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Old 07-09-2008, 02:10 AM   #1
cubuff
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Default Turbo for 700whp 2.0!!! Help me choose...

Ok so I started a thread on my project build which can be found here.....


So at this point I have a feeling my motor is going to be able to hold a little more power than originally expected. I started out thinking that a 35r or a 37r would fulfill my original power goals of around 550-600whp but I have recently decided that since this is only going to be an every other weekend driver and track car I should aim a little higher. So here are my goals....

8500rpm redline
700whp

I will probably end up having a 6spd dogbox in the end but I will start out with an 04 6spd until I can fund my dogbox aspirations.

I have thought about an AMS GT850r, Borg warner units like s364 or s366 (there isnt a whole lot of info on these turbo's as far as power rating), garrett units like a 4088 or 4094 or 4294 or even the new FP HTA88. Keep in mind this is a 2.0 and I dont care about lag! I know there is a lot of size difference in some of these turbo's listed I am just not very confident in picking my turbo... Any input is appreciated.

I would like to keep this on topic... I have everything else figured out and im going over it with my engine builder.... I am also always looking for sponsors!!!.... Car will be built very stout and I have high goals for it. As of now I only have the tranny and engine figured out. ej207 with ported and polished v8 heads with custom grind cams ran through a 6spd with hopefully ppg gears within the first few months of its life.

So again... help me pick a turbo please!
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Old 07-09-2008, 02:21 AM   #2
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I think i saw the turbo u need on a train!!
or garrett gt-5533

Last edited by subaruNV; 07-09-2008 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 07-09-2008, 02:27 AM   #3
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I know where you can get one! Just go to a local weigh station and pop the hood on a truck and take that one. Plus NOS
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:24 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by subaruNV View Post
I think i saw the turbo u need on a train!!
or garrett gt-5533

haha... my brother has a gt5533 on his mustang. Im pretty sure that is a little large!

Any useful suggestions anyone?
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:42 AM   #5
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Call comp,precision or majestic turbo and have them build you one to your specs.
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:03 AM   #6
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The odds on you getting a sponsor are none and none, so give that dream up. You need to read the Turbo FAQ and start doing home work. Buying a turbo for 700 on a 2.0L is NOT a decision for the internet. You need to learn compressor maps, how housing size affects things, trim, etc. Then get some ideas based on the above and not shotgun turbo ideas based off of others. Follow this up by a long phone call to a turbo vendor who sells Garrett or whatever turbo maker you fancy. There is no cut and paste solution, pick a vendor and go with them.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:07 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by cubuff View Post
So here are my goals....

8500rpm redline
700whp

ej207 with ported and polished v8 heads with custom grind cams...
What's power under the curve? To me that sounds absolutely useless. I like a full powerband, but if you are comfortable with power from maybe 5800 - 8000, that's up to you.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:06 AM   #8
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so whats the point of a 700hp 2.0 build??? its hard enough to make a 700hp 2.5l build.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:04 AM   #9
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twin gt4088r (boosting 30 lbs each) lols
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:18 AM   #10
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Wow, very aggressive goal. You will need plenty of cash, a LOT of patience, and a great tuner.

As far as turbos you will need at least a 4088r, 30+ psi.
You will also need at minimum, the following:

Sleeved block, even with a closed deck
carrilo h-beams (will hold the power easily)
agressively ported heads with +1 (or maybe custom +2) valves
nothing less than the ferrea valvetrain to support the crazy rpms you will need.
Custom high lift cams to shift power to the right and take advantage of boost at high rpms.
aftermarket intake with a surge tank to flow the amount of air you will need.
a full stand-alone EM system. AEM or MoTec. AEM is wasted spark and at 9k rpm's you will need a DLI to support the ignition requirements.
since this car will in NO way be a daily driver, go with a water/air intercooler (allow more timing)
twin disk clutch (rps or tilton)
1200+cc injectors (have fun with idle)
weldon external fuel pump (i would never trust walbros to support this kind of power.

a stock 6 speed will NOT last at these levels, especially with the ON/OFF powerband this kind of build will have. I would go full dogbox 5 speed.

This is the route i would go. You are looking at $50k+ of parts and tuning.

I am sure someone (who has never built a high horsepower radical car) will chime in and say it will be a lot cheaper. But take it from someone who built a 1300 whp 3.4L supra. It takes a LOT of money to make small c.i.d. motors produce these power levels.

