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Old 04-16-2008, 02:46 PM   #26
blkscooby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulwnkl View Post

Amsoil is tough to outguess in terms of their metallic additive levels based on their recommended applications. Since they don't seek API approval, they don't have to use the newer-technology additives that are replacing organo-metallics. Thus, either, both, or neither of the oils in question may have high levels of the old-tech metallic adds like zinc and phos, or they may instead use the newer, higher-tech adds you can't see in a UOA. You just don't know unless you buy them and analyze them.
Most Amsoil products do have reduced anti-wear additives phosphorus and zinc and do meet API service specs. However, they also have 2 oils with increased zinc and phosphorus. These are the AMO and ARO 10W-40 and 20W-50 oils. They are marketed towards high performance older pushrod motors or high mileage motors. The 10W-40 might be a good choice for a large turbo upgrade or built motor for extra wear protection.

(I know because I am an Amsoil dealer and I have all the literature!)
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:15 PM   #27
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Yes, I know what they look like at any given time. For example, very large amounts of Boron and Calcium are used in ASL and ATM. But that's not the point. The point is one really can't outguess them since they don't seek approval. We'll not go into the fact that they can't claim to meet the service specs since they're not subjected to them.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:26 AM   #28
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Who cares about API certifcation anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulwnkl View Post
The point I was trying to make is that all else equal, meaning equal protection, etc. in all respects, it would be silly to pass up the benefits of the extra friction modification.
Ding, ding, ding. That's the $60,000 question. Will you have equal protection?
I'm actually trying to decide between the Amsoil diesel 5W40, and the SSO 0W30. An Amsoil dealer actually advised me to go with the diesel 5W40 when I told him my driving conditions. But quicker turbo spool and better fuel economy would be nice. SSO is also loaded with calcium and has API/ILSAC levels of zinc/phosphorous.

-Dennis
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:19 PM   #29
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That's the $60,000 question. Will you have equal protection?
Won't know 'til you try. I don't see any special reason to think you wouldn't get equal protection though, do you?
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:53 PM   #30
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Diesel 5W40 vs. SSO 0W30 = more zinc/phos., higher HTHS (4.2 vs 3.2) and higher vis at 100C (15.3 vs. 10.3). All those equal more protection in my mind.

Having said that, I did have a touch less wear when I ran Motul 8100 5W30 winter before last.
I want the lead to go the other way!

GC, Motul, GC
Iron 12 11 12
Copper 7 6 8
Lead 5 2 3

I would send this to Dyson, but I don't want to pay him $50 for him to tell me to run the same oil that you would tell me to run for free.

-Dennis
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
...in my mind.
Well, we all have stuff in our mind. Sadly, those things very frequently don't correspond with what's going on in the engines.

Lots and lots of folks focus on ZDDP, but the common talk makes it seem that folks think only ZDDP can protect. I often wonder whether folks just don't realize that a UOA/VOA can only see a very limited range of things? Lack of ZDDP doesn't equate to lack of anti-wear or anti-oxidant ingredients.

The HTHS, viscosity, and TBN are interesting, too, because the attitudes conveyed often strike me as 'more is better.' If only that were true, it'd be easy to choose a motor oil: #3 grease.

Did you ever find that paper on BITOG that showed how a 5W20 yields higher film thickness than a 15W40 during peak shear (rings)? It's sure an interesting read.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:38 AM   #32
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#3 grease. You're a comedian.

No, I never bothered looking for that article. The search function there now makes my head hurt.

I think this less zinc thing is bad started from the flat-tappet crowd. Lots of articles were written by mechanics and experts saying that contributed to engine failure. Hmm, we go to SM/GF-4 and then 2.0's start blowing up? Coincidence? That's my conspiracy theory. I know there are probably a lot of factors that come to play in a lot of those cases (mods, tune, fuel, det, oil neglect, driving, etc.).

