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Old 01-01-2008, 06:03 AM   #1
Zak Shaker
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Default let's compare PERRIN pw-1, Aquamist 2D & HFS-5, Coolingmist s-HSV

I'm turning around 3 kits for now.
Perrin pw-1, aquamist 2D and Coolinmist S-HSV smart injection

I realy like the PERRIN kit for the fact it is a real complete plug and play kit. it works from IDC what would do a proper % mixture on the full rev range. The only thing that worry me is the fact it use pump speed to vary its flow. It doesn't seem to be the best idea for delay purpose. how laggy is this ? where I live we have very poor octane quality. hence why I'm considering Water/meth injection. now about the Perrin again, the pump delay is what is my concern. will it be fast enough to follow rev rise in first gears ?? also when you are around 4500 rpm, if you unpress the throttle and go WOT again. how long the WI system will take to react ? I'm very affraid of DET in that specific case !

The coolingmist S-HSV and aquamist 2D systems seem to have a better time reaction as the flow is controlled by small valves. I would like to know how they compare with the perrin system on this specific point.
In case of coolingmist trunk kit, I have notice the s-hsv valves are directly mounted on the pump. wouldn't it be better to have them closer to nozzle ? for better time response ?

the coolingmist smart injection might be a nice feature for those who are willing to play around with values and all. on my side I like the idea of following IDC. it will be easier for me to compare with other users system for future reference aswell. we have no tuners in my country, so I'll be the one ****ing around with it. hence why I like the Perrin full kit.
Finaly the aquamist 2D is definitly a lovely unit, but doesn't come as complete as the Perrin does (even if it is a more advanced system)

my WI kit would be installed on the side of the apexi power FC (already installed and mapped with conservative ign map for now)


Does Water/meth injection will affect wideband reading (innovate LC1). if yes how do you tune your fueling then ?
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Last edited by Zak Shaker; 03-27-2008 at 07:45 AM. Reason: cause I can
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Old 01-01-2008, 07:59 AM   #2
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Since Perrin is not often here, I will help out on the technical questions and merits of the system.

The Perrin kit has a ramp speed of 20ms - between 0-100%-0 dutycyle. The pump works similar to a solenoid valve with a high pressure pump integrated inside. Compared this to a PPS system - it is very fast. Perrins has virtually no lag.

IDC tracking is very fast. This is the most comprehensive and compact system we have ever designed, flow is limited to 330cc/min or ~570cc/min with priming pump. 330cc/min of water has a heat absorping properties of ~12KW (16HP).

IDC track gives you very good Load and RPM coverage.

The system comes complete with a digital turbine flow sensor for the failsafe. A very informative 5-led dash panel:

1. Green led -Three state: System on (dim), Start spray (bright) and FIDC reached ~90%(blink).
2. Amber led -Two state: Piston pump cycling and pump DC approaching at ~90% (blink)
3. Blue Led - Two state: Fluid flow monitoring - progressively glows brighter and blinks when approaching ~90% flow sensor output.
4. Yellow led: On/Off Low tank level indication.
5. Red led: Real time IDC vs flow tracking. Low flow error indication. Very advanced failsafe - relay output included.

The system is under priced for the built quality and capabilities.

WBO2 is not affected by a great deal if you are running IDC traccking and M50/W50. Based on a fuel/water ratio between 10-15%.

Last edited by Aquamist; 01-01-2008 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:16 AM   #3
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:38 AM   #4
Zak Shaker
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thanks a lot for your imput Richard.

20ms time response seems fair enough. so you mean the pump keep same RPM and then a valve regulates the flow inside? sounds just great to me.

I saw the failsafe and dash display devices (loving it since it became black !). this is the most complete kit to my eyes. hence why I'm heavily considering it (even if there are more advance systems, I'm not to that level). Not fan of the flashy red color thought (I like blue better ). I'd have to find a way to hide it in the already crowded engine bay.

still have few things to think about. like which water tank to use (waterspray or screenwasher). you have already answered few month back, but still thinking of it. could I use waterspray tank and still use waterspray ? sounds a bit stupid thought... just that I like to keep standard items if I can. especialy as mine is uprated with full spray mode for hillclimb/smallrace purpose


my car is a impreza STI type R v5

Last edited by Zak Shaker; 01-01-2008 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post
I'm turning around 3 kits for now.
Perrin pw-1, aquamist 2D and Coolinmist S-HSV smart injection

I realy like the PERRIN kit for the fact it is a real complete plug and play kit. it works from IDC what would do a proper % mixture on the full rev range. The only thing that worry me is the fact it use pump speed to vary its flow. It doesn't seem to be the best idea for delay purpose. how laggy is this ? where I live we have very poor octane quality. hence why I'm considering Water/meth injection. now about the Perrin again, the pump delay is what is my concern. will it be fast enough to follow rev rise in first gears ?? also when you are around 4500 rpm, if you unpress the throttle and go WOT again. how long the WI system will take to react ? I'm very affraid of DET in that specific case !

