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Old 04-22-2008, 04:56 PM   #1
Tuning @ FLI
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Default FLI 04 STI Stage 2 Meth vs. No Meth Tune

This customers car is a 2004 STI with a basic APS 3 inch turbo back exhaust with a cat, Aquamist HFS-5 Methanol/H20 kit and an FLI custom Protune with 91 Octane fuel. Both have max boost of 17 psi.

All IAT measurements were from an infrared gun on the intake manifold, not the factory IAT sensor (mounted with the MAF sensor)



Baseline Info: Stage 2 (APS catted 3 inch turbo back and FLI Protune)

Dyno Room Temp was 85 degrees with 40% Humidity

268 Hp and 287 Tq to the wheels

__________________________________________________ _______________

Test Info: Stage 2 (APS catted 3 inch turbo back, Aquamist HFS-5 Methanol/H20 kit and FLI Protune)

Dyno Room Temp was 65 degrees with 50% Humidity

287 Hp and 331 Tq to the wheels



__________________________________________________ _________

Here's an Intake Air Temp and Dyno Room Temp test with the same car (using the Methanol/H20 map). As you can see, with the IAT's 45 degrees different and a hotter room with less humidity, the power remains roughly the same.


Baseline Info: Stage 2 (APS catted 3 inch turbo back and FLI Protune)

Dyno Room Temp was 65 degrees with 50% Humidity and IAT was 65 degrees

279 Hp and 336 Tq to the wheels

__________________________________________________ _______________

Test Info: Stage 2 (APS catted 3 inch turbo back, Aquamist HFS-5 Methanol/H20 kit and FLI Protune)

Dyno Room Temp was 69 degrees with 42% Humidity and IAT was 100 degrees

287 Hp and 331 Tq to the wheels





Miles Hechtman
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Last edited by Tuning @ FLI; 04-22-2008 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:17 PM   #2
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Why not UP the boost when adding meth?
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:37 PM   #3
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Maybe they're satisfied with the power level, but want more reliability and longevity.

Plus its a good direct comparison of the effects of meth only.
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Old 04-22-2008, 05:38 PM   #4
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We were not trying to push this car for maximum power output at this time. The factory turbo needs to last for at least 1 more year before he upgrades to a bigger one. At that time we will remove the cat, and ramp boost up a bit more.

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Old 04-22-2008, 10:23 PM   #5
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Was the customer only looking to use the meth only for added safety? To me getting exactly the same power out of a meth tune with a $900 meth system seems like kind of a waste. There is really no good reason not to up the boost significantly when the meth is spraying.

BTW, measuring the temp of the intake manifold is not measuring IAT. The manifold heat soaks with the heat of the motor. The air inside is moving so quickly that it does not pick up much heat. A thermocouple after the TMIC is about the only way to accurately measure the temp of the air actually going in to the motor.

Probably the best indication that the infrared gun is not at all accurate is that the temp reading you got with the meth spraying was HIGHER. With the latent heat of evaporation of the meth/water mix the actual IAT after the nozzle will be much lower, possibly lower than ambient.

Last edited by socalLGT; 04-22-2008 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:32 PM   #6
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wow thanks for the good information... I guess its nice to see that meth does infact do its job, but here it seems kind of pointless not to turn up the juice a bit and easily get 300 whp SAFELY. I as well think it seems like a bit of a waste NOT to tune the car a little more since the meth gives you that margin of safety... either way thank you for the write up but if I were that customer I would be quite unpleased...
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:41 AM   #7
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Interesting power curves... stage 2 STI's generally don't have peak hp at redline and instead start to flatten the horsepower curve around 5500RPM. Are you trying to artificially flatten the torque curve so that power never flattens out? This is a strategy used by some factory turbo tunes to make the powerband feel more like an NA car. While this will make the car feel fast as it continues to pull harder all the way to redline, you are actually foregoing a lot of useable power under the curve. I suppose it really depends on what the customer's goals are, but ultimately the car could safely have significantly more torque and power through most of the powerband.

