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Old 03-09-2008, 05:00 PM   #26
RaceFaceXC
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k, thanks. Ill try the search on romraider again, i didnt log in the first time and the search wasnt in the forum.. duh! much better results this time.
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:05 PM   #27
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Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:39 PM   #28
RaceFaceXC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling

Thanks! I found some more data on the romraider forum and checked here before going to try again and viola! a step by step by Williaty! simply outstanding!
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:42 PM   #29
RaceFaceXC
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i didnt realize this tool was in the logger, thought it was just used on the rom image data, not while driving. makes total sense. k, im off to burn a tank of gas!
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:33 PM   #30
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nice man by doing this process and reduing the maf values will i throw anything else out of wack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:41 PM   #31
watchunglava
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also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now

Last edited by watchunglava; 03-09-2008 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
i didnt realize this tool was in the logger, thought it was just used on the rom image data, not while driving. makes total sense. k, im off to burn a tank of gas!
Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchunglava View Post
also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now
Did you read those tuning books front to back yet (as well as all of the tuning FAQ on here and ROMraider)? Do you understand what the MAF is and why you'd want to rescale it? The MAF is one sensor and rescaling it won't give you an 'all around awesome tune.' We can't 'learn you' unless you do a little homework first my friend. You don't upgrade to 93 octane, it may allow you to run more timing with a well maintained and properly tuned car as a result of decreased detonation tendencies. Seriously, you have to fully understand how your car works before you go reflashing the ROM. There are alot of really knowledgable (like Williaty ) and patient people on this forum that are willing to help provided you have a basic understanding of your ECU and tuning.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTracer View Post
Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.
I was @ +-4% in CL after manually rescaling, depending on outside temp's and such, before running the MAF tool and im not too sure what I'm @ now. Id like to get close to 1% ultimately. maybe thats not realistic, though. I don't think i got good data or something. Ill be doing a bunch more logging with the MAF scaling tool, though. Ill post my results here, ASAP.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:36 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchunglava View Post
nice man by doing this process and reduing the maf values will i throw anything else out of wack?
Re-scaling your MAF values will change the calculated load (in theory making it more accurate). This will change where you are on any load-referencing table (primarily timing and fueling). You may need to tweak the overall tune to reflect the new load points.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchunglava View Post
also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now
All MAF scaling does is to make the ECUs calculation of the amount of air entering the engine more accurate. It doesn't magically tune any other part of your car.

Before trying to tune for higher-octane fuel, you need to make sure you're not already tuned for it. For instance, my 05 came tuned for 93 even though it called for 87. It used the knock control strategy to handle the difference.

Also, you need to learn A LOT more before you adjust anything. If you go in with your current level of knowledge, you WILL blow your engine.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTracer View Post
Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.
The MAF tool is an iterative process. It's very possible that you'll have to run it many times to get it dialed in. Don't expect to only run it one or two times.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
I was @ +-4% in CL after manually rescaling, depending on outside temp's and such, before running the MAF tool and im not too sure what I'm @ now. Id like to get close to 1% ultimately. maybe thats not realistic, though. I don't think i got good data or something. Ill be doing a bunch more logging with the MAF scaling tool, though. Ill post my results here, ASAP.
Most of the guys seem to be shooting for <5% for AFL B and C with AFL D being as close to 0 as possible. Some people are recommending AFL A be ~-5% with AFL B also being slightly negative. In the event of an O2 sensor failure, this would cause the car to idle slightly rich, which is much better than idling lean. Supposedly it also eases the transition when you stomp it near idle too.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:52 PM   #38
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seriously no doubt i dont want to blow my engine!!!!!!!!!! i am learning and an admited noob when it comes to ecu tuning, and dont even realize what exactly is happening. i understand how an engine works and all , internal combustion turning a crank and all that , no i havent done all my homework yet . i will read and come back when im done most likely with plenty of questions. thanks guys
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:56 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Most of the guys seem to be shooting for <5% for AFL B and C with AFL D being as close to 0 as possible. Some people are recommending AFL A be ~-5% with AFL B also being slightly negative. In the event of an O2 sensor failure, this would cause the car to idle slightly rich, which is much better than idling lean. Supposedly it also eases the transition when you stomp it near idle too.
Yes, that makes good sense to error on the side of caution. I will probably get my AFL's as good as I can, and then adjust AFL A to be slightly rich, if it isn't already. thanks Williaty.

Any suggestions aboput where to get an WB O2 @? Im putting my HFC and headers and catback on in a couple days here and might wait to put a WB O2 @ the same time since it should require adding a bung.
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Old 03-09-2008, 10:59 PM   #40
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Get an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 from a local shop if they'll offer good pricing (mine did) or tunertools.com with the discount code "enginuity" if you can't find a good deal locally.

