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Old 07-11-2008, 01:25 AM   #1
PhilSine
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Default Building an EJ22t

I have tried searching and it's a long and often fruitless endeavor so I have to bite the bullet and start asking noob'ish questions. It hasn't been totally fruitless and that will be evidenced by some of my questions.

So here goes...

I just bough a 91 Legacy Sport and will be using that car for this build so keep that in mind when it comes to EM.

My goal is 400 whp.

Here is what I plan in a rough sense and I hope some of you can add insight and experience to help me develop a plan on achieving my goal.

9:1 is my CR goal so I don't have to have to spend $1700 on a hugh turbo.
WRX heads
STi crank
STi rods
Wiseco EJ22 pistons

The engine will be completely disassembled and rebuilt using the aforementioned internals and replacement parts as appropriate (oil pump, water pump, etc)

Questions...

Can I get 400 whp on 91 octane and no meth injection? This will be a dd street car in the summers and occasional time attack or strip car.

How can I get 9:1 CR with WRX heads and EJ257 guts? Thinner headgasket? Any other way besides custom pistons? I couldn't find another producer of EJ22t pistons besides Wiseco.

So, assuming I get 9:1 CR...which turbo would be recommended?

And if I have to settle aoround 8.5:1 CR...which turbo then?

I have exhaust and intercooler etc covered I just need the engine/turbo combo that has proven effective.

Fuel pump...Walbro 255 single or are duals necessary at this point?

855 cc injectors enough or are 1000 cc's required?

Last but not least...

Which EM is the most effective for OBDI? I know that is a question that could be answered in the engine management section but I thought I'd ask here anyways since I was at it.

Without meth...should I consider an E-85 car?

This will be my first built turbo engine so please go easy on me. I know the value of waiting longer and doing things right so this build will take a long time to assemble and put all together. I have body work and suspension work to keep me busy while I earn extra money for engine stuff.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:30 AM   #2
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So then you plan on using the EJ22T ECU?

I have a WRX swap with an EJ22T shortblock and EVO3-16G-8cm^2 turbo. Car puts out 300whp and is plenty quick; 12.691@108.42mph. Plently fast, quick, drivable.

HG I'm using is one for '97-'98 Ej22E; same 3layer multi-metal HG as WRX/STi but with 2.2L bored.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:31 AM   #3
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Do the cooling ports on the EJ22E hg line up with the EJ22T block and WRX heads? If not, how do you overcome that?

Of course as I re-read I see that yo uindicated that its the same pattern.
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:34 PM   #4
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wrx heads off what ecu?

wiseco makes pistons for the ej22, oem forged replacements, and ones for a 2.35 stroker with phase I dohc heads (rs heads)

there is a plug and play EMS for the t-leg...i forget who makes it though.
i suggest you contact mike @ innovative tuning in new york..he can help you immensley.

Last edited by mxpunk; 07-14-2008 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:55 AM   #5
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if you use 257 crank you will have to machine
for thrust bearing.
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
Do the cooling ports on the EJ22E hg line up with the EJ22T block and WRX heads? If not, how do you overcome that?

Of course as I re-read I see that you indicated that its the same pattern.
All of the cooling passeages are in the SAME AREAS. The only difference is the slightly different shape of them. Even though the slightly different SHAPES, the HG is STILL the same design with the SAME HOLES. Even IF the head has LARGE cooling passeges it still has to go through the little holes on the HG.
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Old 07-15-2008, 09:40 AM   #7
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Using E85 would make reaching your goals much easier. Especially if you use the higher 9:1 compression.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:04 AM   #8
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Ive got an Autronic ECU thats nearly plug n' play for the EJ22T, I was going to use it on my own build, but decided to go another route.

Brand new, not cheap, if you're interested :P
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter View Post
Ive got an Autronic ECU thats nearly plug n' play for the EJ22T, I was going to use it on my own build, but decided to go another route.

Brand new, not cheap, if you're interested :P
I would be interested. PM me a price and we'll go from there. The budget isn't yet set and the funds are currently a bit low so it may be bad timing on my part.

For all you that have posted please continue to add info and advice. I'm subscribed to the thread for email updates so I see all that gets added and am taking it all in. I may not reply all the time but I assure you that your time taken to post will not be wasted.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post

My goal is 400 whp.

Here is what I plan in a rough sense and I hope some of you can add insight and experience to help me develop a plan on achieving my goal.

