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Old 08-15-2008, 01:35 PM   #1
Porche914WRX
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Default My 1973 Porsche 914 with Hybrid Suby engine

I have a 1973 Porsche 914 with a brand new 2.5 shortblock dressed with EJ20 intake and such. What kind of HP's can I expect using the stock but slightly modified TD04, catless exhaust with a 6" turbo twist auger type muffler (i believe the auger diameter is 2.5" and a cold air intake? For your reference, I had my old 2.0 dyno'd at Crawford Performance at 220 at the rear wheels, and wondered what gains you all think I will gain over the 2 liter in terms of HP and TQ.

The car was built over 2 years ago and I am the person who originally brought this swap idea to Renegade who at the time wanted nothing to do with Subaru's and now is acting like this is thier idea!

The car turned out better than expected... It won best of show two years ago at the German Auto Fest in Ventura Ca and has been fortunate enough to be featured in a pictorial in Excellence Magazine (June 2007).


Total cost was just over $50k, but this project can be completed for ALOT less.
All metal body
Porsche 911 suspension and brakes

The car is absolutly a blast to drive...

Attachment to pics below.
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Last edited by Porche914WRX; 09-03-2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:10 PM   #2
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Turbo or non-turbo? I assume turbo based on the 220rwhp, but you didn't explicitly say.

Assuming it is turbo, the amount of power you can crank out depends largely on how much boost you can run, which depends on the turbo you're using.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:12 PM   #3
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=914+renegade

That's funny, I thought Dana who designed and built the kit on his own personal car was the guy who brought the idea to Renegade. His car was finished in June of 2005, which is 3 years and change ago. Interesting how stories change over time.

Anyways, how much you spent or best of show or who's idea it is really isn't relevant to the actual technical question on the table. It you are still running a Td04 turbo on it, don't expect to get much past 250 rwhp out it. If you are looking for more you will need to upgrade the turbo. And if you do that, I would strongly suggest looking into a 915 or better yet a 930 conversion on it because with that kind of power you'll be able to rip the teeth right off of second gear on the 901 based 914 gearbox.
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Old 08-17-2008, 02:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porche914WRX View Post
If I could ever post attachments, I will provide pics.
No attachments allowed here. You have to use a third party source like Photobucket or Flicker...

And we would REALLY like to see it too!!!
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:00 PM   #5
Porche914WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t=914+renegade

That's funny, I thought Dana who designed and built the kit on his own personal car was the guy who brought the idea to Renegade. His car was finished in June of 2005, which is 3 years and change ago. Interesting how stories change over time.

Anyways, how much you spent or best of show or who's idea it is really isn't relevant to the actual technical question on the table. It you are still running a Td04 turbo on it, don't expect to get much past 250 rwhp out it. If you are looking for more you will need to upgrade the turbo. And if you do that, I would strongly suggest looking into a 915 or better yet a 930 conversion on it because with that kind of power you'll be able to rip the teeth right off of second gear on the 901 based 914 gearbox.
Matt,

While Dana's car was the 1st to be complete, the idea of Renegade offering a kit in the 914 is all me. In 04 I approached Renegade with the Suby idea which they shot down as quick as you can say hello. They were not interested in taking on a new motor configuration as they were just finishing up with the LS1 project. I did not want a V8 in my 914 so I asked them if I bought the EJ20, would they test it for fitment and if it fit, would they put me on the bottom of the list for the conversion process? They agreed....

Month or so goes by:
I bought the 1st engine intended for the 914 swap and it looked like fitment was not an issue. My engine was on a stand and I needed to perform other to-dos on the car prior to the engine conversion so basically nothing was happening with my car. One night Dana comes home from work and boasts that "he will kick my 914 Suby's ass with the new 400+ hp LS1 V8". I reply that I hope he will enjoy driving that beast everyday, explaining that the EJ20 might be easier to deal with as a daily driver. One week later, Dana comes home and announces he just bought a Suby EJ20 as well. Since Dana was employed by Renegade and since his type4 VW motor was leaking all over my driveway at night, he took his car to the shop and was the 1st to have the converted car with a Suby engine.

This story has never changed over time, it just was not told. However, recently Renegade has tried to take ownership of the idea and it kinda pissed me off because I was the only one that took any financial risk to see if this was even a feesible idea plus IT WAS, IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN MY IDEA!

There is some poetic justice to this...