Good luck and keep us up to date!!
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:38 PM   #11
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The turbo is gonna be the least of your worries. Take it from me, the problem with the EJ series motors is the SEVERE lack of high rpm power. I spent years of my life trying to make it work (and thousands of dollars).

Get a 2.5 + 4088 or buy an EVO.

Then again this is just IMHO

If you figure out how to make the high rpm powa please let me know. 2 big limiting factors that have not been worked out yet for subarus is the exhaust and intake manifolds.
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Old 07-09-2008, 01:00 PM   #12
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If you figure out how to make the high rpm powa please let me know.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:52 PM   #13
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hm.. yea its would be cheaper to go the evo route! however subaru FTW!
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Old 07-10-2008, 01:00 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
The odds on you getting a sponsor are none and none, so give that dream up. You need to read the Turbo FAQ and start doing home work. Buying a turbo for 700 on a 2.0L is NOT a decision for the internet. You need to learn compressor maps, how housing size affects things, trim, etc. Then get some ideas based on the above and not shotgun turbo ideas based off of others. Follow this up by a long phone call to a turbo vendor who sells Garrett or whatever turbo maker you fancy. There is no cut and paste solution, pick a vendor and go with them.

Yeah, thats part of the problem the borg turbo maps seem too good to be true. I would predict off the maps alone that the s364 would outspool and outpower a 4088r but in the real world that seems to not be the case in a couple test that I have heard about.

The sponsor part of that was a complete joke! There is no way my car is going to be sporting the "classy" errrr... cheezy stickers. This car is 100% privately built with 100% my own money. Thanks for your response though. I started out not liking you very much at all but your smart ass remarks are starting to grow on me! other than being a FAQ whore! I mean this all in the most respectful way even it it appears to have come off wrong. You seem to know your stuff. So again thanks.

As far as the 6spd not holding and going with a 5spd...... This is not the case, the 5spd case is inferior to the 6spd case. I sold my 5spd bought a 04 6spd and plan on eventually placing ppg gears in it. No way no how am I going back to the 5spd. PPG actually recommends that if you are over 500whp that you go with a built 6spd.

So instead of a whp number I should probably bring it to an et goal. I would like to see 10.5 or below at 5280 above sea level. 35r sti cars up here with really good driving have landed 10.9. So with a built 2.0 running lower compression and the ability to run 40+ psi I am not too worried about being able to make more power.

This motor is already being built, it is not in discussion everything in it will be able to hold the power. The oiling system I have not figured out quite yet. Debating drysump or seeing what my oil pressure is like with a couple of cheaper tricks. modified pickup custom sump etc.... But that is all for another discussion and im not going to talk about it until much later on down the road.

This I guess is where I was mistaken with Subaru's these days, a couple years ago everyone was saying, "ohhhh you want 500whp.... should have bought a cobra or an evo..." now that 500whp subaru's are running around in numbers the goal has increased so we are back in the same boat. 700whp goal and again everyone is crying thinking it cant be done "should have bought an evo". $50,000 dollars in parts isnt even close. Im thinking over the course of the next year I will put $25000 in my car, if I add a dry sump probably around 28 or 29.

I am thinking I will probably get a borg warner s364 or 366 run 40psi and see what happens! Whatever numbers come out of that I will live with.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:27 AM   #15
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i will be doin the same this winter and to tell you the truth you need to look more towards a gt4094 or 102. im gonna do a 4094
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by MS WRX View Post
Wow, very aggressive goal. You will need plenty of cash, a LOT of patience, and a great tuner.

As far as turbos you will need at least a 4088r, 30+ psi.
You will also need at minimum, the following:

Sleeved block, even with a closed deck
carrilo h-beams (will hold the power easily)
agressively ported heads with +1 (or maybe custom +2) valves
nothing less than the ferrea valvetrain to support the crazy rpms you will need.
Custom high lift cams to shift power to the right and take advantage of boost at high rpms.
aftermarket intake with a surge tank to flow the amount of air you will need.
a full stand-alone EM system. AEM or MoTec. AEM is wasted spark and at 9k rpm's you will need a DLI to support the ignition requirements.
since this car will in NO way be a daily driver, go with a water/air intercooler (allow more timing)
twin disk clutch (rps or tilton)
1200+cc injectors (have fun with idle)
weldon external fuel pump (i would never trust walbros to support this kind of power.

a stock 6 speed will NOT last at these levels, especially with the ON/OFF powerband this kind of build will have. I would go full dogbox 5 speed.