9:1 is my CR goal so I don't have to have to spend $1700 on a hugh turbo.
WRX heads
STi crank
STi rods
Wiseco EJ22 pistons
9.1 cr is a good goal but if you dont want to get a huge turbo than you will need a good head port, oversized valves, with stock cams and about 10.1 compression. youll have to get custom pistons anyway because with the size of the head pockets youll be sitting at about 8.1 instead of 8:5.1 with off the shelf wiseco pistons. so custom pistons, 10.1 compresion.

as for the crank, as has been mentioned you have to have the bearings machined for the block. 48mm vs a 52mm and rear thrust vs center. not worth it imo and your cutting corrners for 400whp. get forged rods (cunningham or whatever you can get your hands on instead and use a treated 2.5rs crank)

Quote:
The engine will be completely disassembled and rebuilt using the aforementioned internals and replacement parts as appropriate (oil pump, water pump, etc)
good.

Quote:
Questions...

Can I get 400 whp on 91 octane and no meth injection? This will be a dd street car in the summers and occasional time attack or strip car.
with the right turbo and good head porting it is. you need your motor to breathe with the efficenicy of a honda to achive 400 on 91 in a subaru. mostly 400 is on the bleeding edge of what 91 octane fuel can support.

Quote:
How can I get 9:1 CR with WRX heads and EJ257 guts? Thinner headgasket? Any other way besides custom pistons? I couldn't find another producer of EJ22t pistons besides Wiseco.
custom pistons if you dont want to cheat yourself. as i said above, you wont even be able to use the 257 guts if you dont machine out the block. the wiseco setup is very spesfic as to which heads it goes between and which crank and rods

Quote:

So, assuming I get 9:1 CR...which turbo would be recommended?
cr shouldnt detirmine what turbo you use. power curve needs, rev range, head flow, headers, and user prefrence should help you decide.
Quote:
And if I have to settle aoround 8.5:1 CR...which turbo then?
see above.

if you build the head and oiling system you should be able to rev it out and therfore something in the range of gt28rs or 35r you can get 35r's new for 1,350 plus tax in most cases. these will be garrett centers with custom housings.

Quote:
I have exhaust and intercooler etc covered I just need the engine/turbo combo that has proven effective.
theres so much more to building an engine than engine and turbo combos. itercoolers make a big difference as well.
Quote:
Fuel pump...Walbro 255 single or are duals necessary at this point?
not nessary but recomended

Quote:
855 cc injectors enough or are 1000 cc's required?
855 should be more than enough for 400.
Quote:
Last but not least...

Which EM is the most effective for OBDI? I know that is a question that could be answered in the engine management section but I thought I'd ask here anyways since I was at it.
any sandalone that utilizes a flying lead harness. aem autronic or motec. obd1 just means less electronic emmissions monitering.

you will need to decide first off what ignition you will use, coil on plug or wasted spark. the reason you cant use a plug and play is because your cam triggers will be different on the wrx heads. you can use the ss cam gears to keep the same trigger but you have to get the gear machined with the key in the correct position as well as the correct size to properly time the gear with the motor. crank trigger should be the same.

Quote:

Without meth...should I consider an E-85 car?

This will be my first built turbo engine so please go easy on me. I know the value of waiting longer and doing things right so this build will take a long time to assemble and put all together. I have body work and suspension work to keep me busy while I earn extra money for engine stuff.
e85 has a higher power threshold than 91. but is less efficient. therefore at the very least you will spend 2500 dollars fitting your car up to use it. you will need at the least 1000cc injectors with e85 if not bigger. as well as a 2000hp rated pump (rating on 5.75 bore v8 drag car) as well as -8an high pressure teflon steel braided fuel line to protect against corrosion. your old fuel system will be eaten up in short order by the fuel.

if your target power level is just 400 you should be able to do it as long as you take the time to carefully build up the efficency of your motor to be able to produce that power on pump fuel. a twin scroll turbo setup will help you with this, as well as a heavily ported intake manifold and tgv deletes.


and just in case you wanted the sort answer...keep the motor stock, run a 35r, meth, standalone and about 26 psi of boost and take bets on weather your trans or motor blows up first
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
e85 has a higher power threshold than 91. but is less efficient. therefore at the very least you will spend 2500 dollars fitting your car up to use it. you will need at the least 1000cc injectors with e85 if not bigger. as well as a 2000hp rated pump (rating on 5.75 bore v8 drag car) as well as -8an high pressure teflon steel braided fuel line to protect against corrosion. your old fuel system will be eaten up in short order by the fuel.
E85 is more effecient than gasoline that is why it will produce more power.
You won't need to spend any where near $2500 on the fuel system.
Yes you should go with the 1000 cc/min injectors if you ever anticipate going over 400 hp, the 855 cc/min injectors would be good up to just over 400 hp, but will not give you much breathing space if you decide to go to higher power levels.
No you won't need a 2000hp pump, a walbro 255l/hr will do just fine at 400 hp.
You won't need -8AN lines, stock size fuel lines will flow enough fuel to feed the injectors, although the AN lines are pretty they are not necessary, corrosion is not a problem with the Subaru fuel system. Buy some new EFI rated fuel hose and stick with the stock hard lines, until your talking about 500+ hp, the stock 8mm hardline is good up to about 600 hp max.