I'll give it up for taking a different approach, though. The car probably feels very linear and rev happy.

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:18 PM   #8
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Hello,

I made a mistake on the boost numbers on this customers map. With the meth map, boost was 20.5 psi max tapering to 14 psi. Here is the Boost Log from the dyno, which also includes the A/F.



Sorry for the confusion,

Miles Hechtman
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post

BTW, measuring the temp of the intake manifold is not measuring IAT. The manifold heat soaks with the heat of the motor. The air inside is moving so quickly that it does not pick up much heat. A thermocouple after the TMIC is about the only way to accurately measure the temp of the air actually going in to the motor.

Probably the best indication that the infrared gun is not at all accurate is that the temp reading you got with the meth spraying was HIGHER. With the latent heat of evaporation of the meth/water mix the actual IAT after the nozzle will be much lower, possibly lower than ambient.
Thank you for the input. Next time I tune a car, I will measure the IAT with 5 thermocouple sensors. One mounted right below the throttle body (like a stock JDM V8), and four individually mounted right before the TGV's. You are correct, that would be ideal.

I only take the infrared temp across 8 or 9 parts of the intake manifold (and take the average) for my own personal information with each tune. This is not science, I use this info and compare it with each car. A good example of using this info would be the plastic legacy intake manifold vs. the factory metal one. With this test, I can tell you that if I turn off all the fans in the dyno room (Dyno room temp would be around 65 degrees, 35% humidity) and let a turbocharged Subaru (using a metal factory style intake manifold) idle for 10 mins, my infrared intake manifold readings would go up to around 140 degrees from 65 degrees. If I do the same test with the Legacy plastic intake manifold, the max temps would be around 85 degrees from 65 degrees. Not only that but, yes lower intake manifold temps increases the volume of air which in turn makes more power. There will be a detailed article on "The Power of Air Density" on our site in the next few weeks.






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Old 04-23-2008, 02:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
Was the customer only looking to use the meth only for added safety? To me getting exactly the same power out of a meth tune with a $900 meth system seems like kind of a waste. There is really no good reason not to up the boost significantly when the meth is spraying.
This customer is an avid autocrosser. The goal with this project, was to gain as much consistent reasonable (safe) torque and horsepower as we could at the lowest rpm (while at the same time throughout the powerband) 12 months a year. This is because it gets very hot in the summer where he lives. I think we did so, 44 wtq (from 3000-4300 rpm), 25-35 wtq (from 4300-5600 rpm) and 25-35 whp (from 3000-5650 rpm).

You can also see with my infrared temp readings, that the power remains roughly the same when the temps rose 45 degrees.


Miles Hecthman
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Old 04-23-2008, 02:28 PM   #11
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Depending on the IR gun you're using you can get varying readings between different materials with different emissivity properties. A high end thermal imager may be able to automatically differentiate and most high end guns will let you choose emissivity setting for whatever material you are shooting. The difference in indicated temp between a natural aluminum finish intake and a matte black plastic intake at the same temperature can be significant because the aluminum reflects more IR than the plastic. That's where the emissivity setting come into play.
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
Interesting power curves... stage 2 STI's generally don't have peak hp at redline and instead start to flatten the horsepower curve around 5500RPM. Are you trying to artificially flatten the torque curve so that power never flattens out? This is a strategy used by some factory turbo tunes to make the powerband feel more like an NA car. While this will make the car feel fast as it continues to pull harder all the way to redline, you are actually foregoing a lot of useable power under the curve. I suppose it really depends on what the customer's goals are, but ultimately the car could safely have significantly more torque and power through most of the powerband.

I'll give it up for taking a different approach, though. The car probably feels very linear and rev happy.

