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Old 06-25-2008, 03:49 AM   #1
RA Limited
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Default Oil cooler vs high-cap oil pan vs baffles

Ok- i just fuxor'd my motor, and i want to rebuild it with the hopes of not overheating bearings and/or sufferent oil starvation again...

my options/ideas:

1) ARC Oil Pan... It is higher capacity and has a nice baffle in it. Like $450+, but everybody raves about it. I'm not sure if my Primitive skid plate will clear it, but i can check on The Wrath of Khan's car- he has this pan...

2) Oil Cooler... they add some capacity, and actually lower the temps effectively... but don't they also lower oil pressure? Would the 12mm STi oil pump help that?

3) Cosworth Oil Pan Baffle.... This little number is like $300 or something, and i honestly don't see how it would be very effective, since it doesn't stick down into the pan hardly at all. Might just be my EJ noobness showing, but somebody throw me a bone here.

there is also a Tomei Baffle Stiffener which looks nice, and it is also $300something. Once again, i don't know how this could help much, since it is an insert between the block and the pan, and doesn't hang down much.

Any other reccomendations?
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:56 AM   #2
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interested in responses as well.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:18 AM   #3
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My G35 has high oil consumption (which is normal) and I didn't want to worry about it running low. I increased the capacity by almost two quarts by adding dual remote filters in parallel. I took the time to research Purolators site and found some HUGE filters with the correct specifications which also happen to match the Subaru.

The combination of 8-10 times the filtration area plus using the filters in parallel should have reduced the back pressure (even with the restriction of the lines).
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RA Limited View Post
Ok- i just fuxor'd my motor, and i want to rebuild it with the hopes of not overheating bearings and/or sufferent oil starvation again...
Well I'm not sure what "overheating bearings" is exactly, but if you've damaged the engine bearings through a failure of the oil system it either came from overheating the oil and destroying it's lubricity properties, or removing oil flow to the bearings through some sort of delivery issue (pump, flow restrictions etc.)

The solutions you've stated do not have the same result in application. Pans and baffles are designed to control oil movement in a wet sump application and possibly increase oil reserve volume if the pan is of larger internal volume. Oil coolers are there to reduce oil temperatures to in order to reduce the tendency for oils to break down under high temperature and high pressure.

If I was to design a cost effective system for a replacement engine I would combine a large pump, a remote oil filter and cooler, and an oil accumulator for situations where the pump pickup may become uncovered or cavitation might occur. I'd plumb everything with -8 and high quality fittings to keep ID restrictions to a minimum.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:27 AM   #5
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thanks for breaking it down for me man. I'll consider these options in my rebuild
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:07 AM   #6
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I fail to see the point in beating around the bush with high capacity pans and baffles (which are for reducing consumption, not temperature).

If you have hot oil: use an oil-cooler.

Everything else you listed is merely a less-efficient form of a heat-exchanger, which is what an oil-cooler is DESIGNED to do as efficiently as possible. They all, eventually, move the heat into the cooler ambient air around the car. Putting the oil through a high-surface-area cooler is the best way to move the heat out of the oil, into the air. Objective achieved.

Things like large capacity oil pans have dangers too: if the oil is allowed to cool too much, and sit in the pain, it tends to collect small amounts of moisture, which is seriously deleterious to the lubricating abilities of the oil.

It's better to keep the oil in the pan HOT, and cool it RIGHT BEFORE you put it into the engine. Most well-designed factory setups use a thermostat with a temperature set above, or near, the boiling point of water. That way the moisture is kept out of the oil, especially if any is collected by a recirculating PCV system. However, with a good cooler, despite the hot oil in the pan, the engine always receives oil at MUCH cooler temperatures, as you'd want it to.
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
I fail to see the point in beating around the bush with high capacity pans and baffles (which are for reducing consumption, not temperature).

If you have hot oil: use an oil-cooler.

Everything else you listed is merely a less-efficient form of a heat-exchanger, which is what an oil-cooler is DESIGNED to do as efficiently as possible. They all, eventually, move the heat into the cooler ambient air around the car. Putting the oil through a high-surface-area cooler is the best way to move the heat out of the oil, into the air. Objective achieved.

