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Old 07-29-2011, 10:14 PM   #451
Odyknuck
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Well after a lot of Investigation I have finally found my problem of the strange MAP trace oddity and Tuning. My Greddy Pressure Sensor was "T" ed into the Wastegate line that is connected after the Intercooler DUH!. I connected to the Intake manifold between the throttle body and the heads. Now I am able to see Vacumme and Boost, so the tuning begins. Just with an hour or so of playing around with it showed an improvement over what i had before.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:56 AM   #452
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Oh wow! Well good job finding that little mistake. Congratulations.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:22 PM   #453
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This thread brings back memories... So an update to my experimenting with o2 sensor manipulation: it worked as I described in one of my threads, years ago, but it seems Split Second actually created a device that does the same thing, only better without the side effects my method introduced.

It's called the Enricher and it taps into the front o2 signal wire and reference voltage wire. When activated, it pulls down the voltage so the ECU sees a leaner voltage than the sensor is producing. So, your ECU will actually start adding fuel in boost. Then, it's a matter of adding fuel in your emanage maps to balance it back out to zero. I installed mine right after where the o2 plugs into the harness, under the hood. I followed the directions for it to use it's own built in map sensor so it activates at about 2psi. This is also nice as it works in the part throttle situations when things get really lean. Drivability is HUGELY improved.

One thing to note, on my car, I could only get to 13:1, so I added the wires for the second sensor (the enricher can control two o2 sensors). Now, it will pull the reading as far as I want.

Going back, I would probably opt for it to be activated off a 5v signal, then I could have the emanage control it and possible turn it off as I get over 4000 rpm.

If anyone is interested, I can take a photo or 2 and explain further (it makes more sense if you are familiar with the unit and read the manual.) But It is so nice to not be eyeing my afr gauge all the time in fear.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:12 AM   #454
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sorry for bringing up this thread.

I have 079800-5750 map sensor.
It JDM legacy b4 TwinTurbo. This is Denso sensor.
I cannot find in analog pressure input correct type to select. So my pressure readings are not real.

IT's same sensor found in 2001+ wrx impreza. Have someone found solution to this?

I tried most of them (there are many) but none works exactly. Close but not so.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:13 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #522 View Post
This thread brings back memories... So an update to my experimenting with o2 sensor manipulation: it worked as I described in one of my threads, years ago, but it seems Split Second actually created a device that does the same thing, only better without the side effects my method introduced.

It's called the Enricher and it taps into the front o2 signal wire and reference voltage wire. When activated, it pulls down the voltage so the ECU sees a leaner voltage than the sensor is producing. So, your ECU will actually start adding fuel in boost. Then, it's a matter of adding fuel in your emanage maps to balance it back out to zero. I installed mine right after where the o2 plugs into the harness, under the hood. I followed the directions for it to use it's own built in map sensor so it activates at about 2psi. This is also nice as it works in the part throttle situations when things get really lean. Drivability is HUGELY improved.

One thing to note, on my car, I could only get to 13:1, so I added the wires for the second sensor (the enricher can control two o2 sensors). Now, it will pull the reading as far as I want.

Going back, I would probably opt for it to be activated off a 5v signal, then I could have the emanage control it and possible turn it off as I get over 4000 rpm.

If anyone is interested, I can take a photo or 2 and explain further (it makes more sense if you are familiar with the unit and read the manual.) But It is so nice to not be eyeing my afr gauge all the time in fear.
I'm interested to hear more about this. Anyone else use this? With it hooked via its own map sensor, is there no way to turn it off after a certain point (like you said, 4k rpms)? I read the online manual but was confused on setting it up.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:03 PM   #456
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I too am interested in 522's experiences with the device. I just picked one of these Enrichers up for 75 bucks, new still in the box. So I will be adding it to my Offroad Car.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:17 AM   #457
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522, what Greddy output would you use to trigger the Enricher? I see you could only get down to 13 AFR with one sensor. I can not use my other O2 sensor as it is bypassed with a n RC circuit and the ECM always sees a constant signal showing the CAT to be working properly. Keep in mind my application is on my offroad car with out a CAT. Another thought was to just activate the enricher with DIP #5 and set it up to run at lets say 13 AFR all the time and then fine tune for boost. I am not concerned about fuel economy so that would not be an issue.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:34 PM   #458
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Well since the untimely demise of my 00RS to a drunk in a Jeep Cherokee I am no longer MAP based with the replacement 99RS (MAF). However, I have had experiences with the enricher and have been working on an upgrade to a full standalone or working with the EMU - then I hit a few things that made me realize I do not need a standalone as I now have the method to turn the EMU into a suitable substitute.