Thanks
-- Ed

Thank you Ed for your input. I agree with you that a tuner can "artificially flatten the torque curve so that power never flattens out". However, I do not really pay attention to that. I tune for what makes the most reliable safe power throughout the power band, not to artificially alter power curves. I create the base map, then make changes throughout the tune in our controlled enviroment (our dyno room) to create more power. The dyno and ECU feedback tells me if my changes make more reliable safe power.

Here is an example of a 07 WRX. (Run #1) had 20.5 psi max, 91 Octane fuel with Meth/H20 injection and made around 340 whp and 350 wtq. (Run #2) had the same map, minutes later (same room temps for consistency) but the max boost was lowered to 18 psi. That only made 317 whp and 303 wtq.

Obviously, we choose to run 20.5 psi max boost map because it made more reliable safe power.


Mods on that 07 WRX are 06 STI engine, APS header/up pipe, APS 3.5 TBE, Blouch 2.5R BB turbo, PE 800cc injectors, factory STI OEM TMIC, Aquamist HFS 5 Meth/H20 injection and a JDM V6 RA 85 mm air box.




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Old 04-23-2008, 03:16 PM   #13
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I just don't understand why your graphs all show peak hp at redline while just about every other tuned stage 2 STI will flatten power past about 5500RPM. Maybe its a dyno configuration issue? Do you have a stock STI baseline to compare against?

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:01 PM   #14
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^^^

Ed,

He is definately leaving gobs of power on the table. It seems as if he isnt familiar with either the capabilites of the ej motors and/or the capabilities of the turbos.

Look at the example he posted with the Blouch 2.5R (basically a Green). He has boost peaking at 20.5 psi with meth and tapering to 16psi at redline, again whats the point? I can peak 23psi and taper to 20psi at redline with my Green on straight 91 octane. And 25psi across the board on meth. Like ed said, whats the point in spending $1000 on a meth kit if you're only gonna run 20psi?

The reason his HP curves are peaking at redline is because he is unnecessarily tapering the boost. I simply cant believe a $1600 47lb/min turbo isnt able to hold 20psi to redline.

Either that turbo sucks, the boost control sucks, or the tune is waayyyyyy conservative. Look at the boost on this $1000 20g 44 lb/min turbo....21psi across the board and flattening hp at 5500rpm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckStu View Post
Here's my graph with a 3" inlet 20-G, with a 7cm hotside. Tuned by Tim Bailey on a Mustang dyno. (Well,.... partially tuned,..we have work to do yet,...I ordered the wastegate ported and it came un-ported, so we ran into creep).

Boost is 20 - 20.8 psi, on 93 octane pump gas, no meth.



Last edited by Phatron; 04-23-2008 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post
I just don't understand why your graphs all show peak hp at redline while just about every other tuned stage 2 STI will flatten power past about 5500RPM. Maybe its a dyno configuration issue? Do you have a stock STI baseline to compare against?

Thanks
-- Ed
Good question Ed. With our controlled enviroment and accurate Room Temp and Humidity readings we can monitor why cars make more or less power. There will be a detailed Article on our website soon named "The Power of Air Density" which states our years of researched results.

Here is two dyno graphs of two different 100% factory stock 2006 STI's. As you can see they are pretty close up to 5500 rpm, but have a difference of 15 whp and 5 wtq. The Dyno Room Temp and Humidity for the TEST STI run was 82 degrees with 40% humidity. They Dyno Room Temp and Humidity for the BASE STI was 60 degrees with 50% humidity.



The Dyno is only a tool that measures wheel torque. There is no Dyno configuration issue. Most of the time, I turn off all the fans in the room and simulate a hot condition and print out the difference for the customer to show them when it is hot outside there car will make less power, due to air density.

Make Sense?

Miles Hechtman
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:38 PM   #16
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Are these gains without a tune for the meth? IE, are you injecting the mix without tuning for it?
Quote:
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^^

Ed,

He is definately leaving gobs of power on the table. It seems as if he isnt familiar with either the capabilites of the ej motors and/or the capabilities of the turbos.