At the German Auto Fest, the car that Renegade had lined up to be the show car demonstrating the Suby conversion never showed up. Even though Scott Mann (Renegade owner) and I don't like one another, his old business partner (Mike Johnson) and I are good friends and since Mike and Scott were still partners at the time, as a favor to Mike, I let them use my car in thier booth. Additionally, my 901 transaxle is modified (gated off first gear, and custom gearsets). And as you so kindly observed that my Best of Show and how much money was spent comments has no bearing on the question at hand, neither does the transaxle. But just as you were proud of your knowledge of the awkward Porsche transaxles, I am proud of the awards my car has received, and if others are interested in pursuing a like project, I thought it would be nice to let them know what dollar figures to expect.

Dana is a great guy and frankly, I don't know if the Suby conversion would even exist today if it were not for his initial install in his car. But if you read my previous post, I did not claim that I was the wrench behind the conversion, I simply said it was and still is my original idea. Ask Dana yourself, he will tell you the same.

Attached is a URL that you can link to. Notice the date of the 1st post. Addionally, PICS are on pages 2 and 3.

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80589



Keith

Last edited by Porche914WRX; 08-23-2008 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:42 AM   #6
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Sweet car!!
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:50 PM   #7
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Keith,
It's good to hear the other side of the story. I like to say that there are always three sides to a story. In this instance, yours, Renegade's and the truth. It does absolutely sound like you should get more credit than you generally do.

As for my other comments? I can't speak for the whole forum. However, in general we are a bunch of do it yourselfers who take great pride in building our cars. Your opening post reads like a very pretensious bragging about a car you paid someone to build for you. It just reads cocky and self righteous. If that's not how you are in real life I apologize for misinterpreting your intent. It just sounded like a bunch of chest thumping that wasn't really relevant to the question.

For the record, I didn't post anything to show off. Ask around. I don't post to make myself look good. I post to be helpful to people who are trying to accomplish something. That's why, even though your post made you sound like an arrogant arse, I still answered your question. It included some unsolicited input on the transmission because while most people here could answer your question about the engine, they wouldn't have a clue about the strength of your tranny. I guess I am guilty of being too helpful.

If you don't consider it valid feedback then dismiss it. But what I will tell you is that when the guy who built your transmission started having comeback problems with his builds, Renegade came over to my shop for their tranny work. That's right. What I do for a living is Porsche gears, LSD's and transmissions. That's it. That's my specialty. And you are damned right that I am proud of the quality of product that comes out of my shop. But I don't walk around with that as a badge of courage on my sleeve. It only comes up when it's relevant. Most of these guys know me because of my hobby, which is old JDM swaps, not what I do for a living.

So, how about we start over? Like I said, I am sorry if I misunderstood the kind of guy you are and where you are coming from. I am very familiar with your car and it is definitely a beautiful and well done project. Did you get your question answered about putting an Ej257 against Ej205 heads or is there more you are looking to figure out?
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:29 PM   #8
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Matt,

Thanks for taking the time to clear things up. In this particular case I am telling the god's honest truth. I would not put myself in a position of being called a liar over something so trivial unless it was/is indeed true. The fact that I need to be so adament is all the reason more of why the truth needs to be told. The facts are the facts and Renegade really should be more forthright in telling the story of the conception of Renegade and Subaru swaps.

As far as my first posting sounding like I am an arrogant arse, that is and was not my intent. For sake of understanding... Lets say that whatever transaxle rebuild company that Renegade used to use got ahold of one of your rebuilds and realizes where they have been making mistakes, and then starts telling everyone that they were the ones that originally figured out how to correctly rebuild a 901. Actually, you were the one that figured it out, and all they did was copy your idea... That is pretty close to what I am feeling, not exactly the same, but close. I don't need Renegade to tell the story to everyone, just the ones that ask. The truth should be easy to tell, and somehow it never gets told.

When I post a thread in a car forum, I get a little excited about what I accomplished (whether I did it myself or not). I know I am gunna get flamed for saying this, but Chip Foose doesn't build every little aspect of his awesome creations but his name is on the end product. No, I am not Chip Foose, but again not exactly the same, but close.

Lets be honest, it is not everyday that something you dreamed up gets put into production even if you are not benifiting financially from it. I should have spent as much time in my original posting as I have in the past two responses and you might not have the original perception of me that you did...

As far as my transaxle is concerned...

I HATE IT!

The 901 I have was built by a small company in Peoria Illinois (914 LTD). He did an alright job... He gated off first gear and replaced the second gearset which I believe was a "F" with a "D". I kinda understand what was done, but the end result is an extremly awkward first gear that is almost impossible to engauge at a dead stop from Neutral and a second gear that you pretty much need to slam into gear. Any ideas what is going on there would be greatly appreciated.

As far as the 2.5 with the 2.0 goodies...