There is now a proven method to trip the ECU into OL without the headaches of messing with the O2 sensor - TPS. Using the design of the EMU and the capability of the EMU allows you to trigger OL effectively and immediately at the onset of boost - but requires the MAP sensor option for the EMU. Using a dipole switch that is activated by the EMU the ECU sees the 80%+ from the accelerator and immediately moves the ECU to OL. Nothing gradual, no tinkering, just boost triggered OL.

Second piece of this is my excel based program that takes the data from the ECU explorer and EMU and will collate this into a graphical representation of what your EMU maps should look like. Simply load my data logs into the program and 10 seconds later I know what values to enter in my various EMU maps.

I also have purchased a MIMO 720s remote touch screen which allows me to both view and modify my EMU/ECU data realtime. Not truly needed for a standalone, but it does eliminate the need for some gauges and allows me to remote mount my laptop and is safer since I don't have to crane my neck around to read the laptop screen.

Lastly, with the OL/CL issue resolved for boost I am left with how to deal with the ECU learning problems. Well, this is easily taken care of by wring the save power line to the ignition lines. Basically this kills the ECU memory each and everytime you turn off the car effectively leaving you with a baseline ECU map (ST/LT and IGN) that should theoretically never be off more than 1-2% before you turn off the car again and wipe the trim/ign data. This means you now have consistent and practically unchanged tunes on a stock ECU.

Put all this together and you have an argument against going full standalone when piggybacking your ECU with an EMU with MAP sensor. HUGE plus to this is that you retain off boost factory drivability that is very difficult to tune on a standalone. So if you are street tuning and not running the track competitively this solution emulates a standalone for a fraction of the price and half the tune-time.

*** should also note that I have the AFR guage logging to the EMU for logging/tuning as well.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:09 PM   #459
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Sounds like you've spent oodles of time on this but any chance you're interested in sharing this excel spreadsheet?

I'm currently in the process of tuning my RS and have opted for the pressure switch method just to give it a whirl.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:04 AM   #460
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svenghali what Greddy output are you using to trigger the ECM into Open Loop? I looked briefly into this and did not see a suitable one to use. Details man, details lol. Wiring etc.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:56 PM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyknuck View Post
svenghali what Greddy output are you using to trigger the ECM into Open Loop? I looked briefly into this and did not see a suitable one to use. Details man, details lol. Wiring etc.
He is using this:

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f72/t1912...l-emanage.html
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:24 PM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
Sounds like you've spent oodles of time on this but any chance you're interested in sharing this excel spreadsheet?

I'm currently in the process of tuning my RS and have opted for the pressure switch method just to give it a whirl.
I can do that, but it will take a while as I am in the middle of a move and the tuning laptop is packed away. Its not at all what I would call a consumer ready version - but I can share it and teach people to use it through the thread so I only have to do it once.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyknuck View Post
svenghali what Greddy output are you using to trigger the ECM into Open Loop? I looked briefly into this and did not see a suitable one to use. Details man, details lol. Wiring etc.
I had the thoughts while I was searching for my replacement RS, just no car to validate my thoughts - when lo and behold others had already had the same ideas and confirmed them in total.

I had already determined the practice worked (verified by logs and testing), just hadn't worked out the physical execution to have it reproduce auto-magically.

I can tell you that the enricher is great - I have had experience tuning with it on my friends RST - but a pain in the ass for our particular 5wire Wideband and how our ECU handles the outputs. The main problem is that the ECU runs through additional algorithms when determining OL vs CL via O2 readings and it can take extra time for the ECU to decide OL is the right decision - this is bad, so bad for FI motors that produce gobs of torque at high compression with very advanced spark (which H motors do by design). Jamming down the throttle to bypass this is dangerous, because unless you do this at the right time, you will be fighting the O2 algorithms trying to keep fuel trims to 14.7 at full load.... so how to avoid using the O2 and how to trip the OL???