You're going to want to mount your exhaust once before you tell the shop where to weld your bung as some of the best looking locations turn out to be blocked by the tranny. Wherever you do mount it, make sure that you have room for the body of the sensor plus the stiff part of the cable without running into anything.
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchunglava View Post
seriously no doubt i dont want to blow my engine!!!!!!!!!! i am learning and an admited noob when it comes to ecu tuning, and dont even realize what exactly is happening. i understand how an engine works and all , internal combustion turning a crank and all that , no i havent done all my homework yet . i will read and come back when im done most likely with plenty of questions. thanks guys
Im in the same boat @ you for the most part, and i found that trying to learn everything @ once about your ECU and engine is impossible for me. Instead, i decided which "system" i want to learn about and go fourth learning about the ECU itself and how it controls the engine (what sensors give it data, what type of data [volts, ohms, hertz, etc], what the data means with respect to what its sensing [+volts @ MAF sensor mean more air being measured] and very importantly, how the data inputs from the sensors are deciphered by the ECU with respect to what package of engine parameters will be modified) i guess what im saying is i found it easy for the most part to concentrate on one "system" and learn it well, ask some ?'s on it, and then you should know it solidly. I started with the MAF system and the AFR's and how they relate to it.

hope i didnt just confuse you more.

www.romraider.com has a great forum for ECU tuning related issues and i have gotten good answers every time i posted a ?. much is turbo related stuff, but they seem cool about helping out whoever they can.
Engine management forum here is pretty good too.
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Get an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 from a local shop if they'll offer good pricing (mine did) or tunertools.com with the discount code "enginuity" if you can't find a good deal locally.

You're going to want to mount your exhaust once before you tell the shop where to weld your bung as some of the best looking locations turn out to be blocked by the tranny. Wherever you do mount it, make sure that you have room for the body of the sensor plus the stiff part of the cable without running into anything.
Yeah, i was going to mock fit it first so i knew where i had clearance, but ill be doing all the welding and hope to knock it out in one day. Thanks for the LC-1 info, ill check around.
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:11 PM   #43
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Race, Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish is the perfect book for what you just talked about.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:16 PM   #44
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Excuse my newbness. What are you guys expecting to gain from all this tuning on intake and exhaust mods on our NA's? A few HP? Making the engine run better? No offense, just seems like a lot of work.
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:29 PM   #45
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yes a few HP. And the knowledge of the ECU and how it controls the engine. Why would you want to pay $$$ for bolt on's and get only half the performance out of them compared to spending another $60 for a tactrix cable and getting the rest of the HP in addition to making the car run better, stronger, how you want it to, save a bit of gas and know more. a LOT more. No offense, just seems stupid and lazy to not tune after certain bolt on upgrades.

guess if you just want to spend the $ and have "mods" to have "mods" then thats cool too.
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:56 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvoSpeed View Post
Excuse my newbness. What are you guys expecting to gain from all this tuning on intake and exhaust mods on our NA's? A few HP? Making the engine run better? No offense, just seems like a lot of work.
The engine not exploding.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:11 PM   #47
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are you guys not worried about messing up the ecu? and if you tune the car with only cai and exhaust that is a waist of money. im sorry but i would never mess with my ecu when i have no training on tuning. if you had cams to then i could see why you would tune. then you run into needing alot more money to have them installed...and at the end of the day you have 30 to 35 hp for a crap load of money. if i had a few 1,000 to throw at my car..i think i would rather just save for a swap. dont get me wrong i would love 30 more hp..but i would then want more and realize that i could get more if i had a turbo motor

i talked to the guys from pacific import auto here in wa the owner worked for subaru for 30 years..him and his team know alot. i talked to them about both tuning and cams and they all told me that it would be a waist of money...alot of money for little power that you get. they also said open source is risky
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #48
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They said that open source is risky because they're greedy capitalists.

Self-tuning is only as risky as your ability to understand the material and follow the scientific method. If you're willing to take several months of constant studying of the base concepts and couple that will small, incremental changes and detailed record keeping, you can safely arrive at a much more drivable and potentially more powerful car.

In addition, you really need to tune for the intake on any MAF-based car. Not doing so is playing russian roulette with your engine and likely only isn't fatal to the engine due to the fact that the stock tune takes a trip to crazy rich town on the top end.

Furthermore, stay the hell out of the discussion until you learn something. For that matter, stay out until you learn English.
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batman 2.5i View Post
are you guys not worried about messing up the ecu? and if you tune the car with only cai and exhaust that is a waist of money. im sorry but i would never mess with my ecu when i have no training on tuning. if you had cams to then i could see why you would tune. then you run into needing alot more money to have them installed...and at the end of the day you have 30 to 35 hp for a crap load of money. if i had a few 1,000 to throw at my car..i think i would rather just save for a swap. dont get me wrong i would love 30 more hp..but i would then want more and realize that i could get more if i had a turbo motor

i talked to the guys from pacific import auto here in wa the owner worked for subaru for 30 years..him and his team know alot. i talked to them about both tuning and cams and they all told me that it would be a waist of money...alot of money for little power that you get. they also said open source is risky

dude stop it what the hell do you think we are talking about? we want to blow up are cars!!!!!!!! flames mother hos . havent you seen us on the news yo? we blow up are mutha f in cars for the f of it!!!!!!!! **** looks hot flames shooting up the windshield .

its not about the hp!!!!!!!! its about blowing up your car cause your engine likes to make boom boom in the combustion chamber!!!!!!

Fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:57 PM   #50
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i like how you attack me man. and my english for that matter. didnt know i was back in school, and i was being graded on these forums??lol i think i listen to these guys over you haha. i have never heard of anyone telling me i " have to get my car tuned or my cars not going to be reliable.." i have had my cai on for over 40,000 miles..no problems. ill ask the guys at pia..see what they say since they would know more about subaru engines than you do cuz thats all they work on. and to call them greedy is funny. there telling me not to do these things..if they were greedy then they would tell me " oh ya do well do it..and hey lets throw a turbo on there to" i have a right to state my view. just as you, so get off your high houses. even if i could have a pro tune my car i would rather save my money on so big hp and not waist it on hopes and dream...
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