Here's an interesting article that was written back when we went to GF-3. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=518
Of course, oil technology is always changing and info can be outdated quickly. Six years ago, who would have thought one of the thickest, most shear stable off-the-shelf xw30's would be a 0W30?

Redline is increasing their zinc and phos. Bitog link here .

Looking at the price of premium gas this morning, the 0W30 is looking better and better.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 04-18-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:34 PM   #33
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Yes, I remember the search function being painful quite some time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Here's an interesting article that was written back when we went to GF-3. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=518
I remember reading that article some time back. Ever notice how the whole article is written to set up doubts about the new stuff, but puts up absolutely nothing of substance to support its assertions? One of the basic, unwritten assumptions of the article is that ZDDP is the only anti-wear agent there is; a complete load of garbage.

The actual scientific study of film thickness in the paper lost somewhere at BITOG argues against the whole assertion this article above tries to make. The article above never mentions any actual wear studies (which, believe it or not, the factories and oil companies conduct) nor anything else. It just tries to scare people with the unknown and leaves out all the hard data that refutes its claims. Kind of like when whale oil was being eliminated as a fuel. Folks like Blaine Ballentine (author of the article above) were hollering about how the end of the world was at hand. They were obviously wrong. Why would it be different this time?

Last edited by bulwnkl; 04-19-2008 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
I would send this to Dyson, but I don't want to pay him $50 for him to tell me to run the same oil that you would tell me to run for free.

-Dennis
BTW, Dyson has frequently told me that Chevron Supreme would be a great alternative to whatever I was using at the time in 2 or 3 different applications I've had. He's also caught intake tract issues for me, ignition issues, and prevented an ugliness with a shop over a seized engine.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:19 PM   #35
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I found a VOA on Amsoil 0W30 .
High calcium, zinc and phosphorous levels. The z and p are low enough for SM (like blkscooby said) but too high for GF-4 Energy Conserving requirements. Yay! Here's some info on Amsoil 5W30 and 10W30.

bulwnkl - Does this thread have the study you've been mentioning?

Here's an old thread that was recently dug up with some good links recently added.

Man, I am obsessing on this.
Oh, I asked Dr. Haas if any of his cars have turbos.
Quote:
Only the Maybach 75s and the Bentley GTC. The OEM Bentley and Maybach oils are both 30 grade. 40 grade oils are spec'ed. I have not changed the Bentley oil yet but the Maybach, including the previous plain 57, all run - ran with Red Line 5W20. The UOA so far have been excellent.

Both cars will get 0W20 RLI at some point.


-Dennis
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:09 PM   #36
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bulwnkl - Does this thread have the study you've been mentioning?
Many things are blocked from here, so I cannot see what must be in the thread (people are referring to stuff that's not there for me). However, I believe from limited context that the thread does contain a reference to an article I've been talking about. However, the whole paper (or most all of it) was once available. I believe from the context of what I can see from here that only perhaps a graph or so are visible in that thread?

Still, one of my favorite older quotes from that board is from Molakule:
"Just remember people, thicker doesn't mean better."
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bulwnkl View Post
Still, one of my favorite older quotes from that board is from Molakule:
"Just remember people, thicker doesn't mean better."
Hmm, I guess that must have been a different day than when he advised me to use a 5W40 since M1 5W30 was noisy for me back in 2004!

"If Sube allows a 40 weight, I would run something like Mobil 1 Truck and SUV, or Redline's 5W40."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1&Number=95816

That was my first and last run on M1 5W30.

-Dennis
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:05 PM   #38
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His quote I pasted is newer than the post you mention, so that means I win, right?

One might suppose that, given all which is now more widely disseminated, even if not as widely accepted, he was simply trying to steer you to a higher-quality product than plain ole M1? I notice that he specifically mentions friction modification in the two fluid alternatives (something not necessarily found in the diesel-spec products folks often recommend). Or, he was just trying to provide a recommendation to an individual with a very specific problem? Something with a different formulation concept than M1? Is he on the board more now than he was a couple years ago?