Things like large capacity oil pans have dangers too: if the oil is allowed to cool too much, and sit in the pain, it tends to collect small amounts of moisture, which is seriously deleterious to the lubricating abilities of the oil.

It's better to keep the oil in the pan HOT, and cool it RIGHT BEFORE you put it into the engine. Most well-designed factory setups use a thermostat with a temperature set above, or near, the boiling point of water. That way the moisture is kept out of the oil, especially if any is collected by a recirculating PCV system. However, with a good cooler, despite the hot oil in the pan, the engine always receives oil at MUCH cooler temperatures, as you'd want it to.
I agree with you on the oil cooler, but for my own knowledge, how do larger oil pans and/or baffled oil pans reduce consumption?

I thought baffled oil pans were to keep the intake from sucking up air while pulling high G's (stops oil from sloshing around).

and I thought large capacity oil pans were simply a safety margin thing.

Obviously oil cooler is typically for a race application where you're hitting really high temperatures.


I kind of figured for regular daily driving, these options were pretty much over kill. My stock WRX oil pan actually has quite a few baffles in it already, and I have a koyo race radiator for added insurance against spiking engine temps.

Next year when I go into stage rally, i'll look into an oil cooler.

The above is just my understanding of these products...feel free to offer point/counter point so I can increase my understanding and make better decisions for my rally build.

TIA
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Old 06-26-2008, 02:41 AM   #8
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does anyone know if ARC oil pan clears Full-Race headers?
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:52 AM   #9
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The mention of reduction in oil consumption was in reference to the baffles. By keeping it from being flung about by the crankshaft, it reduces the amount that blows into the cylinders, increasing the small amount that bypasses the oil-scraper rings ... and reduces the amount which blows into the PCV system, where much of it is either burnt, or thrown away.

Better baffles do decrease oil temps slightly, by reducing the viscosity-induced drag (which is converted into hotter internal engine temps, partly in terms of the oil) which would be greater were the baffles not there to prevent it.

I'm also not saying EVERY car needs an oil-cooler. But you'd be better off with one, and a good thermostat, than a cool oil pan, because of what I said about condensation forming in cool oil at the bottom of a cool oil pan.

It's not generally a major issue, but small amounts of moisture in the oil DOES reduce engine life to some degree; you should have seen the measures aircraft engines took/take to help reduce condensation formation, which naturally wants to form anywhere there's saturated air as they drop in altitude (and thus increase pressure) after being quite high for quite a while.
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:16 AM   #10
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Option 4

4) Oil cooler + JDM or 08 sti oil-pump + accusump

This offers better cooling, higher/more oil flow and protection against fluctuating oil pressures (high g corners, braking, etc).
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
Option 4

4) Oil cooler + JDM or 08 sti oil-pump + accusump

This offers better cooling, higher/more oil flow and protection against fluctuating oil pressures (high g corners, braking, etc).
remote oil filters
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOEFLAT4 View Post
does anyone know if ARC oil pan clears Full-Race headers?
I doubt it
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
remote oil filters
Not sure why, but when I refer to oil cooler, I also mean a remote oil cooler as well.

Just makes sense to do both together, and most oil-cooler kits include a remote oil filter option anyhoo
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
remote oil filters
anyone have this?

http://www.teammfactory.com/products...20Cooler%20Kit

cheapest thing I've seen so far, and includes the hardware to remote locate the filter.

Key for rally, since its double protection from anything hitting the oil filter and puncturing it w/o knowing.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
I fail to see the point in beating around the bush with high capacity pans and baffles (which are for reducing consumption, not temperature).
What sort of baffles are you talking about? When I see a baffled oil pan, it has trap doors to keep the oil pump pickup submerged in high-g situations. It has nothing to do with reducing oil consumption at the rings or PCV and everything to do with maintaining oil pressure by ensuring the pickup is submerged all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaabTuner View Post
Things like large capacity oil pans have dangers too: if the oil is allowed to cool too much, and sit in the pain, it tends to collect small amounts of moisture, which is seriously deleterious to the lubricating abilities of the oil.
How is the oil in the pan "sitting" there, and how is it getting too cool? I'd be willing to bet very good money that the fancy, ridiculously expensive ARC and Moroso oil pans would still be hot to the touch after driving, just like a stock pan. I know that's certainly the case with the 7qt Canton road race pan on my Mustang, and it doesn't have an engine undertray to lock in heat in the engine bay, or hot exhaust piping wrapping around it in close proximity.

