of the crimp. It usually fails far away from the crimp point too (depending on the length of wire being subjected to tensile failure). Unless you are using wires to hang things on, then I don't even see this as a concern. Proper harnessing technique requires that there are strain relief points on the harness.

Last edited by LateApex31; 03-10-2008 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Content and grammar
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Old 03-10-2008, 02:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateApex31 View Post
There is no quantifiable way to describe the exact steps required to complete a 'good' solder joint. The type of wire, solder, flux used, etc will all affect the 'correct' amount of solder to put into a joint. Same goes for heat. There are just too many unknowns when soldering something, especially in the confines of an automobile foot well. The knowledge and skill comes with experience and making a lot of ****ty solders, maybe even taking an electronics class and developing your own technique.

A ratcheting crimp tool, on the other hand. You strip the wire, stick it into the uninsulated crimp, crimp it with the tool until it releases, slide shrink tube on, crimp the other side, shrink the shrink and it's done. The crimp is inspectable until you shrink the tube too.

I'm not saying that solders are not useable, but to say that they are just as reliable or harder to screw up than a crimp is a bit silly. Some instances require a solder, and that's OK.
You basically said the real reason yourself. It's much, much easier to teach someone to crimp than it is to teach someone to solder. That means you can get a less-trained, less-talented, and therefore less-well-paid person and sit them in a room making hundreds of crimps a day.

It's just cheaper. I guarantee you that if someone developed a process that made reliable soldering cheaper than reliable crimping, the industry would switch overnight.
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