Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday September 2, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-16-2008, 03:26 AM   #1
AZScoobie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8785
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
02 c_turner@ix.
netcom.com

Default FP HTA Green tested.

I tuned the HTA FP green over the weekend. There is another thread about it on nasioc. I just got back from LA about an hour ago and just decided to make my own thread about it.

This turbo should not be called a green. It performs very close to the FP red. It comes on late but makes killer top end power. FP did a great job on this turbo but should market this as a larger turbo then the green really is.

This turbo comes on late. No amount of cam tuning, AFR or timing adjustment will over come this big compressor wheel. Once the turbo does come on boost it makes killer power. This car made 440 to 460whp easily. Considering this was a stock motor and not mine I did not push it to the max. When I did try more boost the clutch slipped on the dyno. This turbo was happy to make 450 REAL hp on the mustang dyno with Meth spraying. Its happy to make 380 to 400whp with no meth. The only thing we need is CAMS and headwork. You can see the engine shut off past the power peak. I spent 20 minutes trying to get that redline power up higher and it would not. Its obviously a flow restriction somewhere as its choked. I can see the airflow stop at that point in the logs. No airflow, no more power. I feel this turbo would make more power under 6000 rpm at a higher boost ON this CAR but no real big gains in peak power. THis was a stock 07 engine with bolt on parts.

All in all, a great turbo but it has major lag. 35R type lag on this car. It made 30R type power. So I would rather have a rotated kit myself. However, if you want a bolt on turbo that will make 460whp this will do it. I am sure it will make 500+ on a built motor with C16.

It has a place in the market as a normal green will not make over 400whp on this dyno. THe last three I tuned on this dyno made 355 to 380whp. 70 to 80whp over the standard green is what you guys are going to see this turbo make at the expense of a huge deficit of power under the curve. If you have a built motor and cams this would be an easy 500+whp bolt on turbo.

Here is one of the pulls. Not the highest but where I left the car for day to day use.

Clark

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AZScoobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 03:51 AM   #2
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZScoobie View Post
It has a place in the market as a normal green will not make over 400whp on this dyno.
i disagree. my car woulda made ~420whp if it wasnt leaking, on a tmic at that.

hind sights 20/20 but the continued decrease in power shoulda been a sign my car was leaking, although i can see how it can interpretted as heat soak.



heres the hta vs old green. hta is higher hp, OG is higher tq. then the hta plateaus ~390tq. the OG plot is a bit misleading though cause i had a leak on the turbo to intercooler hose.


Last edited by Phatron; 03-16-2008 at 01:26 PM.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 03:53 AM   #3
SLOJOE
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 163290
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: LEANDER
Vehicle:
04 STI
PSM DOM 3XT-R

Default

nice... what do you think the hta 35r will do on 93oct. pump?
SLOJOE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 03:56 AM   #4
AZScoobie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8785
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
02 c_turner@ix.
netcom.com

Default

Yeah but you dont know if was leaking when I tuned it man. It held 25 psi to 6000 rpm where it faded a bit to redline. When I added 5% duty the boost when up from the 23 it was showing.

C
AZScoobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 04:05 AM   #5
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

in hind sight its noticeable. when it was happening i thought it was just due to the different dyno. but on my plots from dynamic the car was hitting peak power at 5300rpm. my car didnt hit peak power on the other two dynos until 6500rpm.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 04:45 AM   #6
AZScoobie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8785
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
02 c_turner@ix.
netcom.com

Default

If thats the case it really sucks man. I wish there was some way of knowing that there was a leak. Still. Its a tough choice to get a normal green vs an HTA. I like top end and dont like blowing axels and clutches so I would get the HTA. But there is no doubt that the Normal green will beat the HTA on pump gas. The HTA has way to much lag to compete with the broad power band you had.

C
AZScoobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 08:11 AM   #7
MattPersman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139385
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Indiana
Default

maybe they need to change it to the FP Blue or the Yellow or something like that

thanks for your notes Clark
MattPersman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 09:14 AM   #8
DuckStu
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124060
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bloomfield Michigan
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STI
Silver

Default

Clark. Do you have a graph of the car without meth?

Curious to compare it to my recently TB tuned 20-G car, and see how much and where the meth adds hp.
DuckStu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 09:49 AM   #9
wrex03
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 29963
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: chicago
Vehicle:
04 sti
silver

Default

I still don't see the lag..... I have never seen a Rotated 35 have over 200 lbs of torque by 3K RPM.


edit:
I just looked over my green dyno (2.4 inlet 7 hot that I tuned myself with a utec topmount and catless tbe ) back in 2005 and I was getting 200lbs torque at around 2600 rpm. This was on a dyno jet.

