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Old 06-12-2008, 04:13 PM   #1
Scooby921
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Default Motor noob...Q's about an EJ22T build

While I know suspension parts, brands, setup, and tuning better than most, I know next to nothing about building motors and choosing components and manufacturers. I'm hoping the engine build gurus here can help me find the right components to get the result I'm looking for.

I've searched and read through several other EJ22 build threads, looked into the issues between phase I and II 2.5L cranks, read about gasket thicknesses and clearances, tried to look into pistons and rods, started reading about offset pins, saw the word "quenched" and went cross-eyed, and got really concerned when I saw someone mention head gasket thickness affecting the timing belt.

I don't want to start this like so many of the threads I read. Instead of just bombarding everyone with question after question I'd like to do this a civilized way. Tell me what information you need from me before you can start making recommendations about a build and what components / brands to use.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:29 PM   #2
Scooby921
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Ok, I guess I'll post my idea and hopefully you guys can fill in the blanks...

For the most part the engine will be a daily driver. I do a fair amount of autocrossing and I may do a track day here or there, those being 20-30 minute lapping sessions. High end power goal is 400whp. There are a lot of other supporting parts that will have to go along with it, but I would like a motor that can get me there safely and reliably (if those two words can be used in the same sentence).

My idea is to bore the cylinders out to 98mm. I want to use an STi 2.5L crank and will have the block and crank machined to fit together. Obviously this requires the use of some STi rods and some kind of forged piston. I will be starting with stock WRX heads. Ported and polished heads with larger valves and more aggressive cams are a future plan, maybe next year. Being that its going to see autocross use and I want to maintain low RPM response I was debating running a higher compression ratio and less boost. Turbo size is undetermined, but I'd rather have low-end response over high-end power.

My questions:
Using a head gasket thickness close to stock, are there any pistons out there that will give me an 8.5:1 or 9.0:1 compression ratio or am I looking at something custom?
Who else aside from CP will make custom pistons?
Hearing mention of Wiseco using an offset pin location...what is the advantage?
H-beam and I-beam rods...any reason to run one over the other?
Rods...Pauter, Eagle, Cosworth, Cobb, Element Tuning, Crower, Helix, Crawford...is one far and away better than the others?
Given my planned use, do you have recommendations on where set bearing and piston clearances?
I've seen ACL and Cosworth thrown around for bearings...any others to look at or are those the two major recommended manufacturers?
Being that the block has piston squirters, will the stock 10mm oil pump be sufficient or should I upgrade to an 11mm pump (yes I've been reading up on the current debate on oil pump sizes...but there doesn't seem to be a solid answer yet)?
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:23 PM   #3
icslowmo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
Ok, I guess I'll post my idea and hopefully you guys can fill in the blanks...

For the most part the engine will be a daily driver. I do a fair amount of autocrossing and I may do a track day here or there, those being 20-30 minute lapping sessions. High end power goal is 400whp. There are a lot of other supporting parts that will have to go along with it, but I would like a motor that can get me there safely and reliably (if those two words can be used in the same sentence).

My idea is to bore the cylinders out to 98mm. I want to use an STi 2.5L crank and will have the block and crank machined to fit together. Obviously this requires the use of some STi rods and some kind of forged piston. I will be starting with stock WRX heads. Ported and polished heads with larger valves and more aggressive cams are a future plan, maybe next year. Being that its going to see autocross use and I want to maintain low RPM response I was debating running a higher compression ratio and less boost. Turbo size is undetermined, but I'd rather have low-end response over high-end power.

