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Old 07-22-2008, 05:20 PM   #1
PERRINJeff
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Default PERRIN 2008 WRX Stage 2 Results, and we prove our intake!

Full story can be found HERE on our Site..

PERRIN 08 WRX Test and Tune Stage 2,3 and intake

We left our rather boring but tuned 08 WRX much faster than it started out but it was dying to get more power. While we were the first to tune the 08 WRX using an AP (not to mention first to tune an 08 WRX period with the Hydra) it was early enough in our development that we didn't have an exhaust to install and do further tuning. Now we do and now was a good time to show off the HP results.

First off we left the WRX in Stage 1 tune. This was only with an ECU tune. We showed you the Cobb base map compared to our Tuned 93 octane map and the stock HP we found.



Before we get too much further, we needed to do a a few base run to get a good baseline since we last left the car. At this point we would be only running our maps we give out with our AccessPORT we sell. This would represent exactly what customers should expect to see on their own cars.

CATBACK Back to Back

After the base runs, we would be installing our catback exhaust first, then downpipes after that. Both would be initially ran with the same Stage 1 mapping, the after the downpipes were installed, our Stage 2 mapping would be installed.

To ensure accurate and consistent results were had, we made sure the runs were started at the same coolant temps each time, and same with air temps. But there is one huge flaw we found with the stock intake. I know everyone claims this is the best intake to have but I beg to differ! More on this later.

Onto the test..., well not quite. During our open house we did a custom tune on a Stage 2 WRX with our Stage 2 map. This car with a custom tune made 320ft-lbs and 230WHP. This was also on a very hot day. So we will see how this stacks up with our own results on our sedan.

Our first runs backed up our previous results (or pretty close) so it was time to throw on the Catback exhaust. With some gloves and with a little bit of prepping( removing a few unnecessary hangers) the system was swapped in about 10 minutes. Results were ok, and as expected almost 10WHP. That seems to hold true on pretty much all the Subarus we have dynoed so far.



DOWNPIPE TIME!

From there it was time to install the downpipes along with the catback. Again, we did this as quickly as we could and with thick gloves! About 15 minutes later, both front and read downpipes were installed and the car was idling. 15minutes is fast but we had prepred the downpipe and heat shield so it would come off much easier.

First run with a cold header was very surprising. Besides there being more HP the one thing that stuck out was how much boost the car started at. With the dyno holding 2000 as our launch RPM, we were seeing 12-13PSI of boost. This is compared to the 7psi the was seeing in Stage 1 form. Of course this better boost response made for more Torque and Power!



The additional boost and power shown here was with the same Stage 1 ECU tuning as the last 2 runs (Stage 1 run, and Catback run). The low end power is where this thing really rocks. The best part is this is a legal replacement downpipe and the car is still very mellow sounding. The catback exhaust did make some power, but more sound than power. The downpipes on the other hand make power with no sound change!



With these great gains, it was time to load out Stage 2 mapping and do a few more runs.



The blue line shows the power gained after the Stage 2 ECU tuning was done. Again even more, low end power and some more top end power. We are getting close to hitting STI stock Wheel HP levels, but with a lot more Torque! Yes we gained an additional 10WHP over the DP results but its getting obvious that top end is not this cars strength.

Comparing Stage 1 (stock car with tune) with Stage 2 (turboback installed and tune), Stage 2 nets an additional 40ft-lbs of peak torque and 20 peak WHP. With Stage 2 dialed it was time to do some intake test and tuning. At this point we already know that the new intake doesn't replicate the stock MAF curve perfectly. We have been working on a PERRIN specific intake map for quite some time on the STI and it was time to put it to the test on the WRX.



Then if we compare Stock Vs. Stage 2 we really see a huge gain! For roughly $2000 in parts, you also can have these gains! For a few hundered more dollars you can add a few more poines as shown below.

Intake HP Results

Because there is ECU tuning required on this intake, this does add a variable to how much power the intake actually makes. Our goal was simple, make the Air Fuel Ratio match the last few runs on the Stage 2 map. With the MAF curve dialed and the Air Fuel Ratio dialed we felt comfortable (because we are not pulling a fast one changing other parameters) showing the results below. While the below results are legit, if we did this on a bone stock car you can expect significantly bigger gains. The intake system changes the MAF curve by making it read less air. This not only leans out the engine, but also add timing because of how the internal maps work. Its roughly .7AFR leaner. On a stock tune this is just fine as they are so detuned! We are bringing this up because we fell its important for customers to understand how and why its NOT ok to just throw on the intake on a car with any ECU tuing done. Oh and here are the results!