This is the route i would go. You are looking at $50k+ of parts and tuning.

I am sure someone (who has never built a high horsepower radical car) will chime in and say it will be a lot cheaper. But take it from someone who built a 1300 whp 3.4L supra. It takes a LOT of money to make small c.i.d. motors produce these power levels.

Good luck and keep us up to date!!
Ive already got most of this figured out. My fuel system is already being installed. twin intank walbors feeding a surge/swirl pot I havent bought the inline pump yet but im thinking probably a weldon or an aeromotive with a controller. -8 feeding aeromotive fuel rails with injectors TBD all coming back through -6 line. I am trying to figure out another alternative for the intank feed. I had two walbros sitting in my garage so I figured put them to use. I am most concerned with the inline pump choice. I will put a low level sensor on my swirl pot im thinking to ensure the walbros are feeding the swirl pot fast enough.

I just cant see this taking $50,000 im not even close and I have the big stuff figured out already. I guess im not taking into account parts I already had. If it were to be duplicated from scratch I could easily see $50,000. Anyway thanks for the response.... Do you still have your supra?
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:32 AM   #17
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Yes, it is at titan motorsports as we speak getting some more goodies put on it.

I would really very strongly reccomend the weldon. Noisy lil ****er but i would just hat for one of your walbros to go out and you to run lean.

PLEASE make sure to use the best machine shop you can afford. Machining is the key. Especially with the rpm you are gonna need to turn. Also, have you considered a dry sump setup? It will really let you spin 9k+ without oiling becoming an issue.

I think this can be done, its just gonna take some cash and some custom fab work. It sounds like you know what you are doing though.

I love when people take on projects and push the envelope like this. It really benefits the entire community with the results.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:30 PM   #18
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It's all gonna be in figuring out how to make big horsepower at high revs. I'm seriously not joking, when you figure it out let me know.
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:22 PM   #19
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which brand dyno do you want to shoot for this horsepower number? there are drastic differences in the way they read. there is a spread of up to 20%. so... 700whp on a high reading dyno can be less than 600 on a low reading one. i see you are in colorado. what is the altitude there. that makes a big difference in power and turbo selection.

mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:30 PM   #20
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700 hp on a 2.0 ltr thats a good one!!!
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubuff View Post
Yeah, thats part of the problem the borg turbo maps seem too good to be true. I would predict off the maps alone that the s364 would outspool and outpower a 4088r but in the real world that seems to not be the case in a couple test that I have heard about.

The sponsor part of that was a complete joke! There is no way my car is going to be sporting the "classy" errrr... cheezy stickers. This car is 100% privately built with 100% my own money. Thanks for your response though. I started out not liking you very much at all but your smart ass remarks are starting to grow on me! other than being a FAQ whore! I mean this all in the most respectful way even it it appears to have come off wrong. You seem to know your stuff. So again thanks.

As far as the 6spd not holding and going with a 5spd...... This is not the case, the 5spd case is inferior to the 6spd case. I sold my 5spd bought a 04 6spd and plan on eventually placing ppg gears in it. No way no how am I going back to the 5spd. PPG actually recommends that if you are over 500whp that you go with a built 6spd.

So instead of a whp number I should probably bring it to an et goal. I would like to see 10.5 or below at 5280 above sea level. 35r sti cars up here with really good driving have landed 10.9. So with a built 2.0 running lower compression and the ability to run 40+ psi I am not too worried about being able to make more power.

This motor is already being built, it is not in discussion everything in it will be able to hold the power. The oiling system I have not figured out quite yet. Debating drysump or seeing what my oil pressure is like with a couple of cheaper tricks. modified pickup custom sump etc.... But that is all for another discussion and im not going to talk about it until much later on down the road.

This I guess is where I was mistaken with Subaru's these days, a couple years ago everyone was saying, "ohhhh you want 500whp.... should have bought a cobra or an evo..." now that 500whp subaru's are running around in numbers the goal has increased so we are back in the same boat. 700whp goal and again everyone is crying thinking it cant be done "should have bought an evo". $50,000 dollars in parts isnt even close. Im thinking over the course of the next year I will put $25000 in my car, if I add a dry sump probably around 28 or 29.

