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Old 03-18-2013, 10:49 PM   #1776
gdoggmoney
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Engine load compensation. My stock 2007 2.5i tune:

Suspiciously, same rpm and without logging and just a guess the same manifold pressures this happens at. Subaru's attempt to minimize the noise here.....



So adding that much to the already artificially high engine load due to the resonance being read twice? Table B seems saner, taking away a few percent in that general area I circled. Go go mspaint.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #1777
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That table is reading backwards to how you think it is. The area you've circled is actually when the throttle is nearly closed. Left side of the table is throttle closed, right side of the table is throttle fully open.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:50 AM   #1778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
That table is reading backwards to how you think it is. The area you've circled is actually when the throttle is nearly closed. Left side of the table is throttle closed, right side of the table is throttle fully open.
Well, if the resonance spike corresponds to the throttle position, that means it corresponds to MAP as well. Throttle and map are semi tied together for lack of a better term, aka If it is there at lower throttle, or more vacuum that sort of jives with what I circled. Since we know it is there at all throttle positions, that sort of jives with the half of the table you mention, where vacuum would turn into positive pressure were this a turbo car.

The engine load compensation vs throttle position and RPM are all 0'd out (forgive me if I gave a wrong table name, i'm at work with 0 access to romraider or anything until later tonight. I also lent a co-worker my tactrix cable so she can get Clark Turner tuned on her ej205 STi swap -- LOL that has been one hell of an interesting journey for her with that guy..... )

It appears load is artifically added in the half of the table you talk about as well, and if you look at table B, even though the axis is scaled differently for more RPM, it has a similar load increase there as well. 7.8% bump there..... And some load increase on the other half the map where WOT/positive pressure would start......

(started as a turbo guy, used to looking at maps that scale vacuum -> pressure)


PostScript: 10% jump at heavy load, and 800-1000RPM as well in table A! -3.9% in table B.......

Do we know what determines the switch from table A to B with engine load compensation vs MRP ? (according to the defs, this table is MRP not absolute MAP)

Last edited by gdoggmoney; 03-19-2013 at 11:53 AM. Reason: I am retarded, and can't type.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #1779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdoggmoney View Post
Well, if the resonance spike corresponds to the throttle position, that means it corresponds to MAP as well.
Yes, it does. Though the relationship between the spike and throttle plate angle is better than the relationship between the spike and MAP in PSIg (AKA MRP) due to the way the ECU is calculating PSIg.

Quote:
I also lent a co-worker my tactrix cable so she can get Clark Turner tuned on her ej205 STi swap -- LOL that has been one hell of an interesting journey for her with that guy..... )
God, that's not a choice I would have made. I'm shocked he's willing to tune with the open source tools as for years he was ranting on about how everyone will steal his secret sauce if he did anything other than a locked tune on an AccessPort.

Quote:
It appears load is artifically added in the half of the table you talk about as well, and if you look at table B, even though the axis is scaled differently for more RPM, it has a similar load increase there as well. 7.8% bump there..... And some load increase on the other half the map where WOT/positive pressure would start......
Remember that there is never positive pressure in a NA. So the right side of the table is still negative PSIg but does represent full throttle.

I would also caution you not to think of it as load being "artificially added". The values in the MRP vs RPM table are there because under some environmental conditions, there really will be that kind of error. So, I would be leaving those two tables alone because they could have critical duties during weird things like driving in a snowstorm at 13,000 feet or something.

I will say you have the right idea to lead you to the fix I found, you're just poking at tables I think are a little risky to dick with.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:39 AM   #1780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Yes, it does. Though the relationship between the spike and throttle plate angle is better than the relationship between the spike and MAP in PSIg (AKA MRP) due to the way the ECU is calculating PSIg.


God, that's not a choice I would have made. I'm shocked he's willing to tune with the open source tools as for years he was ranting on about how everyone will steal his secret sauce if he did anything other than a locked tune on an AccessPort.