Yes the timing the car runs, and the Air Fuel Ratio is the same from run to run. Its not huge but add this to a few other small parts and its something you will notice. The intake does add some cool turbo sucking sounds along with some BOV sounds!

The first things people are going to say is,"Ya but what were the intake temps?". The intake temps is what everyone claims is a huge issue with intakes. They are not just making this up but you have to understand why it normally is a problem, how it can be fixed, and why its not a problem on the 08 PERRIN intake.

If the temps go above a certain point, the ECU pulls timing, and bye bye power. Well everyone says their stock intake is the best at consistent temps, but I say NO, not on the 08 cars! What we found is the intake temps on the stock intake system started out cool, but after a few runs, the temps would climb, and climb and climb, and never cool off. It seems like the plastic, is ok at first, but over time gets heat soaked and never cools off and there is no way to cool it off quickly.

With our PERRIN intake on the 08 WRX being only a cold air intake, that puts the filter down in the fender well, the temps would be very close to ambient temps. During runs they were, but like the stock intake, they did go up during the runs(might have been because of the lack of fans blowing over the passenger side of the car) but not quite as much. The most important thing is how quickly it cooled back down. Within 30 seconds it was back to a normal temp (under 90F), were the stock plastic airbox would be holding 120 degrees and not drop at all. So what intake would you want on your car?

To help with the intakes causing a loss in power, we have taken it a step beyond making it a cold air intake. We have modded all of our newer maps so that when the intake air temps go up, the timing doesn't get pulled. In stock form timing can be pulled as much as 3 degrees (which can mean 20ft-lbs or more of TQ loss). We have proven that changing this map doesn't affect overall performance (except for the better) and provides more consistent runs, and overall more power! Another great benefit of the PERRIN custom maps!

INTERCOOLER Testing

One last test is Stage 3. Stage 3 is the same as Stage 2 but add a larger intercooler (either Top mounted or Front mounted). For this test we would throw on our PERRIN TMIC. With no tuning done the AFR's got a little richer (should as its cooler denser air) and the power went up! Between the cooler charge the and less restrictive core, it gained some power. We did some further tuning for the Stage 3 setup, but we needed more time to do more testing. But below are the results .

[IMG]hhttp://blog.perrinperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/dyno_intercooler_stage2perrinintakevstmic-550x412.jpg[/IMG]

The midrange power is pretty good, but notice one thing at 2000 RPM, the TQ is about 30ft-lbs more! This is because the core is allowing even more boost at launch. The extra PSI or 2 here and the cooler charge makes it a worthy mod. Don't forget this is with no ECU tuning. After we did some playing we did get about 10-15ft lbs of torque and 10WHP more, but its needs more proving before that graph goes up.

Conclusion.


That's simple, Stage 2 with make about 100ft-lbs of torque and 40WHP over stock. You better hope Subaru build that tranny better than the 02 WRX!
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Last edited by PERRINJeff; 10-24-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:31 PM   #2
caracer22
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^^^ Nice Thanks for the update!!!

(Finally)

Quote:
To help with the intakes causing a loss in power, we have taken it a step beyond making it a cold air intake. We have modded all of our newer maps so that when the intake air temps go up, the timing doesn't get pulled.

How Can we tell if we have the new modded map?

Last edited by caracer22; 07-22-2008 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:36 PM   #3
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I know, i know, finally, you can give me crap all you want, i deserve it!
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:38 PM   #4
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nice write up.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:17 PM   #5
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great thread Jeff. There's been a long debate on www.legacygt.com about the benefits of a bigger TMIC. This is the first objective test I've seen. BTW, love my Perrin TMIC on my LGT.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:51 PM   #6
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Awesome! Good idea about the LGT stuff. The data would pertain to the LGT in many ways even though its turbo is a little bigger.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:58 AM   #7
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That's all I needed to see. Unfortunately I was expecting to see 240ish WHP with just a turboback and tune.

Time to get to work on a turbo upgrade.

Nice write up, but the gains aren't that significant for the cost of a turboback, intake, intercooler, and map. May as well just add an extra $600-800 for a new turbo and then really be off to the races!

It sucks how this little turbo has absolutely NOTHING up at the top.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxcart View Post
That's all I needed to see. Unfortunately I was expecting to see 240ish WHP with just a turboback and tune.

Time to get to work on a turbo upgrade.

Nice write up, but the gains aren't that significant for the cost of a turboback, intake, intercooler, and map. May as well just add an extra $600-800 for a new turbo and then really be off to the races!