I began to think of the TPS after noticing a trend in my logs when I was playing with TPS inputs for controlling Tip In and Tip Out. Looking at my logs and running some isolation tests I was able to validate that the TPS directly and immediately controls OL - further validated somewhere, possibly by Skidd or MasterC, that OL is immediate when TPS is more than 80%. Key is immediate....with one very important note: if boost is already coming on and you jam the throttle - the O2 WILL override and confuse the system while it tries first to correct the massive swing in AFRs. BOOM. Have to find a way to initiate the TPS OL without always having to JAM the throttle while off boost....

Now there was a thread somewhere that talked about this once upon a time, but I dismissed it because the conclusion was that it throws a code because the ECU thinks there is something wrong with the TPS due to wild swings and disjointed values based on load calculations within the ECU's programming.

So not to take credit for the final solutions, the following threads contain the details and originators:

9thWonder gets the credit on this one: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f72/t1912...l-emanage.html

Final note: 9th Wonder hasn't received his car back from tuning yet, and hasn't posted any long load boost pulls. I don't have my car up and running yet to confirm that the TPS OL trick will maintain in all situations - judging from my tuning, logs and testing it should work perfectly based on load to RPM once safely in boost above 6lbs (my range of FT correction interference was from 2-6lbs of boost on a T3/T4 .68Trim)


I wont be able to vet this fully until my car is back up and running - 30days or so. But once 9thWonder has his car back I can instruct him on what and how to log to confirm this once and for all.

ThatGUy gets the credit for the ECU Reset: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f72/t1857...ashed-ecu.html

The ECU reset function works too and is very important - FT fights while going into boost are made dangerously worse by the ridiculous FT stores the ECU keeps. Having the ECU essentially never hold FT memory reduced dangerous conditions by a metric F^*K tonne. My logs would show the ECU fighting the OL despite TPS input, load and manifold pressure all the way to 6lbs (occasionally 8lbs) when the FT stores were over 6%. Using my program you could see the FT corrections going nucking futs where the ECU was fighting the boost conditions with O2 inputs based on the stored FT. Reset the ECU, run a log and the program would show me that all those areas were now too rich and in the 9.5-10.2 range, but in OL! So yeah, killing the ability of the ECU to store FT data is key. There is no guarantee the TPS fix above will always work if the ECU is storing up wild FT data that will override your TPS/Load inputs and fight to stay in CL.

Now as ThatGuy mentions in his thread- this will remove all long cycle ECU trouble codes because it will always be clearing the registers. However, these are nuisance codes and typically the codes you will always see with a modified motor. These codes are typically just telling you that your car could be running cleaner please check x sensor. The more "catastrophic" codes (misfires, sensor failures, excessive this or that, et all) are on the fast cycle registers and will still alert you during your drive cycle. Being that in a standalone you typically don't have OBDII read back functions anyhow - this is no loss to me. I run a scanner that actively tells me what OBD codes I am running and logs it. Even if you don't have a logger, just checking your Scanguage or Skidd's Tracker or others, just jot the codes down before shutting down.



----wow, that was wordy, hopefully that helps!

Last edited by svenghali; 05-14-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:16 PM   #463
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Interesting. So the key to the FTs overiding the TPS bypass is to reset the factory ECU each time you start the engine? In regards to the TPS relay concept, here's a thought. By using the Greddy sensor output on the analog input of the EMU I would think that you could do away with the relay and connect the output signal direct to the TPS signal to the factory ECU thru a diode (to prevent feedback). Then scale the analog output so it only provides the 4.7VDC to the EMU when it's above the Greddy pressure sensor voltage value of 0-.5 PSI. Otherwise it would stay at 0 VDC and allow the TPS signal to operate normally.
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Old 05-14-2013, 03:56 PM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyknuck View Post
Interesting. So the key to the FTs overiding the TPS bypass is to reset the factory ECU each time you start the engine? In regards to the TPS relay concept, here's a thought. By using the Greddy sensor output on the analog input of the EMU I would think that you could do away with the relay and connect the output signal direct to the TPS signal to the factory ECU thru a diode (to prevent feedback). Then scale the analog output so it only provides the 4.7VDC to the EMU when it's above the Greddy pressure sensor voltage value of 0-.5 PSI. Otherwise it would stay at 0 VDC and allow the TPS signal to operate normally.
Hello, I am 9thwonder from the RS forums. I still haven't gotten my car back from the tuner but will update when I get it back.