Read through the E85 FAQ in the engine management and tuning forum to see what you need to run E85, and what others are doing with it.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 07-16-2008 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:03 PM   #12
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phil, ever thought about implementing another emanage ultimate into this project?? it may be a viable option..maybe.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
E85 is more effecient than gasoline that is why it will produce more power.
You won't need to spend any where near $2500 on the fuel system.
Yes you should go with the 1000 cc/min injectors if you ever anticipate going over 400 hp, the 855 cc/min injectors would be good up to just over 400 hp, but will not give you much breathing space if you decide to go to higher power levels.
No you won't need a 2000hp pump, a walbro 255l/hr will do just fine at 400 hp.
You won't need -8AN lines, stock size fuel lines will flow enough fuel to feed the injectors, although the AN lines are pretty they are not necessary, corrosion is not a problem with the Subaru fuel system. Buy some new EFI rated fuel hose and stick with the stock hard lines, until your talking about 500+ hp, the stock 8mm hardline is good up to about 600 hp max.

Read through the E85 FAQ in the engine management and tuning forum to see what you need to run E85, and what others are doing with it.

Larry


if e85 was more efficient than regular fuel than you would use only need 650cc injectors instead of 1000. this is the same reason why race fuel will lower your idc because it unlike ethanol is more efficent than pump. theres a huge difference in power threshold and efficency. you keep spouting that misinformation there larry.

either way he isnt using a new car, hes using a car that is over 15 years old. there will be a high possibility of line failure. a 255 could work but you have a potential to loose pressure on boost with 1000 cc injectors and stock sized fuel line wont flow the amount of ethanol nessary. much like airflow dynamics for boost and exhaust you cant have flow restrictions for your fuel either.


op, if your into cutting corrers, listen to hotrod and his ideas that subarus break all the rules when it comes to how air and fuel come together to make power.

next up, how ej257's run on bio diesel without modification
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:42 PM   #14
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teh easiest route MIGHT be an ej205 swap, ej257 hybrid with 2.0 heads and a fpgreen or dom3 turbo & maybe cams.
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Old 07-16-2008, 04:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
if e85 was more efficient than regular fuel than you would use only need 650cc injectors instead of 1000. this is the same reason why race fuel will lower your idc because it unlike ethanol is more efficent than pump. theres a huge difference in power threshold and efficency. you keep spouting that misinformation there larry.

either way he isnt using a new car, hes using a car that is over 15 years old. there will be a high possibility of line failure. a 255 could work but you have a potential to loose pressure on boost with 1000 cc injectors and stock sized fuel line wont flow the amount of ethanol nessary. much like airflow dynamics for boost and exhaust you cant have flow restrictions for your fuel either.
Misinformation --- so how many years have you been using E85 and how many thousand miles of its use do you have under your belt in a Subaru?

I have over 5 years running E85 in 3 Subaru's, a 2002 WRX, an 86 GL-10 turbo and an 88 GL, with over 50,000 miles on the three cars with E85 and e85 blends. The 88, and 86 run just fine on low blends with no changes, have never had a problem on their 22 year old fuel systems, and so do several other cars the same vintage as his, running on E85 with minimal changes.

There are lots of definitions for efficiency, you are obviously confusing volumetric energy content of the fuel with efficiency. E85 will make more power than gasoline -- period-- no debate on this! You can't even come close to E85 with a fuel that costs less than $8-$10 a gallon. We have guys running 35-38 psi boost on E85 with no knock. E85 will produce more torque and more hp, and do it on less fuel energy --- that is efficiency ----- energy in / useful energy out. My car uses 72% of the fuel energy to go a mile on E85 as it does on gasoline.

A 255l/hr walbro will flow enough fuel through the stock fuel lines to make 600 hp, then you need to do double pumps. We have several cars running that pump and putting between 400 - 500 hp to the wheels on E85.



Larry
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
teh easiest route MIGHT be an ej205 swap, ej257 hybrid with 2.0 heads and a fpgreen or dom3 turbo & maybe cams.
You're just saying that in the hopes I say "He's right" and then offer to sell you my EJ22T block.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:01 PM   #17
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phil, ever thought about implementing another emanage ultimate into this project?? it may be a viable option..maybe.
I am considering it.

I know many will slam the E-Manage Ultimate but I know it well and am willing to give it a shot. It can do everything I need in terms of altering fuel trims and pull timing. The cool thing is that if it doesn't turn out to suit my needs I can de-install it and sell it for what I bought it for assuming I find one used like my first one was.