It sucks how this little turbo has absolutely NOTHING up at the top.
I think you are missing the point a bit. That is HUGE gain for those items on this car. "Just" adding a turbo will result in other issues if you don't already have airflow mods to go with it like included in the kit above.

I agree a turbo will help, but then you should upgrade, fuel pumps, injectors, inlet hose, etc. etc. etc.

Jeff and I would be happy to help you with your build if we can! Let us know how as well as you will see turbo added results in coming months as well.



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Old 07-23-2008, 10:09 AM   #9
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good work Jeff. Thanks for sharing again.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:13 AM   #10
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givin the same conditions as their original STG1 results (probally cooler conditions then) we would have seen 250hp... originally STG1 netted 226hp this time STG2 netted 228HP which is an average gain of 30 to 40HP over STG1, because under the current condition STG1 only got them around 200HP peak.

Last edited by caracer22; 07-23-2008 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 12:52 PM   #11
Oxcart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrin View Post
I think you are missing the point a bit. That is HUGE gain for those items on this car. "Just" adding a turbo will result in other issues if you don't already have airflow mods to go with it like included in the kit above.

I agree a turbo will help, but then you should upgrade, fuel pumps, injectors, inlet hose, etc. etc. etc.

Jeff and I would be happy to help you with your build if we can! Let us know how as well as you will see turbo added results in coming months as well.


ADAM TAFT
************************************


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PERRIN Performance™
503.693.1702 Ex. 110
WWW.PERRINPERFORMANCE.COM
WebsiteBlogMyspaceE-mailAIM
************************************
Well, no I do see the gains there. But I don't see the cost-performance-ratio benefit for doing it. By that I mean just a simple stage 1 reflash will pump out 225ish WHP and net about 300lb-ft of torque.

To reiterate, this isn't a knock against you guys...

But all I see is another 28 foot pounds of torque around 3000rpm. The car simply does NOT need another bump @ 3000rpm. Sure it will help in the 0-60 more so than in a 1/4 mile, but its also going to place further STRAIN on the transmission which isn't exactly bullet proof as many already know.

The torque/power curve DESPERATELY needs to be moved further to the right. The car already has great low end muscle and it has absolutely NOTHING once you start getting past 4500rpms and then it falls flat on its face the further north you send the RPMs.

I don't see any fiscal sense at all in doing *just* an intake, TMIC, DP, and catback. Once you have all that bolted on and the tuned (about $100 for the stage 2 map??) you have spent well over $2000.00. That's the entire point I'm making.

Let's see: AP = $700 ; TMIC = $800 ; Intake = $200 ; BPV = $180 ; DP = $400 ; Catback = $800 for the hatch and $1000 for the sedan.

The grand sum of all that is $3280. The car itself is about $24,000 (base trim). So now you're looking at spending about $28,000+ and that's not even considering new tires as the stock 205's are pathetic looking on the car.

If you're going to spend that much money to get something like 240whp when the car dyno's @ 200-210 in stock trim... And the Stg1 puts out about 225whp... There's no logic in doing *just* this stage 3 as for another $800 dollars you can be pushing out 300 + or - WHP.

There's absolutely no way a sane person should do just this stage 3. Its too much money for the gains. More importantly how the hell is the transmission going to hold up with 328ft-lbs shocking the gears day in and day out?? This does bode well for the transmission.

This car needs a bigger turbo that doesn't hit so hard way down at the bottom but instead spools a little slower and pushes out the peak torque further to the right on the graph.

If you guys want to make it interesting, in all seriousness, how about adding meth to the equation and tuning the curve down a little so you're not slamming the transmission at 3000rpms but instead moving it further to the right.

Additionally, I think this Stg3 proves that the stock exhaust on these 08's is not the bottleneck on power people think it is. Sure the exhaust isn't great and there are gains to be had by going aftermarket; but the true strangle on power is this cars TINY td04.

Time to go 18G.

Last edited by Oxcart; 07-23-2008 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:13 PM   #12
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Can you explain why you think that moving the torque around on the RPM scale effects how well the transmission will hold up?

I don't really see there being a difference having it at 3,000rpm vs 3,500rpm, the gears still see the same amount of force. Maybe more gradual, but really... Not much of a difference.

If you're driving the car hard, moving the torque to the right may actually cause more strain, as you're shifting the car right into peak torque area with every shift. I'm not an expert by any means, so maybe someone else can chime in on this

Also, these gears (The same as the LGT gears), are holding up fine on Legacy's with 20g's, Greens, etc. Take a look on the LGT forums, you see very few "HELP BROKEN TRANNY" posts, compared to the WRX forums at least. It all depends on the driver I suppose.
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyni View Post
Can you explain why you think that moving the torque around on the RPM scale effects how well the transmission will hold up?