The coolingmist S-HSV and aquamist 2D systems seem to have a better time reaction as the flow is controlled by small valves. I would like to know how they compare with the perrin system on this specific point.
In case of coolingmist trunk kit, I have notice the s-hsv valves are directly mounted on the pump. wouldn't it be better to have them closer to nozzle ? for better time response ?

the coolingmist smart injection might be a nice feature for those who are willing to play around with values and all. on my side I like the idea of following IDC. it will be easier for me to compare with other users system for future reference aswell. we have no tuners in my country, so I'll be the one ****ing around with it. hence why I like the Perrin full kit.
Finaly the aquamist 2D is definitly a lovely unit, but doesn't come as complete as the Perrin does (even if it is a more advanced system)

my WI kit would be installed on the side of the apexi power FC (already installed and mapped with conservative ign map for now)


Does Water/meth injection will affect wideband reading (innovate LC1). if yes how do you tune your fueling then ?
Zach,

I would like to add that if you get the S-HSV with the Smart Injection you will be capable of mapping upto 3 inputs and merge into 1. With the reaction of the small valve and 3D mapping you would have full control and have a nice failsafe. You can integrate RPM, Boost and Temp into the injection mapping if you wish. With the failsafe you can do just about anything you can think of with it. You can even integrate your wideband into it.

The S-HSV pictures the valve at the pump, you get fittings so you can connect to the pump or at the injector. Its better to put them closer to the injector. With the S-HSV we can flow upto 10 GPH. Reaction time is very fast. Here is the video on the S-HSV with smart injection software. The flow sensor reports the flow. You will notice a nice smooth flow and very fast response.

http://www.coolingmist.com/newspage....=Smartsoftware


I recommend you look at our dual sequential nozzle kit as well. Its more complex than our S-HSV however it has many interesting features. It has the best range of any system we have ever made. If you watch our videos you will see the system is very fast as well.

Feel free to ask more questions if you wish.

David

Last edited by Coolingmist; 01-01-2008 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post
thanks a lot for your imput Richard.

... So you mean the pump keep same RPM and then a valve regulates the flow inside? sounds just great to me.
...
Not quite, the system is more advanced than that.

The motion (control flow) of the pistion inside the pump is controlled by PWM (Pulse width modulation) and PPM (pulse position modulation) algorithm. The piston stroke is updated every 1/50th of a second by the controller in relation to FIDC. The system works almost like an engine.

The solenoid valve merely acts as an on/off gate - nothing complicated. We have persuded Perrin to employ a solenoid valve rather than a checkvale to avoid any dribble or high vacuum applications.

Last edited by Aquamist; 01-01-2008 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post

my car is a impreza STI type R v5
I nearly visited your country whilst I was in SA a few years ago. It is a paradise - I was told.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:13 AM   #8
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Hello David,
thanks for you answer, I have checked your smart injection devices. Very interesting devices for those who are willing to play with many value and make the best of it on my side my main worry is to update octane value back to japaneese value as my car was meant to use RON102 at first. Hence why I like the FIDC copy concept as I'm confident octane value would be quite consistant on any case. As I said previously we have no tuner nor rolling road in the country. so I'm quite limited to my own knowledge and road tuning... I also quite like the idea of just tuning one main ECU only (power FC in my case) is there anyway to follow FIDC with your smart injection ?. I'm convinced your smart injection device + s-hsv is a great kit thought. on top of it, I'm happy to hear that the s-hsv can/should be place closer to injectors (that's what I thought, I could image delay trouble only when place in the trunk).
On your video, I don't see the only case that realy worry me : "when you are around 4500 rpm, if you unpress the throttle and go WOT again. how long the WI system will take to react ? I'm very affraid of DET in that specific case". Your video shows that the system does follow (slow) MAF sensor rize. What I hope any WI progressive system can do. otherwize I would just run away from them.
Just out of curiosity, on your sequencial nozzles system. don't you have peak trouble when second nozzle starts ? (even if first one stops, there is a small amount of time before water hose eliminate pressure, isn't it ?)