My questions:
Using a head gasket thickness close to stock, are there any pistons out there that will give me an 8.5:1 or 9.0:1 compression ratio or am I looking at something custom?
Who else aside from CP will make custom pistons?
Hearing mention of Wiseco using an offset pin location...what is the advantage?
H-beam and I-beam rods...any reason to run one over the other?
Rods...Pauter, Eagle, Cosworth, Cobb, Element Tuning, Crower, Helix, Crawford...is one far and away better than the others?
Given my planned use, do you have recommendations on where set bearing and piston clearances?
I've seen ACL and Cosworth thrown around for bearings...any others to look at or are those the two major recommended manufacturers?
Being that the block has piston squirters, will the stock 10mm oil pump be sufficient or should I upgrade to an 11mm pump (yes I've been reading up on the current debate on oil pump sizes...but there doesn't seem to be a solid answer yet)?
I would keep the stock crank and and put forged rods and pistons for the 2.2L specs and run the 08' Sti oil pump with your 2.0L heads as you talked about. Get a good Rotated mount 3076R kit and that should be good for the motor. In order to run a 2.5L crank, I believe it has to be a phase 1 crank due to the thrust bearing being in the center of the block versus a Sti crank's thrust bearing is in the rear so it would not fit. Also the phase 1 crank has smaller mains and rod bearings then a sti crank and rods. Just spin the set-up to 8k w/ boost coming on around 3,800-4,000 and holding till redline. Would be a great power band for auto cross..

Just my 2 cents though.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:55 PM   #4
Kosmic
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Scooby921, I'm doing something similar to your build. I will be using ported wrx heads, USDM STI 79mm crank also.

I don't have time right now to answer your questions but I will in the following days.

It looked like you read/searched a lot, I will try to help you out with my limited knowledge.

If you plan to buy the EJ22T block I would suggest to buy a EJ257 block instead. If you got it (EJ22T) for free then, you are in the same boat as me.

The build will be much more trouble free with the EJ257.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:10 AM   #5
Broxma
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My plan was similar. I have scraped the plan but have the complete engine and heads. Tranny became my problem so I had to ditch the whole idea.
Anyway, I got an EJ22t block, bored .020 for Wiseco's, Eagle rods using the stock EJ22T crank. Final disp. is 2.25.

Stock WRX heads, master builder ported with DPR stage 2 cams, Ferrea 6000 series 1mm over valves, Ti retainers, locks and ferrea springs.

I was going to use a .051 HG but I had to get the EJ22 block line bored so I lost 4 thou on each half. I also cut 5 thou off the deck of the block and each head.

Fundamentally, the Wiseco (Or stock for that matter) pistons have a deck protrusion of .012, but with the cutting I did it would be .021 (5 off the block deck, 4 from the one side of the half). Add in .005 for the mill on the head and my original .039 clearance (.051-.012) had become .025.

Unfortunately, alot of the EJ22T blocks left must be line bored to get thier journals straight. Alot have 200K plus miles and have journals 4-5 thou out of spec. Add in the deck protrusion and you have to start thinking creatively. My plan was to cut 10 thou off the piston, and get back to .035.

Another problem is the 1mm over valves and the longer duration of the cams may interfere with internal clearance, so I was going to assemble the entire thing with helper springs and putty the pistons to check clearance inside.

All this being said, the .051 HG with a slight mill of the decks, would get you close to 8.5-1 CR. To thin of a HG though and the piston will hit the heads. Not enough relief in the piston dish and a few thou milled off, and the valves may hit.

To answer another question, the offset pin is to allow the piston to somewhat "Spin" when it hits TDC. The idea is to offset the pin so that upon stopping, the piston won't come to a direct stop but rather turn the slightest amount making the reciprocation smoother.

For the price, I'd go with the 11 mm 08 STI oil pump. The stock EJ22T pump is 10mm, even though on mine it wasn't stamped so. I disassembled it, micro polished the spur gears and measured it. It's 10mm, just like the WRX pump.

For clearances, I'd go factory spec plus a few. I think I went 17 on the rods , 22 on the mains, and piston/wall of about 27.

Another thing, the coated Cobb rod bearings I got, are slightly eccentric. I don't know why, but they are.

My motor is currently being built by Kendrick Performance in San Antonio and the heads were done by them as well. Soon as they are done though, I am selling them. The 3.000,00 tranny repair bill broke my bank.