And on my crappy SBR GT30 that Jorge tuned with same mods minus tbe on a dnyapack I didn't hit 200 till around 3.2K.
wrex03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 10:02 AM   #10
Zornorph
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17332
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: The neighbor's yard
Vehicle:
2004 Black STI
Not stock anymore

Default

This test flies in the face of all the hype I've heard and read about this - everyone was/is talking 500 rpm sooner spoolup, not later and laggier. Interesting.
Zornorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 01:22 PM   #11
Teh Legacy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 9853
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Never miss an opportunity
Vehicle:
to keep your mouth
shut.

Default

Still waiting on dyno results / comparison between the 35R and 3582HTA.
Teh Legacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 01:25 PM   #12
CatfaceType-R
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 81102
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: I sell platinum cat jewelry.co
Default

yah i'm kind of surprised at the not so good spool up...as for mr. clark's findings I am going to stick with the original green...having phatron type spool is amazing and like clark said wayy more useable around town

thank's for the write up
CatfaceType-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 01:34 PM   #13
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

^^^ added plot to 2nd post of HTA vs Old Green (OG). I am officially branding it as the Old Green, Original Green, Original Gangsta (OG)

i'll put this here too. its in the other thread but that one is way too long. just to show that my power was dropping like a rock (IE leaking). on the old plot i dont hit peak power till 6500 rpm, it was 5300 rpm at dynamic.





Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #14
CatfaceType-R
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 81102
Join Date: Feb 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: I sell platinum cat jewelry.co
Default

sick man, good job...do you have to get it retuned after you acess the leak/issue? Sounds pretty weird, maybe your wg spring? something boost control related?
CatfaceType-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:04 PM   #15
Junior2JZ
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 64908
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Tuning 8/9sec Subies @ P&L
Vehicle:
10.8 XT+10.0@143 GR+
2x9.0@170mph GTRs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zornorph View Post
This test flies in the face of all the hype I've heard and read about this - everyone was/is talking 500 rpm sooner spoolup, not later and laggier. Interesting.
You also have to factor in that this is the 3" inlet. The smalled 2.4 does not lag this bad.

Nice job on the tune clark

Junior
Junior2JZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:09 PM   #16
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
sick man, good job...do you have to get it retuned after you acess the leak/issue? Sounds pretty weird, maybe your wg spring? something boost control related?
go read the other thread.....my car went kablooey. i drove directly to mavrik motorsports from Dynamic to redyno against my baseline at mavrik and my car only hit 20psi so we looked for a leak and found it to be the turbo to intercooler hose. Fixed the hose and the car then went to 28psi and 13:1 AFR.......its an intereseting feeling sitting in the backseat of your car on the dyno and seeing oil spray all over the windshield

It was leaking when clark was tuning it, which we didnt realize. so he was increasing the wgdc to hit target boost and leaning the car out to hit target afr. so with the leak fixed the wgdc was too high and the afr too lean.....

Last edited by Phatron; 03-16-2008 at 02:15 PM.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:15 PM   #17
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zornorph View Post
This test flies in the face of all the hype I've heard and read about this - everyone was/is talking 500 rpm sooner spoolup, not later and laggier. Interesting.
Yeah, this is why performance claims for not-yet-released products are called "hype."

I'm really looking forward to FP's response to all of this. How did FP's own testing get such different results? What was different between this comparison and FP's own testing? It's just inconceivable that FP would make the claims they made (such as here, here, and here), while knowing that the HTA would perform like it did in this case.

Last edited by NSFW; 03-16-2008 at 07:25 PM.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:18 PM   #18
di2co
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 105648
Join Date: Jan 2006
Vehicle:
2006 STI
wrb

Default

Ron that wasn't oil. It was magic smoke
di2co is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 02:31 PM   #19
flycaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60142
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
...so with the leak fixed the wgdc was too high and the afr too lean.....
Any time you find and fix a boost leak, you should start from scratch and rebuild the boost map WGDC's. This is pretty basic stuff: start low, and work your way up, be conservative. I'm really surprised your tuner didn't think of this. The fact that you didn't put 2 and 2 together is understandable, but that's his job.

Last edited by flycaster; 03-16-2008 at 02:41 PM.
flycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 03:14 PM   #20
Paul
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 56203
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: south nj
Vehicle:
00 RSTI Coupe
Twin Scroll 2.5XTR EJ207

Default

^I think he was just getting dynoed and not getting tuned. Either way you would think someone would have said something.......but, we all do make mistakes.
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 03:58 PM   #21
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Theres no point in pointing fingers....