Also, to make the EMU do its job properly you need a WB02 and aftermarket MAP sensor anyways just as I'd need for any stand alone unit so that money wouldn't be wasted.

I'll contact Greddy and get their input. I haven't blown up my 98 OBS-T with the EMU yet but then again I'm not asking that car to boost 30 psi and make 400 whp either.

I'm not trying to cut any corners and if I were to cut a corner it wouldn't be in the area of engine management. If I didn't know the EMU so well I wouldn't even consider it. It might be worth a shot to see what it can do before I mod the internals. If I can get that engine to boost 20-25 psi on stock internals then I know I could go much further with a more aggressive build.

It will be a fun expirement.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
You're just saying that in the hopes I say "He's right" and then offer to sell you my EJ22T block.
blaa ej22ts arent needed unless you plan on running omega boost..

i can get one from my relative if i want
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:50 AM   #19
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As far as E85 fueling goes, I felt that more than 400hp was going to be pushing the stock fuel lines and a Walbro 255 on E85. At 25 psi of boost, a Walbro will start to loose quite a bit of flow. I'm instead using a Walbro to feed a surge tank and using that to feed a Bosch 044 (because I autocross, otherwise I would have mounted it in-tank.) I'll run 8AN to the rails and I'm pairing up the stock lines for the return. It'll be enough fuel for 700hp on gas or 500 on E85. I'm not planning on making much more than 400-450 hp, but I wanted some headroom for future mods. I've managed to get great deals on most of the parts including used Aeromotive rails and regulator, a new high-flow stainless mesh fuel filter off ebay, and the GENUINE Bosch 044 pump for only $199 shipped. I'll have additional cost in lines and fittings, but the total will be well under $2500!
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Old 07-17-2008, 03:28 PM   #20
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blaa ej22ts arent needed unless you plan on running omega boost..

i can get one from my relative if i want
lol @ people thinking ej22ts are some amazing super rare find. I have no less than 3 ej22t blocks (no, Im not selling them), and 1 closed deck ej20g (no, not selling it either)

They're not hard to find.

Nevertheless, they ARE a good motor. Are they necessary for 300-500whp? No, not really. But it's cheap insurance. Plus it's going to be torquier than most 2.0Ls, with some neat stuff that'll let you run advanced timing (even more torque!) like piston squirters, as long as you're not planning on running super high rpm.

They're not the best block ever tho.
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Old 07-17-2008, 06:53 PM   #21
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They're not the best block ever tho.
well.....they have to be good in a way or something because SHOPS use them for the BIG BORE stuff. They ARE THE BASE for BIG BORE power.

What I've noticed are that the early EJ257's block look flakey. The newer blocks seem to look better in quality. Look at an EJ22T block and a EJ257 and you know which one looks denser. But yes the newer are a better quality from what I've heard.
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Old 07-17-2008, 11:55 PM   #22
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tbh I've never had an EJ257 apart, all I've worked on are EJ22Ts, EJ20Gs and whatever the V4 EJ20 was. The V4 EJ20 was by far the crappiest block.

I'm currently pushing around 360chp/380ctq out of an EJ22T with stock crank, stock rods, wiseco pistons, stock headgaskets and modified 98 RS heads.

I think people tend to overbuild their engines, and introduce variables that can make things go wrong that never should have.

Here is my path to 350whp/400wtq, I've got my dyno tuning booked for August 5th, so I'll let you know how it goes, but this is relevant for your interests

EJ22T bottom end w/wiseco pistons and otherwise stock internals, 25RS heads, frontmount, a 20G and supporting mods.

But, the single most important thing in my opinion is a standalone.

My buddy had a better swap in his RS, he had a V7 and I had a V4 (before my current engine), but I had a standalone and he had a piggyback, and I made like 30more hp

I run 94 octane, and I'll probably be running water injection. Will you be able to hit 400whp on 91 octane with no meth? I couldnt tell you, but I doubt it. Depends on the dyno I guess.
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Old 07-18-2008, 10:34 AM   #23
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<---- 400whp/475wtq@25psi, coming soon!!
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Old 07-18-2008, 08:05 PM   #24
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When you get it up and running, please do a write-up and link us to the post.
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Old 07-19-2008, 02:28 AM   #25
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Subscribed, Keep us posted on your progress!
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Motor noob...Q's about an EJ22T build Scooby921 Built Motor Discussion 9 06-17-2008 02:25 AM
What if I were to slowly build an EJ22t? burtonsnowman Pre-2002 Factory Turbo Powertrain 34 05-15-2008 09:27 PM
anyone know alot about building an EJ22T? kc_tap1 Pre-2002 Factory Turbo Powertrain 4 07-20-2006 12:02 AM
Who would I contact near the west coast regarding building/installing an ej22t for me ciper Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 6 03-02-2003 06:30 PM


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