I don't really see there being a difference having it at 3,000rpm vs 3,500rpm, the gears still see the same amount of force. Maybe more gradual, but really... Not much of a difference.

If you're driving the car hard, moving the torque to the right may actually cause more strain, as you're shifting the car right into peak torque area with every shift. I'm not an expert by any means, so maybe someone else can chime in on this

Also, these gears (The same as the LGT gears), are holding up fine on Legacy's with 20g's, Greens, etc. Take a look on the LGT forums, you see very few "HELP BROKEN TRANNY" posts, compared to the WRX forums at least. It all depends on the driver I suppose.
Well it all hinges on the equation, F = M A. The larger a value of "A" the more shock the gears are subjected to. Its simple physics... Remember the equation from University Physics 1, (M V^2)/R for rotational masses?
That is vitally important for spinning gears.

While this is very simplified example, it is something which many on this site have seen. There was an episode of Myth Busters in which Adam and Jamie were exploring the myth of CDs exploding because of being spun to fast. Turns out the myth is true and the more accelleration imparted to the CDs that they did in fact "explode". The physics is the same regardless of CDs or transmissions. Also I have seen more than a couple people posting with issues about their clutch failing while just running around with stock cars. Adding damned near 90 foot pounds of torque.... well, I have to wonder about the clutch.

And there is one case that I know of there the tranny on 08 blew: Al tuned some guy's WRX to 400whp and not long thereafter the transmission exploded. There are indeed people on the Legacy forums fighting battles with Subaru for transmissions that "grenade" themselves. Our gears are not made out of depleted uranium after all; hell I don't even know how our gears are made.

LGTs aren't bullet proof either. I'd wager that given time when people start upgrading more and more of the 08's that we will all start seeing posts about blowing transmissions here as well. One must also keep in mind that with the Legacy's there have not been very many options as there have been with WRX's for upgrading turbochargers and therefore the number of Legacy's blowing transmissions have logically not been as many with WRX's. Also most people who buy Legacy's don't buy them to mod them as like with the WRX. You just have a case of smaller numbers in the Legacy crowd.

Anyway, my points are valid: the cost to benefit ratio of the Stg3 is not there, and the transmission is going to be the weak link with these kinds of dyno graphs.

I still love my car, though I am going to start setting up for an 18G w/meth and a new clutch.

Last edited by Oxcart; 07-23-2008 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:53 PM   #14
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Thanks for the update.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxcart View Post
The torque/power curve DESPERATELY needs to be moved further to the right. The car already has great low end muscle and it has absolutely NOTHING once you start getting past 4500rpms and then it falls flat on its face the further north you send the RPMs.
There's only one solution to that- a bigger turbo. It's simply not possible to just "shift the torque" to the right. Perhaps a little bit with AVCS tuning, but not by much. The only answer would be to reduce boost at lower RPM's to lower the torque, and that's probably a good idea.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:59 PM   #16
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I'm with Oxcart on Stg1 being a good start, and Stg2 while laying the foundation for more mods, is just OK. We need some turbo options( Ultimate's 18G) that reduce the dramatic and short lived torque peak of the TD04,, helping the clutch/tranny, and hold boost so we have power out to 6-7000 RPM.
I drove a Mazdaspeed 3 recently and was impressed by how much power it had at the top end. Going 70 in 6th and going WOT you get pushed back into the seat and see 90 quickly. My test of a WRX 5dr showed how little the TD04 has past 4500, feeble acceleration and disappointment. My Stg2 06 WRX had good pull in 5th but not MS3 balls. I wonder why the 08s seem to have less power past 4500 than 06/07s with same turbo and similar TMIC? Even tuned by Perrin the 08 TD04 seems to show its weakness above 4500, just look at the plunge on all the dyno graphs!
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remowgn View Post
There's only one solution to that- a bigger turbo. It's simply not possible to just "shift the torque" to the right. Perhaps a little bit with AVCS tuning, but not by much. The only answer would be to reduce boost at lower RPM's to lower the torque, and that's probably a good idea.
take away boost! nah the car feels great, and theres no need to redline it. i shift at 5500-6000 and it drops right back into the power, i dont currently have any complaints...
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by caracer22 View Post
givin the same conditions as their original STG1 results (probally cooler conditions then) we would have seen 250hp... originally STG1 netted 226hp this time STG2 netted 228HP which is an average gain of 30 to 40HP over STG1, because under the current condition STG1 only got them around 200HP peak.
Good point, it was much hotter for the Stage 2 versus Stage 1. That might be 10HP or so difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxcart View Post
Well, no I do see the gains there. But I don't see the cost-performance-ratio benefit for doing it. By that I mean just a simple stage 1 reflash will pump out 225ish WHP and net about 300lb-ft of torque.
To reiterate, this isn't a knock against you guys................