Don't get me wrong - I think a properly set up oil cooler is a great idea - but I think your logic is a bit off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
anyone have this?

http://www.teammfactory.com/products...20Cooler%20Kit

cheapest thing I've seen so far, and includes the hardware to remote locate the filter.

Key for rally, since its double protection from anything hitting the oil filter and puncturing it w/o knowing.
Seems like a decent kit, but the fact it doesn't have an oil-stat is a bit of a bummer. The oil-stat and extra fittings to plumb it into the system will add quite a bit of cost to that $400 kit. Now, if you were to use that kit and retain the factory oil-to-water cooler that goes between the oil filter and block, then you wouldn't need a separate oil-stat - the oil/coolant heat transfer will take care of that for you. The other option (as discussed in previous oil cooler threads) is to get a sandwich adapter with a built-in oil-stat. I know Mocal makes one, and you can get all of Mocal's stuff thru these guys.

Pat Olsen
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:25 AM   #16
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Justjap has a number of good value oil kits (here).
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:35 AM   #17
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In an EJ motor, what is needed from a well designed 'baffle' system would be a scraper, but in the case of our blocks that isn't actually possible. The mains prevent access to the crank to the extent that you will never get a scraper baffle up there to truly catch/control windage. Drain back is actually pretty good on these engines, and the pan is deep, so lateral starvation issues aren't a particularly big deal, well, at least as far as I have seen. The reason for our dry sump system was more for control of case vacuum, to allow direct feed oil to the turbos and to lower the engine several inches to improve CG; not that we had starvation issues, heat issues, or otherwise.


SLR-
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
What sort of baffles are you talking about? When I see a baffled oil pan, it has trap doors to keep the oil pump pickup submerged in high-g situations. It has nothing to do with reducing oil consumption at the rings or PCV and everything to do with maintaining oil pressure by ensuring the pickup is submerged all the time.


How is the oil in the pan "sitting" there, and how is it getting too cool? I'd be willing to bet very good money that the fancy, ridiculously expensive ARC and Moroso oil pans would still be hot to the touch after driving, just like a stock pan. I know that's certainly the case with the 7qt Canton road race pan on my Mustang, and it doesn't have an engine undertray to lock in heat in the engine bay, or hot exhaust piping wrapping around it in close proximity.

Don't get me wrong - I think a properly set up oil cooler is a great idea - but I think your logic is a bit off.
I think SLR caught onto the idea that our definitions of "baffles" are just a bit off. Different nomenclature. I tend to think of them as what SLR refers to as a "scraper" I believe- to keep oil from frothing up and whipping about the rotating assembly. For some reason, they are what I always think of when I hear the term "oil pan baffles". They are a type of baffle, but I gather that's not what's intended; it's just what popped into my mind for whatever odd reason.

Anyway, if the oil pan is large to help cool the oil I'm guessing that the oil will, because of this, be cooler than otherwise, no? How could it cool the oil to a temperature so much closer to ambient, like an oil cooler (and cooler oil seems to be an objective here), if it does not let the oil become cooled ... to a temperature so much closer to ambient?

And since cool oil collects more moisture, I'm afraid I don't see the hole in the logic here. I think the problem is the assumption that he has hot oil (which was his own supposition), and I'm guessing he does not, and that it probably isn't the reason for the "overheated" bearings.

Also, mind you, I'm not saying that a nice oil pan is a bad idea- indeed, it's a good one. But it shouldn't do much oil cooling, and if you found a design which did, you'd probably do your engine more harm than good.

Since we don't really have enough information about exactly what conditions caused the motor to fail, a good pan, good pump, AND good cooler, are probably all on the "to do" list. To shorten that list:

- If it was not revved past ~7,500 RPM, or over-heated: a good oil pan is the best bet.

- If it was road raced, but not past ~7,500 RPM, and not over-heated: a pan comes first, with cooler in second. (over-heated oil is often missed in race-engine failure analysis, but high-g starvation is still more likely with stock setups)

- If it was pushed past ~7,500 RPM in otherwise normal conditions: oil pump comes in first, with the next two depending on the condition of the oil. (burnt, charred, or otherwise normal with seemingly hot bearings?)