As an aside, I've experienced the identical thing you did in that thread in my '91 XT-6. It happened a time or two to me. Not in extreme heat, but rather in the winter (not a very cold winter climate like we have where I live now). It sounded really, really bad but only for a few or maybe several seconds. Don't know if it was just a funny filter ADBV or what.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:13 PM   #39
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Yeah, I was actually thinking that was his recommendation at the time. Oils have made a lot of progress in four years (except for M1 5W30 ). Who would have thought a doctor in FL would be running 0W20/0W30 vegetable oil in a Ferarri, Lambo, Maybach and Bentley.

Molakule is a little more active again than he was a couple of years ago (when he stopped making gear lube and moved to a new state).

-Dennis
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:39 PM   #40
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Yes, there were other troubles that kept him away as well. Same reasons he moved (which caused him to quit formulating/manufacturing).
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Hmm, I guess that must have been a different day than when he advised me to use a 5W40 since M1 5W30 was noisy for me back in 2004!

"If Sube allows a 40 weight, I would run something like Mobil 1 Truck and SUV, or Redline's 5W40."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1&Number=95816

That was my first and last run on M1 5W30.

-Dennis
MolaKule is an oil chemist...for the rest of the non-BITOGers.
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Old 04-24-2008, 05:07 PM   #42
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I've used Amsoil ASL 5w30 for the last 80k-90k miles (currently at 130k miles). My car is a daily driver though with the occasional road trip or road rally. It's been good to me so far (i used Castrol GTX for the first 10k, then Castrol Syntec before switching to Amsoil, all 5w30).

OEM filters always (preferably the small black ones).
I use the OEM filters and I have never got a black one, there always white.

Yes/No-Is the regular Amsoil 5w-30 a good oil to use???
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Old 04-25-2008, 12:02 AM   #43
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your question is vague, so the vague answer is yes.
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Old 04-25-2008, 08:57 AM   #44
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your question is vague, so the vague answer is yes.
How is it vague Everyone is talking about the diesel Amsoil, and I was asking about the reg oil
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:16 AM   #45
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It's not vague. The plain 5w30 is great stuff too.
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Old 04-25-2008, 09:50 AM   #46
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Here's a uoa on the regular Amsoil (at a short interval).
Just skip the XL line, IMO, because it's made from Group III base stocks. The regular 10W30 is probably a better choice from what I've read on bitog.

-Dennis
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by shamrock 05 View Post
I use the OEM filters and I have never got a black one, there always white.

Yes/No-Is the regular Amsoil 5w-30 a good oil to use???
Yes the ASL 5w30 is a good oil, however, the SSO 0w30 would be a better choice.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:01 AM   #48
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Well, I put in my order for the Amsoil SSO 0W30 on Sunday.

If my wear goes up with the thinner oil (over GC), I'm blaming bulwnkl. I nearly pulled the trigger on the diesel 5W40, but changed my mind since it's probably not needed in a stock FXT. The ATM 10W30 looks good (and cheaper), but I want some ester base stocks.

-Dennis
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:48 PM   #49
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When I installed it (SSO) in my wife's 04 Impreza RS, I noticed right away that the engine ran smoother, quieter, and even the temp gauge is a little lower vs the TSO that was in it. Now in the 06 WRX, the SSO has seemed to quiet down the engine noise and feels a tab bit smoother, however, the temp gauge is unchanged, which I didn't think it would make that much of a difference in temp because of it being a turbo charged engine. I must say that I am impressed with the SSO compared to the TSO.

On a side note I did an oil change on my 95 Dakota (180,885 miles) with Shell's Rotella 5w40 just because it was cheaper than Amsoil's 10w30 and I was at Wally World any so I thought I would give it a try. What is surprising is that the oil pressure guage was not as high as it was with Amsoil's 10w30, however, the truck is running quiter....The truck is only driven on about 1,000 mi/year now. The next oil change will be with Amsoil's DEO 5w40 just to compare.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:09 PM   #50
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OMGHi2U

^littletank on bitog?

-Dennis
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