Lots of stuff missing here from Oxcart's post.

..........................................Addition ally, I think this Stg3 proves that the stock exhaust on these 08's is not the bottleneck on power people think it is. Sure the exhaust isn't great and there are gains to be had by going aftermarket; but the true strangle on power is this cars TINY td04.

Time to go 18G.
Lots of good thoughts and opinions for sure. I do see what you are saying, but keep in mind that TQ is going to go away down low and move closer to the midrange. Also don't forget you still need that exhaust for a turbo to really work good.

You say that Stg3 proves the stock exhaus is OK. No Stage 3 proves that the IC isn't being used to its full potential as the turbo just isn't pushing much air and using the higher flowing IC.

I didn't put up the Stage 1 vs Stage 2, but Stage 2 gains about 40ft-lbs over stock at 3000RPM and 20WHP almost everywhere. Which is very good. And if you are saying that isn't worth it, but since we are supplying our special maps with those parts, it really is. The parts are items you should have anyway with a bigger turbo.

But i do see your point that "just get a turbo" is cheaper. It kind of is because you spend $800 on the turbo, and call it good. But in my mind i would trade turbo for intercooler, but i would never trade turbo for the downpipes. This is a proven gainer and for sure necessary.

Don't forget, we put up those numbers to show off parts, not necessarily say this is the best pathway to building your WRX. In fact, while Stage 3 does mean intercooler, i would almost change it to a Blouch 16G or 18G (yes we are selling those now!). Then do the intercooler! I think the best path is DP, CB, AP (in any order) then consider if you want alot more power or a little. If you know you want more and are willing to loose some low end, do the turbo! IF you want a little more do the intake and maybe Intercooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyni View Post
Can you explain why you think that moving the torque around on the RPM scale effects how well the transmission will hold up?

I don't really see there being a difference having it at 3,000rpm vs 3,500rpm, the gears still see the same amount of force. Maybe more gradual, but really... Not much of a difference.
If you're driving the car hard, moving the torque to the right may actually cause more strain, as you're shifting the car right into peak torque area with every shift. I'm not an expert by any means, so maybe someone else can chime in on this
Also, these gears (The same as the LGT gears), are holding up fine on Legacy's with 20g's, Greens, etc. Take a look on the LGT forums, you see very few "HELP BROKEN TRANNY" posts, compared to the WRX forums at least. It all depends on the driver I suppose.
I agree our 08 WRX with 360-380WHP (different tunes at different times) track time, lots of daily driving and what not, they still are doing just fine. This is with no drag racing though.

In the end, someones power needs are always going to very. I didn't care about TQ for a long time, i just wanted power. THEn the H6 came along and now that is all i want. So much so that our 08 STI has..............never mind thats for another post.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:24 PM   #19
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You're selling the '08 fitment Turbo's now?
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:06 PM   #20
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We are working Blouch and will be, actually can, offer any of their turbos. I just talked to them and they do not have one yet. But soon!

We do sell our FMIC to fit the 08 WRX turbo, but we also include the extra coupler to allow it to work with an STI turbo. So with that you could do almost any turbo in the world!
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:19 PM   #21
remowgn
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So much so that our 08 STI has..............never mind thats for another post.
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:39 PM   #22
JackHammer
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We have modded all of our newer maps so that when the intake air temps go up, the timing doesn't get pulled. In stock form timing can be pulled as much as 3 degrees (which can mean 20ft-lbs or more of TQ loss).
The bigger question is, with a heatsoaked tmic and this new "modded" map.........what are you gonna do when your maps start breaking pistons because these cars have 3 more degree's of timing?

with a fmic, by all means go for it.........with a tmic, even you guys know you're playing with fire.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:36 PM   #23
tux121
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Now let's change the up-pipe and exhaust manifold to see those gains individually. I liked this testing.
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:53 PM   #24
PERRIN
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The bigger question is, with a heatsoaked tmic and this new "modded" map.........what are you gonna do when your maps start breaking pistons because these cars have 3 more degree's of timing?

with a fmic, by all means go for it.........with a tmic, even you guys know you're playing with fire.
We have proven the maps, double checked the timing, etc. etc. We do push things, but still include a margin of safety. we would NOT be comfortable with making a map that would damage a clients car. PERIOD.

Adam
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:00 PM   #25
lateralus1082
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is this Flywheel HP or to the wheel HP?
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