Richard, interesting. this pump seems to be real piece of art
Thinking out of my mind. if I'm right, my engine is max rev is 7800 rpm, what is 130 rotation per second, so it means Fuel Injector fire 75 time in a sec in worse case. your pump react every 1/50th of second what is very close to max injector duty speed (75 per sec). The PERRIN kit has 20ms delay what I guess is more than injector lag. (BTW could someone tell me standard 550cc injector lag ?) any problems should be encountered cause of this lag time ? what is the Aquamist 2D delay ?
about the 330cc/min the pump can flow (without primer pump). will this be enough for my standard STI ej20 with vf28 turbo? (550cc fuel injector)
I was in Cape town and west Cape Region One month ago. lovely place. Mauritius is quite a nice place, I have to agrea I'm not Mauritian thought. I'm born and grew up in France, My brother left to Florida and I've choosen Mauritius

Last edited by Zak Shaker; 01-02-2008 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post
Hello David,
thanks for you answer, I have checked your smart injection devices. Very interesting devices for those who are willing to play with many value and make the best of it on my side my main worry is to update octane value back to japaneese value as my car was meant to use RON102 at first. Hence why I like the FIDC copy concept as I'm confident octane value would be quite consistant on any case. As I said previously we have no tuner nor rolling road in the country. so I'm quite limited to my own knowledge and road tuning... I also quite like the idea of just tuning one main ECU only (power FC in my case). I'm convinced your smart injection device + s-hsv is a great kit thought. on top of it, I'm happy to hear that the s-hsv can/should be place closer to injectors (that's what I thought, I could image delay trouble only when place in the trunk)
On your video, I don't see the only case that realy worry me : "when you are around 4500 rpm, if you unpress the throttle and go WOT again. how long the WI system will take to react ? I'm very affraid of DET in that specific case". Your video shows that the system does follow (slow) MAF sensor rize. What I hope any WI progressive system can do. otherwize I would just run away from them.
Just out of curiosity, on your sequencial nozzles system. don't you have peak trouble when second nozzle starts ? (even if first one stops, there is a small amount of time before water hose eliminate pressure, isn't it ?)
thank you let me try to answer.

On your video, I don't see the only case that realy worry me : "when you are around 4500 rpm, if you unpress the throttle and go WOT again. how long the WI system will take to react ? I'm very affraid of DET in that specific case". Your video shows that the system does follow (slow) MAF sensor rize. What I hope any WI progressive system can do. otherwize I would just run away from them.


The video you are looking at with the S-HSV using MAF I would assume. The curve was set to follow the MAF exactly. I see no delay what so ever. I need a little clarification on what you mean so I can answer correct.

I will be glad to take some videos for you to demo. I will need some time to set them up.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, on your sequencial nozzles system. don't you have peak trouble when second nozzle starts ? (even if first one stops, there is a small amount of time before water hose eliminate pressure, isn't it
Not at all. Thats the beauty of the system. You have a 2D grid that you can setup to your liking. You can set it up so its seamless. If you look at our videos (other than the S-HSV) they are all doing dual sequential nozzles. Notice with the flow meter you can tell it get more aggressive at higher dutycycyle/rpm but its not spiking. You can make it completely seamless. Here is a good example. The second nozzle comes in at around 4500 or so. You never see a spike but you see it ramp up very fast.

http://coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=21#video

Here is another, same idea

http://coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=20#video

David
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:28 PM   #10
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Zak,

I did some videos for you.

This will injects from a dead stop and back down again. Watch the flow meter to the right. This is NON S-HSV using our Vari-Cool and Smart Injection.

You can see the reaction time yourself. There is a misperception that shurflo pumps are sluggish and that it cant keep up with RPM. You can judge for yourself in this video. If you need another video made, or some other circumstance I will be glad. I still believe our S-HSV is faster, however if the kit is setup correctly you can have fantastic results with the Shurflo pump being PWM.

I will also point out that the pump is not pulsing, that is a big reason why the response time is as quick as it is. If the pump was allowed to pulse, you would see slower reaction time and flow jumping all over the place. All of our customers who purchase a vari-cool kit with the smart injection can set it up this way (pulse free).