Remember that there is never positive pressure in a NA. So the right side of the table is still negative PSIg but does represent full throttle.

I would also caution you not to think of it as load being "artificially added". The values in the MRP vs RPM table are there because under some environmental conditions, there really will be that kind of error. So, I would be leaving those two tables alone because they could have critical duties during weird things like driving in a snowstorm at 13,000 feet or something.

I will say you have the right idea to lead you to the fix I found, you're just poking at tables I think are a little risky to dick with.



Seems we are cut from a similar logical cloth. I am pretty much certain I know what to do now, I just need to get the stuff to remove the helmholtz chamber, and etc then start logging the values to correspond to the tables I want to edit, and get started making the adjustments.

I'm considering a 0 out of the MRP/load comp tables and perhaps do it all via throttle position or 0 out the mrp/load comp at ultra low loads and do it all via throttle position and leave the other end of the map the same....

Still sorting out all that in my head, the dependencies, possible complications and etc.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:51 PM   #1781
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Keep in mind that, even if you do everything right, the net result is not actually any good, it's just not a total disaster. The tables in play don't have enough cells to precisely tune out the spike while not screwing other **** up. I told a guy the other day that, due to the limited table, it's a bit like doing surgery with a hand grenade. You can prevent the car from bucking and stalling with a lot of careful work, but you can't actually make it run right and pull hard.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:01 PM   #1782
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That last comment is enlightening. I'd add it to the first post.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:16 PM   #1783
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The fact that it's tunable if you know how has been in the thread since 2009.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:18 PM   #1784
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The choice of words was just very concise.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:34 AM   #1785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Keep in mind that, even if you do everything right, the net result is not actually any good, it's just not a total disaster. The tables in play don't have enough cells to precisely tune out the spike while not screwing other **** up. I told a guy the other day that, due to the limited table, it's a bit like doing surgery with a hand grenade. You can prevent the car from bucking and stalling with a lot of careful work, but you can't actually make it run right and pull hard.
I wonder if rescaling the compensation table for voltages in the low range to gain that resolution/precision and RPM in the low range to grain resolution/precision down there would take it from hand grenade to maybe firecracker or m80?

There has to be a way within the stock ECU logic to make this work great. If not, I guess inevitably it will be stand alone and fortunately i am moving to a place with no emissions in the not too distant future.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:25 AM   #1786
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Running an injen cai in fender/fog light area. now with very smooth drivability after dumping the engine load compensation tables and 3 romraider maf scalings. I'm fixing an airboy spreadsheet to redo the engine load vs mrp tables and think I have an idea what I need to graph, plot and do.

I drove around watching fuel trims and its not any worse than stock, with much more power, drivability, handling (amazing what smooth predictable power can do in corners and turns!) and a fun factor a 2.5i never had.

Iat are damn near ambient.

Head work and cams next with a lot of timing.

I am going to do the low rpm throttle mash, and log maf voltage. Then again with all timing, and other stuff I don't see a need to mash it between 1-2k. So if it exists, it is easily driven around so far.

The car feels normal much like an old drive by cable with finesse and control it never had. This car has never run better, but to pay someone to do this would cost you am arm and a leg for the gains.

The stuff circled above I posted in my stock tables was masking a massive massive maf scaling bump in that region I suppose due to fuel trims affected by the load. 0'd tables did it and its damn near butter after the maf scalings.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:43 AM   #1787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdoggmoney View Post
with much more power
I promise you that if you put it on a dyno (I have), you didn't gain NEARLY as much power as you think you did. From the intake, fixing the fueling, and getting it out of CL, you gained maybe 5hp and 10lbf-ft at most. What you did gain is hugely improved access to the power, and that's what the real transformation is.

Quote:
handling (amazing what smooth predictable power can do in corners and turns!) and a fun factor a 2.5i never had.
Yup, that's coming from the DBW remap plus getting rid of the CL/OL Transition Delay. It's quite wonderful!