/Brox
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:41 AM   #6
reddevil
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Power is all in the tuning.

Not knocking good builds, but I made 300 whp with an NA 2.2 block, stock NA crank and rods (same as the ej22t), EJ22T stock pistons and some modded NA DOHC heads. 22(?) psi?

And I admit I popped it. As I said, power is all in the tuning! Wasnt pulling enough timing.

But I did a 12.8@ 110 or so on that motor.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:29 AM   #7
Scooby921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icslowmo View Post
I would keep the stock crank and and put forged rods and pistons for the 2.2L specs and run the 08' Sti oil pump with your 2.0L heads as you talked about. Get a good Rotated mount 3076R kit and that should be good for the motor. In order to run a 2.5L crank, I believe it has to be a phase 1 crank due to the thrust bearing being in the center of the block versus a Sti crank's thrust bearing is in the rear so it would not fit. Also the phase 1 crank has smaller mains and rod bearings then a sti crank and rods. Just spin the set-up to 8k w/ boost coming on around 3,800-4,000 and holding till redline. Would be a great power band for auto cross..

Just my 2 cents though.
I already have the 22T block sitting in a box in the garage. I'm not real worried about being able to spin it to 8k, and I'd like boost to come in sooner than that. I auto-x on the stock turbo right now, and hitting full boost at 3100 is slow IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Power is all in the tuning.

Not knocking good builds, but I made 300 whp with an NA 2.2 block, stock NA crank and rods (same as the ej22t), EJ22T stock pistons and some modded NA DOHC heads. 22(?) psi?

And I admit I popped it. As I said, power is all in the tuning! Wasnt pulling enough timing.

But I did a 12.8@ 110 or so on that motor.
Yes, power is in the tuning. I plan on running a couple different maps for daily driving, autocrossing, and track days depending on what I'm using for gas and how hard I feel like pushing the car. I'd still like to have the engine built well enough to handle the amount of power I'd like to pull from it.

If I can build a motor to handle 400+whp without having to spend a lot of cash on high-end forged components I'd love to go that route. I want reliability, but don't want to waste money on parts that aren't necessary to meet the end goal.



Thanks for the responses thus far. If any of you have more info or comments on components and what companies are good I'd appreciate the help.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:52 AM   #8
Acroduster
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Default Popped

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil View Post
Power is all in the tuning.

Not knocking good builds, but I made 300 whp with an NA 2.2 block, stock NA crank and rods (same as the ej22t), EJ22T stock pistons and some modded NA DOHC heads. 22(?) psi?

And I admit I popped it. As I said, power is all in the tuning! Wasnt pulling enough timing.

But I did a 12.8@ 110 or so on that motor.
Hey Reddevil,
If you don't mind telling, what failed that caused it to pop?
Thanks!
Ben
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Old 06-17-2008, 01:44 AM   #9
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You're going to have to have a machine shop fit the pistons and crank anyways, so why not just leave it to them? Use a good quality piston (I have CP's in two motors I've built and been very happy) and rods (Pauter or Arrow). The rest can be OEM, Cosworth, ACL, ARP or what ever your machinest/engine builder suggests. The small stuff doesn't make that much of a difference in the final cost, its the big stuff like the pistons, rods and machine work that add up to a whopper of a bill.

Also plug the piston oil squirters. A forged piston won't have any problem dealing with the heat and there are more important places for that oil to go.

Some machine shops will fit everything for you and may let you do the final assembly yourself. This might save you a few hundred dollars and won't be that hard if you have an experienced friend help you.

Also, use a machine shop that is experienced with Subarus. I've heard of too many horror stories from guys that have brought Subaru motors to inexperienced machine shops. They may use a technique or a process thats fine for an old iron V8, but it will ruin a Subaru motor.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:25 AM   #10
reddevil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acroduster View Post
Hey Reddevil,
If you don't mind telling, what failed that caused it to pop?
Thanks!
Ben


Odds are on too far advanced timing.
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