1) it goes back to me. I took the car to clark with a leak.
then...
2) clark tuned around the leak by increasing the wgdc and leaning it out. Im assuming that clark assumed it was heatsoak due to my TMIC
then...
3) when the car was on the dyno at mavrik we didnt stop and immediately retune because clark said the car was holding 25psi at Dynamic. we assumed the leak started after clarks tune. And paul is right, i wasnt doing any tuning at Mavrik so we really didnt think about retuning since it was just tuned 10 minutes before. I literally got off the dyno at Dynamic and drove 10 minutes to Mavrik right onto the dyno.

hindsight is 20/20. Looking back the evidence of a leak was there on the first pull at Dynamic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
The fact that you didn't put 2 and 2 together is understandable, but that's his job.
I understand your point, but Jon was in dyno operator mode, not tuner mode. The car had just been tuned. You could say the same thing about clark, he tuned around the leak. Ultimately im the one that didnt re-check and re-tighten everything.
I could stay stagnate and play the blame game, but that wont get anyone anywhere. I am more interested in getting my car running again.

Jon went out of his way to get my car stored in a safe place, drove me around to several different hotels since i had to spend the night, then the next day he drove me to Yimi in Santa Clarita since its closer to my house, and he is already sourcing parts for me.

Last edited by Phatron; 03-16-2008 at 04:07 PM.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 04:55 PM   #22
flycaster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60142
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bend, OR
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
...I literally got off the dyno at Dynamic and drove 10 minutes to Mavrik right onto the dyno...
With a boost leak repair in between. Live and learn.

FWIW, I've seen similar stupid stuff happen with another very well known tuner, right in front of my eyes. The last time I was tuned, one of the "gurus" accused me of modifying his map (leaning it out) and right as he was going to WOT I immediately gave him the cut sign and then chewed him royally. You see, I live at high altitude and my ECU had leaned those fuel trims, and I likewise had adjusted the WCDC's to compensate for the thinner air, on a warm day to boot. OTOH, the "guru" was tuning at sea-level, on a frigging cold day...and he never even once considered the implications of that. He knows where I live too, and I had even warned him to be careful...as in, DUH. But, he was in a hurry, got distracted, and got careless.

If I hadn't jumped in and stopped him, I would've had an initial boost spike of at least 4-5 psi over target, on a lean map. Can you say, "boom?" And you know what? He, not me, would have rebuilt that motor - I guarandamntee you. I told him, and he just spaced it out.

I understand where you're coming from, amigo, I really do - next time I have a hunch you'll be thinking of the "big picture", even if your tuner fails to. At the type of power levels we work at, we'd better.

Last edited by flycaster; 03-16-2008 at 05:04 PM.
flycaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 05:27 PM   #23
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

it was definately a learning experience
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 05:31 PM   #24
DoctorNick
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 7022
Join Date: May 2001
Vehicle:
heh, Debbie Parker
is my ride

Default

So are we sure that the car Clark just tuned the HTA on was healthy?

This is def why I appreciate shops, like P&L MotorSports, whom take the time to pressure check for leaks before it goes on the dyno. Nothing like having a tuner overcompensate the tune on the dyno because of a lose 30cent clamp.
DoctorNick is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2008, 05:49 PM   #25
AZScoobie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 8785
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Vehicle:
02 c_turner@ix.
netcom.com

Default

If there was a boost leak when I tuned the car I had no indication. The fuel trims where 0 and the turbo spooled up fast. I added waste gate duty and I saw a higher boost level. I am realy sorry that you lost an engine. I ran the car through the gears and it ran 24 to 25 psi when it was in my hands. It was already tuned to the max by Jon before I tuned it. The car made avg FP green power when it was tuned by me. I am very sorry you lost a motor man.

Clark
AZScoobie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: (WI) FP hta green MX3ze@7psi Engine/Power/Exhaust 6 06-17-2010 03:09 PM
FP HTA Green 362WHP/360WTQ deadscooby Proven Power Bragging 40 02-05-2010 09:06 PM
FS: PA - FP HTA Green - 3" Inlet 8cm Hotside w/ Extras Mycues1982 Engine/Power/Exhaust 7 11-17-2009 10:05 AM
FS: Feeler: PA , FP HTA Green 3" Anti-Surge 8cm^2 EWG Turbo < 500 miles Merp Engine/Power/Exhaust 26 05-13-2009 07:51 PM
FS: PA - FP HTA Green 3" inlet Mycues1982 Engine/Power/Exhaust 32 09-24-2008 03:41 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.