I assume I will need to flash the ECU?
anything else I need to consider?

tx

Keith

Last edited by Porche914WRX; 08-19-2008 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:07 PM   #9
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I just spent the last hour on the phone with Keith. He's a really cool guy.

And to answer the one question we never covered on the phone, yes, you will want to get a new reflash on the car...
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:21 AM   #10
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Too many words for me :P

I tried talking my dad into doing this about 6 months ago when he almost bought a 914 for $500 He just doesn't need another project right now
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:20 AM   #11
Porche914WRX
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Thanks Matt!

Your advise is appreciated!!!

Next time you come to Vegas, look me up. We will have a few beers and shoot the ****.

Keith
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:15 PM   #12
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You ,or Renegade did not come up with this idea.
Prove me wrong ,and I'll give you a cookie.
Call Kennedy Engineering and see what they have to say.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:07 PM   #13
Porche914WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny p View Post
You ,or Renegade did not come up with this idea.
Prove me wrong ,and I'll give you a cookie.
Call Kennedy Engineering and see what they have to say.

Drumroll please...

Actually just got off of the phone with them. They have never built a 914 with a Subaru engine. "They only sell the components". Does the guy who invented the wooden carriage wheel get credit for polished dubs as well?

While you are removing your foot's taste from your mouth, I would like one white chocolate with macadamia nuts cookie... Please

Last edited by Porche914WRX; 08-21-2008 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:11 PM   #14
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Original Thread Post - "The car was built over 2 years ago and I am the person who originally brought this swap idea to Renegade who at the time wanted nothing to do with Subaru's and now is acting like this is thier idea! "

There are other people that have put suby's into 914's way before me. I am the one that suggested to Renegade that they offer this conversion kit.

Last edited by Porche914WRX; 08-26-2008 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:18 PM   #15
Porche914WRX
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Default Pics of the engine assembly

Some eye candy for the soul. This is a stock 2.5 shortblock that is being dressed with the 2.0's manifolds and such.

http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h5...view=slideshow
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:23 PM   #16
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Default Car Pics

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Old 08-26-2008, 08:59 PM   #17
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Keith,
Did you look into the goodies we were talking about? Drop me a line with an update.
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:12 AM   #18
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Hello Matt. Thanks for the years of good information you have provided that helped me build my cars. Your information was always correct and cogent.

Kieth, please continue with this thread. You and your car inspired me to start my own FujiFerdy project. Recall I was the guy in San Marcos CA that suggested you go to Crawford to tune your car. You and a buddy from LV were there with the car. I was so taken by it I went out and bought four [yes,4!] cheap old 914's to make one good copy using Suby power. Obviously insanity has taken root.

I am half there now and the thread helps me plan for the next steps.

Subscribe.

Mike McBride
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:18 PM   #19
Porche914WRX
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Default Welcome to the insanity

Hey Mike!

How the heck are you? You will have a ball driving the teener with some poop behind the throttle! There is zero body roll and I mean zero! Doesn't ride the smoothest, but ohhhh the cornering!

I am sending you a PM.

Hope all is well...
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:26 PM   #20
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Got the new engine back in the car yesterday. Just need to fix that speedsensor that I broke by overtightening! Connect and install the ducting and the intercooler, fill and burp with coolant, reflash ecu and I should be burning rubber once again!!!
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:50 PM   #21
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Default It's a runner

Installed everyting and it started right up. It is a bit on the rough idle, but hopefully that will smooth out with a tune.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:42 PM   #22
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The thrill of victory! Do you plan on posting pictures? BTW I never got your PM. Try michaelzmcbride@gmial.com.

See you.

Mike M
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MZM View Post
The thrill of victory! Do you plan on posting pictures? BTW I never got your PM. Try michaelzmcbride@gmial.com.

See you.

Mike M

Mike see the above posting numbers 15 and 16.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:33 PM   #24
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That really figures with Renegade. As all the other cars are v8.
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Old 09-19-2008, 02:51 PM   #25
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Glad this thread is still alive. I get so pissed that i didnt put a suby motor in my 914 that i have owned now for 14 years.

It started as a 74' 1.8FI. Now i built a 2.3 carb'd, bored, stroked, forged, valved, etc. motor out of that 1.8 and i constantly have issue with the car running properly bc of the carbs. Totally sucks ass. It has been so nice here in NNJ this summer that i have only attempted to drive the car once and it was only running on 3 cyls.

Had i spent the money to do the 205 in the car it would have been so much more reliable and much, much cheaper so i could have done my M471 clone. ugh

Sorry for the short rant

Bill Petrow - bitter 914 owner.
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