This one is from a dead stop.
http://www.coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=22#video


this one is from 1200 RPM and UP.
http://www.coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=23#video

Due to the unique dual sequential nozzles, there is no deteoration of atomization. You get spectacular atomization and range on both ends.

Last edited by Coolingmist; 01-03-2008 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 01-02-2008, 04:01 PM   #11
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Zak,

I like to clarify 20ms is not the "reaction" time. it is the cyclic period - between 0-100%-0. Compare it to an engine, it takes 20ms to rev from 1000rpm to 7000RPM and back down to 1000rpm.

Reaction time is approximately 5ms.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:56 PM   #12
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Perrin has a GREAT price on their kits on their website
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post
The only thing that worry me is the fact it use pump speed to vary its flow.
completely different pump setup!
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Shaker View Post

Richard, interesting. this pump seems to be real piece of art
Thinking out of my mind. if I'm right, my engine is max rev is 7800 rpm, what is 130 rotation per second, so it means Fuel Injector fire 75 time in a sec in worse case. your pump react every 1/50th of second what is very close to max injector duty speed (75 per sec). The PERRIN kit has 20ms delay what I guess is more than injector lag. (BTW could someone tell me standard 550cc injector lag ?) any problems should be encountered cause of this lag time ? what is the Aquamist 2D delay ?
about the 330cc/min the pump can flow (without primer pump). will this be enough for my standard STI ej20 with vf28 turbo? (550cc fuel injector)
I was in Cape town and west Cape Region One month ago. lovely place. Mauritius is quite a nice place, I have to agrea I'm not Mauritian thought. I'm born and grew up in France, My brother left to Florida and I've choosen Mauritius
Taking things a bit further, the pump more or less has the same update interval as a fuel injector. I may have confused you with delays and reaction time.

You are delivering 2200cc/min at 100%. 10% of this is 220cc/min and 15% is 330cc/min. The Perrin system without a priming pump can give you a maximum W/F ratio of 15%. This is about the maximum rate before you need to start taking fuel out to compensate.

All pump speed system references their flow against water pressure. Pressure through a nozzle (restrictor) does not translate linearly to flow. You can see the flow curves on the "indepth..." thread.

The perrin system is not strictly a "pump-speed/flow" system although people regards it as one. Atomisation rate does not deteriorate as much against the PPS system at low pump dc. The water pressure is generated by a piston with the same spring rating. We vary the frequency and stroke of the piston to be al linear to the incoming signal as possible.



The nearest system that will mirror IDC is the Aquamist HFS-5. But it is not on your list.

The drive along the west coast of Cape town is especially beautiful.

Last edited by Aquamist; 01-03-2008 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:03 PM   #15
Zak Shaker
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Thanks David, those videos are great imput
thanks for the dual nozzles explaination. I'll look closer to this later on.
Do you have any kit that would follow FIDC too ?


Richard, thanks for your last explanations. at least I understand how that pump work inside. (nice animated gif)
Quick question, where does that 2200 cc/min value comes from ?
so you are saying I could go up to 15% WI with the perrin kit on my setup. I have understood 10 to 15% is recomended value. So that's just sound perfect to me.
Now you said "15% is about the maximum rate before you need to start taking fuel out to compensate."
I thought I would have to take fuel out even at 5% ?! I have an apexi Power FC, so it is not a prob to take out some fuel. the WI % is garanteed at any RPM and boost. isn't it ? (as it is just following FIDC). I mean if I choose a nozzle that will do 14% WI, this will be consistant at any RPM and boost. Am I right ? I want to be sure Octane values will be always consistant here.

IF I use 50:50 water/meth injection at 12% on RON92. what would be final octane value ?

I just had a look at your HFS-5. (it wasn't on your website) it looks like a uprated version of the Perrin (more flow). not sure I need more flow on my engine setup thought.

I have the strange feeling a PERRIN KIT with additional trunk tank with primer pump would just be ideal. do they offer such option ?