-Adrian
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:51 AM   #19
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Just installed a newly built sleeved EJ257.

Custom oil pan capacity is now 8 litres (2.22 gal), plus add to that a 19 row oil cooler with external chev small block sized external oil filter all plumbed up in AN-10 fittings and line. Probably adds an extra 1.3litres (0.36gal).

Oil pan internally baffled to control oil movement around corners.

Primary considerations were holding enough oil to ensure there was no aeration at the bottom where the oil is sucked in by the pump.
Ensure oil level didnt drop during long corners where oil may have been held in a head.
And just to keep an eye on things an oil pressure and temp gauge.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:57 PM   #20
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Do you run a heater as well, or does the circuit you race allow a bunch of test runs? ...I guess I'm interested in how long it takes you to get to peak operating temperature with so much cooling and the high volume you run; or maybe you are running an endurance program?


SLR-
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:13 PM   #21
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My car takes about 20 minutes of idle to get to 80c (176f). That's 12 quarts of oil.

Within 2 laps it's up to ~95c (203f)

On track temps yesterday I saw 130c peak (266f) - 90f air temp. Mostly I was seeing 125c (257f). From what I have been told that's not bad for track time oil temps. Anyone else want to share their on track temps. I run an oil cooler.

On a side note at the highest oil temp I still see 5.2 bar (75psi) oil pressure at 7000.
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Old 06-29-2008, 01:48 AM   #22
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With my N/A powerhouse and the factory oil-to-water cooler I, too, see about 125-130C during track use. Only 4.7qts in my case, though.

Oh, and you don't really idle for 20min do you? It's much better to get the car on track and warm it up by loading it.
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:43 PM   #23
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i frequently rev past 7500. I, on occasion, have revved to 8200. I drive hard.
This is on street and dirt/gravel.
I'm not going to a $2000+ dry/wet-sump setup. If that's what is required to keep my car running at these levels, i'll sell it and get a Honda/Toyota/Suzuki.

If a new 12mm oil pump, bigger/better oil pan, and an Oil Cooler, along with proper filters and oil (i run subaru filters and RP 10/40, changed every 2500-3500km) will keep me good for another 100,000km or so, then that is cool.

This motor has 170,000km on it (over 100,000 miles), and it has been driven VERY damn hard. Much more aggressively and carelessly than most of you would like to imagine, i'm sure.
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Old 06-29-2008, 10:05 PM   #24
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You have a 12mm oil pump. I'm so used to thinking about the USDM STi on here that I didn't even think twice about you having the EJ207 instead.

At least, I'm pretty sure you ought to already have that pump. If that's the case, good oil pan and/or baffles + oil cooler is the best bet.

If you happen to know somewhere that will DLC, or WS2, coat your rod journals for cheap, that will cut down on the heat a lot and probably increase bearing life.

Sorry for so many misunderstandings. I think I FUBAR'd my brain for a week or two.

edit: also, running a really good synthetic, like AMSoil, at the track, can save on bearings. Our old Formula Ford has been over-revved to 8K+ at least a half dozen times and, when taken apart, never had any ill effects ... and it's just an externally (no internal mods) modified 1.6L Cortina motor from the 70's/80's.

I don't like to push AMSoil on other people, but I, for one, am a firm believer that, if nothing else, they seem to have their stuff together ... and they make a good oil that does really well in high temps. Our racecar was N/A and saw oil temps that high in 110*F heat. I think a good oil like that might allow you to do without an oil cooler. But I'd still upgrade the oil pan and/or put in baffles to make sure there's no oil starvation. AMSoil just seems to do unusually well with heat.

Last edited by SaabTuner; 06-29-2008 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Extra info.
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Old 06-29-2008, 10:19 PM   #25
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thank you for the good/concise answers, and not beating around the bush.

What weight AMSoil would you reccomend for me?
My car's motor is getting completely overhauled w/ mostly factory parts, i'll be running stock boost/injectors(for now), and driving it hard. I live in Okinawa, where it is HOT and HUMID most of the time- we see nighttime (when i do most fast driving) temps in the 80's, and humidity in the 90%'s...
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