Also, I thought about bypassing the relay idea similar to what you're saying but couldn't find much info on how to correctly scale back the signal to whatever the max TPS voltage is. Plus I think the way I did it gives you more fine tuned control and is really not much more difficult, if any at all.

Feel free to pm me with questions or whatever. I'll be checking this thread frequently too.
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:28 PM   #465
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I would think that all you need to do is determine what the voltage is from the Greddy sensor at .5 PSI (I believe it's 1.5 VDC) and input that value across the input range. Then set 4.7 VDC across the output side. The net result would be 0 VDC out until the input value is above the .5 PSI voltage then it would drive the TPS signal to 4.7VDC and leave it there util the input drops below the threshold again.
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:49 PM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyknuck View Post
Interesting. So the key to the FTs overiding the TPS bypass is to reset the factory ECU each time you start the engine? In regards to the TPS relay concept, here's a thought. By using the Greddy sensor output on the analog input of the EMU I would think that you could do away with the relay and connect the output signal direct to the TPS signal to the factory ECU thru a diode (to prevent feedback). Then scale the analog output so it only provides the 4.7VDC to the EMU when it's above the Greddy pressure sensor voltage value of 0-.5 PSI. Otherwise it would stay at 0 VDC and allow the TPS signal to operate normally.
This was very similar to what I had seen previously - the problem becomes that if the voltage is not correctly regulated the ECU will throw a code and put the car into limp mode.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:45 PM   #467
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Yea thats where it gets complicated. You would be sending 4.7v to the ecu ON TOP of whatever voltage the TPS is currently sending. I researched trying to find a way to clamp that voltage so that it never goes above what your max TPS voltage is (mine is actually 4.23v), but I am not that knowledgeable of electronics.

And honestly, if you are doing all that, how much better or easier is it than a $10 relay and a couple extra wires tapped into your wiring harness?

Like I said on the RS forums, it seems like it would be so easy to incorporate this function into the eManage. It seems it would be as simple as having another map, Pressure vs Throttle and instead of just tapping the TPS signal, the TPS wire would actually be intercepted by the eManage. The map would be 0's (stock tps signal unmodified) until pressure is positive in which you input your max TPS voltage into the cells. Boom, open loop.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odyknuck View Post
I would think that all you need to do is determine what the voltage is from the Greddy sensor at .5 PSI (I believe it's 1.5 VDC) and input that value across the input range. Then set 4.7 VDC across the output side. The net result would be 0 VDC out until the input value is above the .5 PSI voltage then it would drive the TPS signal to 4.7VDC and leave it there util the input drops below the threshold again.
This is what had been discussed once upon a time and like I said, you have to get the design and the values perfectly right. Another thing I noticed with TPS inputs is that they are not spot on consistent and will vary. I have seen swings of .3 volts when calibrating my TPS inputs to the EMU. Not certain if that is the EMU hardware or the mechanics of the throttle apparatus. In other non-Subaru threads people were abandoning this as a control mechanism due to this problem of randomly sending the car to limp mode (all OBDII systems have this fail-safe for throttle control loss iirc).

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Originally Posted by akfmx View Post
Yea thats where it gets complicated. You would be sending 4.7v to the ecu ON TOP of whatever voltage the TPS is currently sending. I researched trying to find a way to clamp that voltage so that it never goes above what your max TPS voltage is (mine is actually 4.23v), but I am not that knowledgeable of electronics. ...
Pretty much this. The design he explains is about as simple as it gets with fine controls that rely on inputs from the very thing you are worried about in the first place: manifold pressure.

I wish I had my car up and running to add more to the pool for determining the ins and outs of this method. For me its still just theory backed up by some hard data I have. However, that being said, looking at 9thWonder's logs it appears that it does work exactly as I thought it might.
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Old 12-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #469
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Sub'd because I just bought an emanage ultimate
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