Quote:
I am going to do the low rpm throttle mash, and log maf voltage.
The MAFv will always blow up in that region because, after all, it's just showing what's physically going on, and you can't change the physics. What you should see happen is that the calculated Engine Load (g/rev) doesn't blow up at the same time MAFv does anymore.

Quote:
The stuff circled above I posted in my stock tables was masking a massive massive maf scaling bump in that region I suppose due to fuel trims affected by the load. 0'd tables did it and its damn near butter after the maf scalings.
You don't quite have the cause and effect right there. Also, if you fully zeroed the compensation tables, you're going to have serious problems the moment the weather changes or you drive up a hill.




Quote:
This car has never run better, but to pay someone to do this would cost you am arm and a leg for the gains.
And that is the most important take away. You can get a decent, off-the-shelf tune that will get 100% of the "wake up"/responsiveness benefits you're talking about for pretty cheap money. Can't use a CAI/SRI with it though. To be able to run a CAI/SRI, it requires custom tuning for your specific car with your specific intake and it takes enough hours to do it that I add about $600 to the cost of the tune (because it costs me that time to rent the dyno) when someone insists they have to have it.

So you gotta ask yourself "is it worth $600 to be able to run a CAI/SRI and gain 5hp?". If you're doing it for yourself, the question becomes do you want to spend that many hours on it for 5hp.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:40 AM   #1788
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Here is what I did on Sunday. Going to have it tuned, or see about meeting up with Turn in Concepts. Williaty, are you going to be anywhere near the St. Louis area, anytime soon? If not i may make a trip if that would be possible.




Last edited by SkeetZ18; 04-29-2013 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Picture link fix.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:00 AM   #1789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkeetZ18 View Post
Here is what I did on Sunday. Going to have it tuned, or see about meeting up with Turn in Concepts. Williaty, are you going to be attending Scoobapalooza in St. Louis? I saw that Turn In was going to be a sponsor.



For some reason your images aren't showing up.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:25 AM   #1790
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Hmm, I can see it on my computer in the thread. Anyone else having issues viewing the pictures?

Here is the link to my car in the STL forums.
http://stlsubaru.com/forums/album.ph...achmentid=2637
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:44 AM   #1791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkeetZ18 View Post
Hmm, I can see it on my computer in the thread. Anyone else having issues viewing the pictures?

Here is the link to my car in the STL forums.
http://stlsubaru.com/forums/album.ph...achmentid=2637
I think it is because you linked to a separate forum that requires a login to view the images. That's my problem with it at least
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:52 AM   #1792
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Got it, should be able to see it now.

Last edited by SkeetZ18; 04-29-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:07 PM   #1793
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Yep working now. Looks good!
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:29 PM   #1794
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Williaty, could you please answer a question for me? I ran the oil return line to the front of the intake arm near the air box connection. Should I run that to the bend where the white clip is, and send the breather line where that one is currently connected? Or leave it and I should be fine the way it is ran currently?

Thank you in advance,

-Drew
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:41 PM   #1795
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:13 PM   #1796
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There are 2 breather lines, and from what it looks like, is an oil return line that is attached to the sensor with the white clip. All 3 of these were attached to my throttle body mount. So the 2 breather lines are connected as seen above in the pictures I posted. The third hose with the white sensor is connected to the intake tube on the bottom side, by where the silicone coupler connects to the air box. My question is, is it set up correctly or should I switch the left side breather with the hose coming from the white clip?
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:15 PM   #1797
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Next time I have an 08 in the shop, I'll take a look at it and see what should be done with the lines.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:21 PM   #1798
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Okay, thank you. It seems to be running fine, and I should be able to log hopefully this week(if my friend gets free time). So, I can actually see what is going on. Everything is fitted correctly and sealed properly. This is just the only part I am unsure about, and it seems you would be the most reliable answer at this point.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:06 PM   #1799
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Great write up - im sure that this applies to most cars with an AFM
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:42 PM   #1800
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