I have done quite few photos in westcape area :
westcape safari

Last edited by Zak Shaker; 01-06-2008 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:43 PM   #16
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I checked out your DJ site Zak, nice work! I like the freemix page

<---retired DJ
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:04 AM   #17
Zak Shaker
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thanks Eric
I went twice to Tampa. first time to go to Bush Garden when I was 15 years old (20 years ago...), then to check everett-morrison factory
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:37 PM   #18
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Zak,

What chord were you playing on the piano?
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:52 PM   #19
Zak Shaker
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haha, it was something like "Tang, tang, tang" as only one key was (almost) producing a sound on that piano lol
this photo was taken on long street in a backpacker hotel named "carnival court"

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Old 01-07-2008, 04:16 PM   #20
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Whatever it was, looked very jazzy. Mr Peterson would have been very impressed.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:12 AM   #21
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you think so ? he would probably have noticed the broken Piano
I'm all in mellow & groovy sound. So Jazz in the source I will end for sure

Any answers to my last technical questions & worries ?
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Old 01-08-2008, 01:17 PM   #22
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Zak,

answers and answers...

Richard, thanks for your last explanations. at least I understand how that pump work inside. (nice animated gif)
Quick question, where does that 2200 cc/min value comes from ?
I read from you previous post that you have 550cc injectors so a total of 2200cc.

so you are saying I could go up to 15% WI with the perrin kit on my setup. I have understood 10 to 15% is recomended value. So that's just sound perfect to me.
OK, agreed.

Now you said "15% is about the maximum rate before you need to start taking fuel out to compensate."
I thought I would have to take fuel out even at 5% ?! I have an apexi Power FC, so it is not a prob to take out some fuel. the WI % is guaranteed at any RPM and boost. isn't it ? (as it is just following FIDC).
15% is about the maximum you can injector without the feel of bogging down. Not ideal but acceptable. If you run a few more psi, it will use up the extra intercooling cooling and rid of the bogging down effect.


I mean if I choose a nozzle that will do 14% WI, this will be consistent at any RPM and boost. Am I right ? I want to be sure Octane values will be always consistant here.

The 14% will only be true if you go for an IDC based system. If your fueling is consist with RPM and boost, so will be the Perrin system. If you really want more accuracy, you need to consider the HFS-5 system - almost the same as having a duel fuel system.


IF I use 50:50 water/meth injection at 12% on RON92. what would be final octane value ?
Don't quote me, a 5% methanol/fuel will improve octane by 2-3 points. The increase is not linear. I believe there was a thread a year ior two ago on this forum, people did discuss this in great length - do some digging.

Water ability to raise octane is by improving in-cylinder cooling whereas Methanol adds cooling and octane value.
I just had a look at your HFS-5. (it wasn't on your website) it looks like a uprated version of the Perrin (more flow). not sure I need more flow on my engine setup thought.
The Perrin's IDC emulation to fuel is completely different to the HFS-5. Apart from not having a RRFPR compensation, you can practically run your entire car on it. It is the nearest WAI system to the to the stock system.


I have the strange feeling a PERRIN KIT with additional trunk tank with primer pump would just be ideal. do they offer such option ?

I don't think Perrin offer a priming pump nopr tank. Flambeau has a great range of water tank - long and thin, ideal for this type of work. They also have tank with inbuilt priming pump.

http://fluids.flambeau.com/

Here is an example (exaggerated):
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Old 01-12-2008, 02:07 PM   #23
Zak Shaker
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Thanks richard.

yes I have understood that water/meth inject would let me have a bit more boost with same fuel injector capacity. that's one of the good side of it I'm still planning to bog down fueling on the full RPM range to have a proper setting. I would have thought that if I add 15% water/meth I would have to remove 15% of fuel on the full fuel map. Am I right or thinking wrong ?

so 12% water/meth (50:50) would add around 3 octane points then. if starting with RON95 That would end with RON98 . not that bad. still missing 4 point to reach JDM specs Thought. I'll dig for exact values
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Old 01-12-2008, 08:46 PM   #24
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Water, as you know can not replace gasoline as fuel. It just assist the incylinder cooling. You can need to to raise octane rating, you need to add more methanol.

Water only assist on effective octane ratio rather than a direct octane replacement. Knock suppression is related octane valve and peak combustion temperature. Water does the latter. Do go by octane valve replacment as mentioned above.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:54 AM   #25
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yep water cannot be ingnited for sure
But on our turboed engines we use very rich Air/Fuel ratio to cool down combustion chamber. 11.5:1 compared to 13:1 on NA engines. I would have thought that when using WI (or WMI) we should lean everything that is richer than 12:1 on the fuel map as water is here to cool down, no need of richer air/fuel ratios

that would also results with a more economical car to drive

Last edited by Zak Shaker; 01-21-2008 at 03:18 PM.
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