I am thinking I will probably get a borg warner s364 or 366 run 40psi and see what happens! Whatever numbers come out of that I will live with.


You might get there with a GT42R on race fuel only. But ull definately need NOS to get the thing spooled.. On a 2.5 a GT42R makes full power (28 psi) around 6000 rpm asfaik. A 4088R makes it around 4-4500rpm.

So on a 2.0ltr a GT42R will be making this boost around 6500-7000rpm. You probaly wont get much useful power until around 5000rpm but probaly in the 400 whp range.

You would also want to rev it out to around 10,000rpm to get the full benefit of such a large turbo on a small capactity engine. And that would mean upgrading springs, retainers etc etc.

Then ull have oiling issues, which a dry sump may solve..
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:02 AM   #22
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700 hp on a 2.0 ltr thats a good one!!!
haha! How about a 2.0 thats runs mid 10's! Ill send you a special PM when it happens.... This isnt a thought running through my head this is an active project. If I decide to dry sump this motor which is a great possibility I will spin to 9500-10000rpm. Then maybe ill be shooting for 9's! Again ill send you a special PM. This block will support close to 1000whp so this isnt a joke I will get it done one way or another.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by sideways7 View Post
which brand dyno do you want to shoot for this horsepower number? there are drastic differences in the way they read. there is a spread of up to 20%. so... 700whp on a high reading dyno can be less than 600 on a low reading one. i see you are in colorado. what is the altitude there. that makes a big difference in power and turbo selection.

mark
Yeah most of the dyno's here add a correction factor in. I will say for the sakes of making it a little easier I will initially shoot for the 700 on a dynojet. My other local dyno's are dyno dynamics which will make that 700whp goal nearly impossible. Like I said earlier I would rather have an et goal which is going to be 10.5 to start with.

I am at 5280ft. So its not easy up here and boost is much different. 10.5 et's here would equate to 10.2 or so at sea level.

Anyway..... I still in need of some real life turbo opinions.... I really dont want to hear anymore "haha 700whp on a 2.0 thats a good one!" I will get there one way or another so its useless to keep putting the idea down. Im building a 2.0 and there is nothing anyone can say to make me change the platform.

So I think its obvious at the minimum I will need a 4088r.... I am looking for something comparable. Would you recommend staying away from the borg units? Garrett units just seem to be more proven but maybe not as durable? I hear higher boost levels on the borg units are much more reliable running antilag etc... At any rate running 40psi out of a 4088r on a 2.0 would have a chance of sending the car 10.5's if everything else lined up. Im thinking The ppg 6spd is going to be the key component when its all said and done along with a solid suspension setup.

So 4088, 4094 or a comparable borg unit?
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:02 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xreign View Post
hm.. yea its would be cheaper to go the evo route! however subaru FTW!
Cheaper and easier to use an evo, yet subaru ftw? I love your logic


Quote:
Originally Posted by SW00P_G View Post
Get a 2.5 + 4088 or buy an EVO.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cubuff View Post

I just cant see this taking $50,000 im not even close and I have the big stuff figured out already.
for literally half that you could be running consistant 9's reliably in an evo.

flame away

Last edited by SOOBE; 07-11-2008 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 12:12 PM   #25
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I think you are very wise to consider a dry-sump. Oiling is where you really seperate the men from the boys so to speak. a 42r would be overkill as it can push 900+ when spooled and you would REALLY be lossing a LOT of powerband compared to the 40xxr units. Im not really sure where the 4088/4094 runs out of steam but i think 40psi would be pushing it. (Hell 40psi is a good bit for a 47xx unit)

Now are you wanting to make this "all-boost" so to speak (using nitorus just to spool) or would you be spraying a 100 shot or so up top?

Other ideas to consider:
Ti Long rods (help on your quest to 10k rpm)
coated EVERYTHING to help with oil shedding
the thickest wristpins you can get.

Im guessin that a 4088 on racegas at 36-ish may reach your goal.

This is an awesome thread! Nice to see someone not doing "the same ol thing"

And yes we KNOW an EVO can make a lot of power, thats not what this thread is about.
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