Look at the example he posted with the Blouch 2.5R (basically a Green). He has boost peaking at 20.5 psi with meth and tapering to 16psi at redline, again whats the point? I can peak 23psi and taper to 20psi at redline with my Green on straight 91 octane. And 25psi across the board on meth. Like ed said, whats the point in spending $1000 on a meth kit if you're only gonna run 20psi?

The reason his HP curves are peaking at redline is because he is unnecessarily tapering the boost. I simply cant believe a $1600 47lb/min turbo isnt able to hold 20psi to redline.

Either that turbo sucks, the boost control sucks, or the tune is waayyyyyy conservative. Look at the boost on this $1000 20g 44 lb/min turbo....21psi across the board and flattening hp at 5500rpm.

I understand your response. However, these cars are not race cars. They are daily drivers. These customers want longevity with there mods, not maximum power for a shorter period of time.

On the topic of Dyno numbers, all dyno's read differently, temps in the room combined with humidity influence readings. We usually do a before and after on each tune.

However, I am curious to see what Ed's customers and your customers cars make on our dyno......that would be a great test! Then we can compare apples with apples.

Think about it and let us know when you want to do it.

Miles Hechtman
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:40 PM   #18
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I do not understand this hostile attitude; tuner posts up charts/numbers and, bam!, negative comments come fllying from the usual suspects.
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholam View Post
Are these gains without a tune for the meth? IE, are you injecting the mix without tuning for it?
No, it is tuned for the Meth/H20 injection.


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Old 04-23-2008, 05:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11BC2 View Post
I do not understand this hostile attitude; tuner posts up charts/numbers and, bam!, negative comments come fllying from the usual suspects.
There's really no hostile attitude here, just a respectful discussion. No need to project something else onto it.

These are simply unusual results and graphs so we're discussing why that is. I don't think Miles minds the discussion but I could be wrong?

Thanks
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaus View Post

These are simply unusual results and graphs so we're discussing why that is. I don't think Miles minds the discussion but I could be wrong?

Thanks
-- Ed
Maybe that is what I am arguing, these are not unusual results and graphs. We have been in business for 6 years and have had the same dyno with the same settings for 3 years.




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Old 04-23-2008, 05:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuning @ FLI View Post
However, I am curious to see what Ed's customers and your customers cars make on our dyno......that would be a great test! Then we can compare apples with apples.
Don't hold your breath.

I was present at another shop's grand opening/dyno day when similar offer was extended to an ower of a black STi.
The owner was told he would lose his sponsorship if he put his car on the dyno.
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuning @ FLI View Post
Maybe that is what I am arguing, these are not unusual results and graphs. We have been in business for 6 years and have had the same dyno with the same settings for 3 years.
I find the plots unusual. If you are hitting peak hp at redline then you are leaving power on the table. Not crazy super race car power, normal everyday daily driver power thats safe.

What was the story with that Dom2.5R? Why was the boost tapered to 16psi at redline? Whats the point of getting a bigger turbo and meth and then running 16psi? You could probably get the same power out of the vf39+meth with a more aggressive tune.

As for dyno numbers, i put down 350hp and 320 tq in my wrx and trapped 115mph.
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
As for dyno numbers, i put down 350hp and 320 tq in my wrx and trapped 115mph.
What octane?
What climate conditions?
What type of dyno?
What was the delta in torque/power?
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Old 04-23-2008, 05:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuning @ FLI View Post
Maybe that is what I am arguing, these are not unusual results and graphs. We have been in business for 6 years and have had the same dyno with the same settings for 3 years.




Miles Hechtman
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Miles, it may not be unusual for you or for your dyno, but it is certainly unusual compared to the many other results people post all the time. I suppose I should have been more clear .

BTW, I'll definitely take you up on the offer to put one of mine or my customer's cars up on your dyno. It would indeed be interesting to see a comparison even though conditions will always be a variable. I'll try to arrange something with you in the next couple of weeks if that's ok.

Thanks
-- Ed
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